body_noquotes
"This fails to mention 2 things:
First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".
Original projections were 9-12 thousand per year, so presumably there had been no planning whatsoever for the other hundreds of thousands. These people require housing, transport, schools, benefits (they qualify for income support etc.). Was this costed when we were told how wonderful this all was?
So it's hardly surprising the government are uncomfortable on this subject as they clearly failed with even the most basic of their duties in this area. That need not imply any judgment of the situation, only that government have been, well, utterly crap in managing this."
It would also be interesting to see how the Eastern European immigration data for the UK compares with other Western European countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands.
'these people' do not qualify for income support, A8 and A2 cannot claim out of work benefits unless they've been in registered work for a year. Sorry to piss on your bonfire.
"Yeah, but how many people (de)register when they leave the country? I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them.
So it cuts both ways."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"It's a shame Mr Brown didn't take the time to explain to Ms Duffy that ""all those Eastern Europeans"" probably have a legitimate right to be in this country because they hold an EU passport, just as Ms Duffy or anyone else who is a UK passport holder has the right to move freely and work in the EU. Rarely is the distinction made between asylum seekers, immigrants and illegal immigrants.
Personally, I have no time for people who easily take a swipe at hard working low-paid legal migrants who often take jobs that unemployed UK citizens sometimes find unpalatable. The political parties and the media should not sensationalise what happened yesterday and seek to analyse why someone feels they should make a comment which, let's face it, should be left in the 20th century."
"The UK can live, surely, with 1 worker in 50 having come from eastern Europe?
Mon Sumo - not yet allowed in France and Germany."
"so what you are saying is that I'm right then reebee?
Actually, you are not quite right. Any EU citizen who has paid into national insurance for around two years qualifies for the EXACTLY the same benefits as a British worker. This includes tax credits, housing benefit etc. I'm sorry but this is utterly indisputable.
Now that's quite right, but is this factored in when we are told of the benefits of mass imported low wage labour?
It seems like a lose-lose to me. On one hand we pay our people to be out of work and on the other we subsidise poor pay through the tax and benefits system. A British worker does not break even in tax contributions until about £24k or so.
Does this not apply to migrants under the same conditions?"
"I would like to get a table showing the numbers of UK born people living in other countries in the EU. For example, I've heard estimates of between 1-2 million British people in Spain - there must be similar numbers in Portugal and France.
Again, it's difficult to get correct numbers because there are so many people working without permits in bars or as TEFL teachers."
"I would suggest given the number of Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish number plates on the cars driving UK streets that many have just arrived?
Perhaps just visiting, you say?
More likely, since our minimum wage is so high in spending power terms, (PPP figures from Low Pay commission) http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/lowpay2010/appendices3.shtml
they are seasonal workers who will drive across Europe again when the season is done.
I notice the NMW in France is (since devaluation of the pound) higher now than ours, so may be they will be grape picking in Bordeaux come July. Or perhaps I will be. Don't be thinking it's 35 hours max. working week in France. Who is checking the farms and the labourers with several jobs.
It is called freedom to work in Europe. Like it or not, I suspect it's here to stay."
Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?
"dattoria and reebee are spot on- from the Polish perspective at least the issue is that of pendulum migration: you travel back and forth from the home (Poland) country to the host (the UK), earning money when there is work there and returning home when there isn't. Most Poles have little or no desire to stay in the UK. Far from being a drain on the economy they have arguably boosted it and Mrs Duffy should rather be concerned about the scenario of if the thousands of Polish doctors, plumbers, electricians and nurses really did bugger off back to where they came from - her retirement would be considerably harder and more expensive.
By the way, here is a little something to confirm dattoria's hunch - the 11% inactive are probably no longer in the country and, as a result, aren't draining the UK's resources too much...or at least only as much as the Canucks...perhaps we should get rid of the Canadians too? and that useless bunch of scroungers in 10th place...
Rank Country of birth Employed Unemployed Inactive
1 Australia 88% 3% 8%
2 France 86% 3% 12%
3= Canada 85% 2% 13%
3= Poland 85% 4% 11%
10 UK 78% 4% 18%
source:IPPR report, 2007 http://www.ippr.org.uk/publicationsandreports/publication.asp?id=563"
"Why in hells name we have to issue all these Worker Permits for Eastern Europeans with 2.5 Million unemployed, Goodness only knows.
Dont tell me about 'Cheap Labour' These are government stats and these folks will get the Minimum Wage.
Its Maastricht again! Someone ask Cameron what he is going to do about it! It was the Tories that took us into Europe and signed up to Maastricht in 1992!
Boris also wants Cameron to give amnesty to 250,000 illegals living in London to 'get them in the system'. That will add to public sector borrowing when they claim dole and housing as part of the European Human Rights!"
"Haardvark
'First many do not bother with worker registration, especially in construction, catering and seasonal labour so the truth is as usual ""nobody really knows"".'
Well if the figures aren't to be trusted (how convenient) then how about anecdotal evidence? A friend of mine runs a small letting agency in Leeds, a couple of years ago Polish plumbers and labourers were ten a penny in our area, last year harder to find and now like hen's teeth. With the collapse of the property market and big construction contracts there simply wasn't the work so they buggered off back home.
Did you moan about the thousands of brits who went to work abroad in the construction industries during the eighties when Tebbit told them to 'get on their bike' after the Tories destroyed their livelehoods in Britain?"
"Migration flows to the money.
Here in central europe we have hundreds of thousands of workers from Ukraine, Russia, etc.
They work for low wages in occupations vacated by those of our own who headed west.
Before you get so hung up on all this, you should consider the possibility that with manufacturing, banking, etc heading to the Far East - you lot may have to get on your bikes soon..."
"There are about 280k British people in Spain, mostly retired. The difference is they can never qualify for benefits (if you are retired you cannot contribute to the social fund through wages) and don't compete for work. They don't have access to any equivalent of the NHS (they must pay health insurance).
Most live on private UK pensions and released housing equity. In fact this is why some have left because the value of Sterling has dropped 30% to the Euro. All in all, this is a massive earner for Spain, although some complain about inflated house prices."
OK, let's trust the official figures 9-12k PA vs 703k. The point still stands; the government did not plan for this.
"Surrey dude
well i personaly have no time for some one who has there head in the sand and doesnt know/care what is going on.
For Brown to say there are a million here ( made up round fig ) and a million brits are abroad is a total whitewash of the facts to patronise one of his own people.
Name me another country where immigration has had such an effect on localised communities. A million Brits spread throughout EU is different to a million EU in England ( 90 %)
explain to me, If we are all equal why a E.E can come here and claim our family benefits and then send there family home and still claim all the benefits and the real kicker is when they leave they are allowed to keep all the benefits ?
check it out, its a fact.
there are now more babies being born to Poles and Portugese than to Brits the pressure on the social services is extreme.
drinking driving is now basically anti social, not for eastern europeans its not.
try Boston lincs, it has a massive population of eastern europeans 60 odd different languages spoken in a town of 200,000 ish
try the local hospital where if you are local you have to wait at the back of the que whilst others get seen first cos they want to get rid of the interpretors at 80-100 pound an hour.
ive lived in europe and there isnt any where else affected as much by immigration as the UK, and your subtle hard working low paid innocent migrant worker is frankly bollocks, speak to the Police forces, social services, caravan site owners ect, you might get a different picture, not twisted news articles that paint a pretty picture."
True, the government didn't plan for this, and it's another reason for slapping Labour round a bit at the election. But I don't see that the numbers are actually a problem for Britain and I'm certainly not going to vote for anyone proposing punitive action to deprive us of people who make - in my eyes - a generally positive contribution to our economcy and society.
Anything that means I can now get Zywiec polish beer in this country cheaply is a good thing by me.
There's quite a big difference between wealthy Brits moving abroad to retire / educated Brits moving abroad to fill specialist jobs and predominantly unskilled migrant workers coming here to provide cheap labour for Labour backers. To pretend otherwise is simply misleading. Sadly the Tories are peddling the idea that you can somehow equate the two as well.
"I'm still looking for the facts
That is: how much immigrants are costing the NHS
how much it is costing us in benefits and pensions
how many school places and at what cost
how much housing is taken up by immigrants
how much crime is due to immigrants
how many illegal immigrants there are
why so many are trying to get out of France and into Britain"
Whatever the figures, immigration bings the whingers out of the woodwork - work-shy at that.
"haardvark

And this is a bad thing, how? Surely if someone pays NI, they are then allowed to ""reap the benefits"" for having contributed to the system? Or are you advocating that a Polish immigrant who has been working in the UK for two years plus, contributed to NI, paid taxes, set up home and built up a life doesn't deserve the benefits of the system should he or she lose their jobs or be unable to work for some reason? Seriously? What would you do - send them back to Poland once they've stopped being useful?"
"Could someone please tell me if the figures for Eastern European migrants include dependents or are they just those available for work.
I have heard of many stories of Romanian 'gypsies' flooding certain towns in England (eg Peterborough) causing no end of social disruption. Are these stories true? If so , what the hell is going on. It is not right for 'liberal' thinking people to castigate people who have to live close to some of the less welcome immigrants.
I have a belief close to the Green Party in that this country can only support 30m people and that constant , unsustainable, economic growth is not the way forward. It is my view that economic migration, welcoming cheap labour, is not helpful to social cohesion and integration."
"No. That wasn't the point. The point is people who earn low wages do not make a net contribution to the economy, especially when social support is taken into consideration (and you could argue money sent home is lost to the economy too). Therefore it does not make sense to import more low wage workers, when you already have people to take these roles. those other people do not suddenly disappear either, therefore it's a double whammy and effectively a taxpayer subsidy to low-wage to business.
Immigration only works if it releases labour to be more productive. I see no evidence of this happening. In fact it cannot happen during a recession. The evidence points in the other direction in fact as GDP/capita has fallen since 2005, whereas it's increased in most of the EU.
There are many ways you can grow an economy. Germany post war invested in machinery and education and they are the world's second largest exporter. We opted for immigration and we are not. This is hardly surprising as growth by immigration is pure 3rd world economics, the reason why a farmer wants as many strong sons in many places in the world whereas the developed world mechanized.
We've been here and done this before remember. The mills of Lancashire were fed by workers from Pakistan in the 1960s to keep Labour costs low. The mills went anyway and the net result is two unemployed communities instead of one.
I just want us to learn from our post-war mistakes and use the resources we already have effectively. The resumption of mass migration only happened in the last few years, is anyone seriously arguing those jobs didn't get done without it? That would require a massive failure of memory."
I'm sorry but immigration is out of control in the UK. I'm all in favour of controlled and planned immigration but what we have had in the last decade or so has been neither controlled nor planned. There are huge numbers of jobless and poor immigrants in the UK at the moment and it's unhealthy.
"_AT_Haardvark
Then surely the question you need to be asking is why generic EU folk are getting the jobs rather than British people, I didn't realise we were deliberately 'importing' anyone."
"People really need to distinguish between EU and NON EU immigration!!!!!!!!
EU - you can't do anything about it; it is the Tories fault as they signed the treaty! However it means we can travel around the continent without being interrogated like NON EU citiizens
NON EU - Labour is very, very tough on these people! Overly harsh in my opinion to make up the fact that they cant do anything about people from the EU"
"How many of the people leaving the UK are retirees who are not seeking work in other countries?
How many entering the UK are not looking for work? Not many I would think."
"Whilst I could not care less who comes here as long as they work/contribute to society these figures are clearly wrong. Most of the Poles I know work cash in hand and are invisible on the radar for instance so it is safe to say you can add a few hundred thousand to that figure.
If ID cards were compulsory for ALL we would know exactly what was going on, perhaps to a better degree than now and could properley plan Health, Education etc provisions better. Whilst I am sure some are happy for anyone to come here, live in the shadows and be exploited I would rather more control, better for everyone."
"The way migrant labour is used to insult British people in the bottom quintile is as vile as any xenophobia faced by Eastern Europeans. Not only that, these insults - ""they're lazy, they think they're too good for crap jobs, etc"" - betray a lack of understanding.
The migration balance proves that Eastern Europeans, overwhelmingly, are not settling in this country.
This fact is used by many to indicate that the debate is overblown: ""hey, they're all leaving, what's your problem?""
But the migration balance is at the very heart of the problem.
Eastern Europeans come to the UK to work for set periods of time. As soon as their pockets are full, they saying goodbye to the poor living and working conditions they've endured in the UK and start afresh in their home country.
They never intended to live 12 to a house in Slough for the rest of their lives. They came to work hard in poor conditions for as long as they could stand it, and then go home with their reward.
But here's the key factor:
The wages they earned in the UK will stretch a long way in Poland or Lithuania and will enable them a lifestyle they would not have had access to in the UK.
In effect, they've been working for greater rewards than their low-paid, low-skilled British co-workers.
Unlike their British co-workers, they have a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
And we're wondering why they seem so industrious and uncomplaining by comparison?
It's because they have greater incentives to be industrious and uncomplaining.
The influx of labour from Eastern Europe has had the greatest benefit for the well off - for business, for middle-class people looking for cheap tradesmen, etc.
When the lower orders point out that the situation doesn't have any benefits for them, those who do benefit cry ""Bigots! Lazy! Ignorant!""
It's an attitude that crosses political lines. Norman Tebbit will defend Eastern European workers in the Telegraph as much as a Guardian editorial.
But it seems there's nobody to defend British people on the bottom of the pile."
"haardvark:

The figure of UK nationals officially resident in Spain for 2009 was 374,600 an increase of 227 per cent over the 2001 figure of 107,000 - nowhere near the 1 - 2 million quoted elsewhere but, nonetheless, a figure that is increasing year-on-year. And, I suspect, that the real figure is at least two or three times as high, owing to the huge number that don't apply for a residents permit, especially those who stay for, say, six months of every year.
As is the law, Brits have exactly the same rights to benefits as Spanish citizens - my kids get the subsidy for school books and have, in the past, received free school meals - just like their Spanish classmates.
I can assure you that we are entitled to free treatment under the excellent Spanish national health service and that I personally cost it quite a lot of money.
If you don't work, you don't pay national insurance and you aren't entitled to a state pension based on your contributions (there is a non-contributory one, if you can be bothered to go hunting for it) but if, as claimed, the majority of British are retired, then they will have a full pension based on their contributions in the United Kingdom and - importantly for a pensioner - free access to the health service.
Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness."
"'aeddan' at 4.17 is the AUTHOR of the IPPR report he quotes, none other than Danny Ishkandaria.
The IPPR is a shill for New Labour. A year or so back it reported that all of the EE nationals had gone home!
Today, following Brown having expressed his true opinion on immigration and its opponents, it reported that perhaps the PC left have been too harsh in calling anyone who disagreed with NuLabor's open doors immigration policy 'racist' or 'bigot'"
"Nice try, PigFace2 - I am with you wholeheartedly, but I've long since given up trying to argue that one. I am a Brit who has been living outside the UK but in the EU for the last 20 years. In that time, not one person - not one, anywhere in the EU - has ever so much as looked at me as anything particularly unusual. I'm not retired, nor anywhere near it. I have, to use the language of Little England, in my most recent country of residence ""stolen a job"" from a Czech person. And no-one has ever even questioned it.
Let's just face it: the Brits are an island race, and the biggest island problem they have is the one in their heads. There was never a good idea had anywhere south of Dover and anyone over the sea is a foreigner, a potential job-thief, benefit-scrounger, health-tourist, and certainly no good for anything.
Once you have accepted that, you'll find it a lot easier reading some of the comments in this kind of thread.
God, it's depressing, isn't it?"
Some more facts; since eastern Europeans were allowed to live and work in the UK, the amount of women sex-trafficked into the UK has doubled, and amount of children sex-traffiked into the UK has tripled (Office of National Statistics figures)
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"Haardvark-No A8 nationals or their families are entitled to social housing or benefits unless they are working and are registered on the Worker Registration Scheme. Once they have completed 12 months of registered work, they are not entitled unless they are working, unless they stop work because of illness or become ?involuntarily unemployed?. This requirement lapses after 5 years of working
You don?t have to register if you are registered with HMRC as self-employed but you will not get any benefits or be entitled to social housing if you stop work.
If you are not registered either as an employee or self-employed you and your family are not entitled to benefits or social housing.
The rules are even more restrictive for A2 nationals. (Romania and Bulgaria)
So in other words Eastern European migrants only have a right to social housing and benefits if they are working/have worked and are paying/have paid tax and NI. This is not a requirement for UK nationals. I would be interested to see the reaction if it were."
"_AT_OFPrague

That would be those bastards from Folkestone and all points west then ;o)
I've been an immigrant in my host country (in SE Asia) for over five years, and while no-one's complained about me stealing a local job, people do complain about migrants from countries in the region. What really pisses me off, though, are the british ex-pats whinging on about how the 'immigrants' are killing Britain when they themselves haven't lived there since the nineties, being 'immigrants' themselves.
Grrrrr!!!"
"This debate could go on forever...
I'm pleased the Guardian has chosen to publish bare facts, even if these stats can't give you the full picture.
I'm also pleased there are people on here outlining the benefits of immigration, Brits being able to live/travel wherever they like in the EU, and highlighting the need to distinguish between the different types of immigration.
Hammy966 - I grew up in Boston, Lincs, and listening to the locals bang on about 'foreigners' all day long made me really angry, and now I visit Lincolnshire as rarely as I can. However, over the years I've come to realise that the people there (and elsewhere) do have a genuine reason to raise the immigration issue - the local population has been massively transformed in a very short space of time.
I live in London now where I think it's easy to see all the benefits of immigration, however I can understand the anger of some people in certain parts of the country, where the benefits can be less tangible (although I believe still as real) and the negatives more so."
"_AT_atlantisguy

Compulsory? You mean like the way it is compulsory to declare earnings or to not enter the country illegally? If someone breaks one law why wouldn't they break another, why wouldn't they just not have an ID card and why wouldn't rogue employers turn a blind eye to this?
Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless. This is why many of us are so against them. Because they are pointless unless they work in this way we have to assume that this is how will eventually be used, regardless of current denials."
"OFPrague,
Nicely put!
I'm a Brit who found work in another EU country after my work area
(IT) caught a distinct cold after 2000. I could curse over the South Africans
who ""flooded"" the IT world in the UK in my speciality - particularly as they were welcomed in the UK, but Brits, like my daughter, were not allowed work permits in SA.
But I don't, because the EU gave me an opportunity to work outside the UK.
Due to the EU, many Brits have found work in the EU abroad, and a brilliant thing this is too - to our mutual enrichment.
Good luck to the young Poles etc. who have been happy to drive buses and pick vegetables in East Anglia and act as flight attendants on Ryanair etc.
These little Englander, xenophobic anti-East European workers in the UK types should visit Poland - they might understand a bit better why Polish young people are happy to graft in the UK - at least for a while.
And it has been greatly to the advantage of the UK - which did not pay for the education of these workers.
On the other hand things are improving rapidly in Poland - and many will return to their homeland.
The UK has always benefitted from immigrants - nothing has changed.
An Island race always needs new blood and new ideas."
The basis of this is really our desire for cheap goods & our unwillingness to to take on the appaling pay & conditions that are necessary to provide them. No one asks why we dont have clothing factories in this country to make the clothes we buy, because ultimately we know we dont want to be the ones making them. The majority of jobs unskilled EU labourers take on are ones no one British will take, but ones the employers wont pay more for because it will price them out of a massively uneven market.
"I've lived in France for the last 20 years having left UK in 1989. My eldest son was born in UK and my 4 other children were born in France. Would my 4 younger kids be regarded as ""froggies"" should they return to ""Blighty""?
It's a fact that there is a ""black economy"" with people working undeclared and shows a further problem in what is a complex immigration situation. This problem is evident in France too! The major difference is that Brits emmigrating, in the main, do so to retire, whereas those coming into UK are coming to work.
Any future government needs to re-think and fix the immigration question in a sensible, firm and fair way."
"Chriswr:-
""Unless you want Police randomly stopping us in the street asking us for our ID then ID cards are pointless.""
Not so. The police in Germany (according to a constitution agreed by the allied powers, incuding the UK) are not allowed to stop people at random and ask for their ID cards - but Germans must have an Ausweis (ID card) by law - and also be registered as living at a particular address.
On the other hand 99% of Germans would wish to retain the current cradle to grave, every 10 year renewable photo ID card system (the first one is free at 18).
An efficient and effective ID and residence registration system helps to prevent illegal immigration and people stealing your identity - amongst numerous other benefits (negligible false ID fraud for one).
That's why Germany has few illegal immigrants despite pretty open borders.
The pople who moan over illegal immigration also moan over ID cards - fully illogical"
"When my mom came to this benign, tolerant, fair-minded country she was told she needn't bother applying for quite a lot of jobs, and that herself, blacks and dogs weren't wanted as tenants of vacant flats. She did what Poles and Eastern Europeans by the thousand are doing now: worked hard, paid her taxes, obeyed the law, got on with her life.
It seems bitterly ironic to me that a lady named Duffy has said intolerant things about Eastern Europenas: Duffy is an Irish name, and my dear old mom was Irish.
It is very sad that politicians are running scared of saying boo to working-class Labour supporters when they say intolerant things. I think Brown was right to call her a bigot, and she ought to cast her mind back to the No Irish Need Apply and No Blacks No Dogs No Irish days, which aren't too far off in the past."
Immigration is not a technical problem. This is a mental problem and English problem. Many of Poles came to the UK as a normal European country, but now they found this economy in the state similar to Polish financial system in seventies, ruled by communists. They also can find terrible level of education and plenty of people have been living on benefits for years. Additionally they can now see that even politicians from the ?left? are afraid to explain what xenophobia is. In few years they can come back to Poland as they soon can feel that UK is not a part of Europe. In such circumstances the strongest discourse has Griffin... but he should think twice before he gives any money to immigrants to make them back to their countries of origin. He must spare some money for future generations to rebuild London after his fall...
"dattoria says :-
"" I am British but live in Germany. Yet the UK government is not aware of this as I haven't informed them. ""
You are being a bit naive here.
Your passport was not ""swiped"" or read by a machine when leaving/entering Germany(Schengen) or the UK?
The airline or ferry company was not obliged to relay its data to the powers that be?
Within the EU there is a lot of data sharing going on for anti-terrorism and other reasons.
There is a ""logging in"" and ""logging out"" system in the UK, but it is not fully operational - depends on your travel mode.
If you live (legally) permanently in Germany then the German gov. will know all about you - angemeldet and so on - and for many purposes will share this info. with the UK Gov. when requested."
"_AT_Xanderharris
Great post. Very perceptive."
"One of the myths regarding immigration/emigration is that UK emigrants are largely retirees.
May be so as regards France and Spain.
Not so in Germany. Full of well educated Brits who find it far more congenial than the UK.
Instead of worrying about the economically useful east Europeans who once
came to the UK in great numbers, it might be a better idea to focus on this continuing brain drain.
Winding down manufacturing industry in the UK gave many Brits no alternative than to find work in high-tech Germany.
Few wish to return to the UK amongst those I know in this category.
A shame - maybe a return to high-tech engineering would not be such a bad idea."
"haardvark:

...and they also invited a lot of 'guest workers' to immigrate and help rebuild their economy, many of whom stayed and raised families with German nationality, just like in the UK."
"In our population of 61m, it's the 201,000 (3.3%) who came this year who make everything wrong.
Brown did indeed call a spade a spade."
"What no one seems to notice is that Eastern European immigration is about to end. How do I know this? Demographics.
Most of the Eastern European immigrants were young, between ages 20-25. Approximately 19 years ago, the birth rate in Eastern Europe began to plummet.
You can go to a 1991 New York Times article to see how much it was dropping (the birth rate continued to fall after the article was written).
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/31/world/birth-rates-plummeting-in-some-ex-communist-regions-of-eastern-europe.html?scp=1&sq=%22eastern%20europe%22%20birth%20rate%201990%201991&st=cse
Ironically, the immigration will stop just as the UK baby boomers start to retire. In addition, Easter Europeans of the A8 will be allowed unfettered access to Germany and Austria next year, and many will prefer to emigrate to a neighboring country rather than to the UK. All the while, as Eastern European economies improve relative to the UK, the incentive to emigrate will diminish."
"As everyone has to have a National Insurance Number to work in the UK and the government issue the numbers and record the payment of contributions, they should know exactly how many people are working in the UK from which foreign country.
It would be interesting to learn exactly how many people born within the UK are resident in each foreign country.
It is ironic that the west's attacks on Eastern Europe for not allowing people to freely leave has been replaced by a pathetic whingeing now that they are free to do so.
What hypocrites we are!"
By the way... there is soon the anniversary of Polish Constitution of May 3, 1791. It was created by the rich nation established not only by Poles and Lithuanians but also by the immigrants: German, Jewish, Dutch and British immigrants that in their countries (if they had them) could only dream about parliamentarianism, religious tolerance and public opinion. Look when immigration to Poland stopped... the end of consumption and foreign governments... Think about poor proud Britain today.
"NYC945:

..and then the Romanians and Bulgarians gain freedom of movement around 2014, and this whole row will kick off yet again..."
Forget about the Poles, what about all those blasted Saxons taking jobs away from hardworking Angles?! And do not get me started on the Normans with their Norman number tags and weird saucey foods!
"These figures are totally worthless, the govenment by its own admission has No Idea who is in this country.
Youre not going to save 'Bigot' Brown with this nonsense!"
"Guzzidave - you are quite right about the Spanish rules and that many of the retirees don't bother to learn the language. Consequently the minute they need any medical treatment they book a cheap flight home and get treatment in the UK. As a result many people living outside the UK (especially the elderly) still need to be factored into the infrastructure requirements as well as UK residents so this 'equal numbers in and out' doesn't wash.
My favourite moment when living in Spain waiting for a friend to arrive at the airport was listen to a British guy in his 70's who complained that 'England has gone to the dogs blah blah...'. In an attempt to change the conversation, I asked if he was waiting for a relative to arrive. He was waiting for his wife as she had been 'home' (ie the UK) for her final appointment with her consultant after a hip replacement operation earlier in the year. I asked if she hadn't considered having it in Spain. 'Oh no, the doctors speak Spainish here you know'. I laughed for a week."
"""Please can somene also define the difference between an 'expat' and a 'migrant'? Are British people 'expats' living in Spain or are they 'migrants'? What do Spanish people call them?""
I'd rather not quote what the Spaniards call them. These 'expats', in general, can't speak Spanish, don't pay local income taxes, don't assimilate and generally live in their ghettos. There are an estimated 1.2 million UK born people living in Spain. Spain is an EU country and so they have every right to live there, just as other EU citizens have the right to live in the UK.
It just amazes me when I hear all this talk of 'immigrants' to the UK, whereas when UK born people migrate to somewhere else, they're referred to politely as 'expats'."
"Isn't this escaping the point?
Eastern Europeans come here because there are jobs to be had and they are generally well regarded.
That's why employers prefer them, not because they're cheap but because they turn up on time, they turn up and do an honest day's work.
The reason became clear to me some ten years ago when I taught a class of european refugees. Having fled a war zone, been plonked in a strange country where many did not speak the language, if anyone hd a right to climb up the walls they did. Yet their behaviour was exemplary. And they worked harder than their native counterparts.
Not just from eastern Europe but from very other part.
It was the way they were brought up. Whilst ours are very poorly brought up and given every excuse for under-achieving.
The lib/left have ruined generations with their new child-raising methods, giving them rights they have not earned and bringing them up on the basis that they have a right to a job and they don't have to work hard.
Unless we stop this Supernanny type molly-coddling and return to methods that work, or are allowed to by removing restrictive laws, generations will continue to find they cannot compete with people abroad.
There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them."
"_AT_Chriswr
Obviously the ID on its own is not the SOLE tool that can be used. I really don't know why people are scared of them, given they willing to spill their life on social networking sites, store loyalty card etc etc etc. As per usual Brits are scared of change."
"""There will even come a time when Britons will no longer be able to work abroad, as Brown boasted recently. Nobody will want them.""
Of course not. Nobody will want them because they won't be able to speak the local language."
"Optimist99 and OfPrague, good to see there's some sanity out there after yesterday's media circus! Gillian Duffy's comments said a lot more about the petty, narrow-minded, spiteful DailyMaily attitudes of a fair swathe of the British population than Gordon Brown.
Hammy 966, you say that you can't compare immigrants from the new EU countries and Spain, but why is it okay for Brits to move to Spain in large numbers, live in their little British enclaves, refuse to integrate, speak the language or make any attempt to contribute to Spanish life and culture? Why is okay for Brits living in Spain to do nothing for their adopted country but Poles, Czechs, Lithuanian, etc to get abuse from the gutter press every day just because they want to earn a living (unlike many Brits, who sit on their lardy backsides all day). Why are Brits living in Spain 'expats' but workers from the former Eastern Bloc just 'immigrants', with all the negative connotations this word is acquiring? Why is it okay for Brits in Spain to demand water for golf courses from local politicians (not exactly a priority in one of Europe's driest countries) and whinge about 'illegals' on the comments page of the Daily Fail while the same expats kick up a fuss because their ILLEGAL homes are knocked down by the authorities? Why is there one rule for ignorant, judgmental, sanctimonious, xenophobic and arrogant Brits, and another for young people with drive, ambition, initiative and education, from the former Eastern Bloc?"
"Hammy. There are other countries in the EU that have far more immigrants than we do, and there are other countries which have to support more immigration despite being far poorer - Italy for example, has very poor areas with low employment etc. but is inundated with people coming in from Africa.
sshield - noone will want them because they'll all have nowt but a Citizenship GCSE and an NVQ in Basic Waste Management.
Vino - hear, hear.
I think the fact that today's Sun had to accompany the ""bigotgate"" coverage with a definition of ""bigot"" is telling.
QBalloo - please don't play the ""we're all immigrants"" card. It never wins against these people. Plus the Saxons were mercenaries hired by the Romans until the Romans ran out of bling and hoes to pay them with - they had no right to be here at the time, and to use them to back up the ""it's a melting pot"" argument is like slapping a Chinese person on the back and trying to strike up conversation about how rudding charming those Mongol hordes were."
"Curious to follow the question of the payoff of belonging to the EU and belonging to other exchange agreements.
How many Brits are working abroad in each of these other countries?
How many people listed in these numbers were born abroad of British parents working abroad?
Is it possible to know the qualification of Brit working abroad? Is there a general flow of everyone moving ""up"" to an economy where we earn more for our relative qualifications?
Our our markets simply broadening for some groups? Are there ""shortage"" elsewhere in the world for skilled workers put out of work here? Do we have numbers for any of these or are we dependent on guess-work?"
"Dfic1999
You and the other complainers can't see the forest for the trees.
True, Romanians and Bulgarians may move to anywhere in the EU in 2014. However, young Romanians and Bulgarians have already emigrated en masse to southern Europe, and Romania (birth rate 1.40) and Bulgaria (birth rate 1.32)are shrinking faster than almost any other country on the planet.
One of the reasons why so many Poles came in 2004 was because of a mini baby boom in the early 1980s (many of whom are now having kids, another short-lived phenomenon that people are whining about).
This whole controversy will completely disappear in a year or two, again, just as the UK baby boomers are retiring.
source: UN Population Division at http://esa.un.org/unpp/index.asp"
NYC945 - you might be right re. birth rates..but it's not going stop people complaining about the next bunch of migrants just as they've done about the Poles (and the Asians, and the West Indians, and the Irish and the Jews...) in the past. It's a stuck record.
"_AT_Guizzdave
>>Of course, if you want to use the health service or to take advantage of any other benefits on offer (and they are different to the benefits in the UK) you do have to be able to speak, read and write the Spanish language and, very importantly, fill out your annual tax return (the declaración). And the vast, vast majority of British ex-pats in Spain simply can't be bothered. They live in British communities where they don't need to learn another language and are ritually and routinely ripped-off for their laziness.<<
On so its like not British NHS document I had the other day whereby at the end it states translation of this document is availible in a spanish, french, turkish, polish, urdu, hindi, bengali, and chinese mandarin then?
Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus..."
I think you will find Austria and Germany will de-fault on the so called 2011 "opening up" of their labour markets..The Austrian press in strongly against it.
"dfic1999
Don't forget the Romans and the Saxons and the Vikings and the Normans......"
"It really is sickening...
I 've been living, working and PAYING taxes in UK for 3 years now. I'm skilled, educated, hardworking and unlike some of my british workmates don't take sick leave every month.And although I'm very well aware of the fact that there are eastern europeans who abuse the system the majority of us work hard and obey the rules..
I wouldn't even try to convince anyone that we are any good I'm just really fed up with the insults throwing at us at every occasion just because we are white and it doesn't make you racist.. just maybe a bigot but then even prime minister will have to appoligise for telling the truth.."
When the new succession countries joined the EU, Germany, France and Austria did not give them automatic rights to work in their countries. What did the 'economic growth' obsessed BROWN government do, just opened the doors with no restrictions. Of course this would undercut the salaries of the previously unskilled traditional labour supporters, ie the working class. The results of which we are seeing now in this election. Unfortunately, this has now lead to a rise in right wing parties and was totally predictable. What did the Labour government say to to the concerns of the working class? There would be no more than 200,000 immigrants per year from East Europe! Anybody with more than two-brain cells to rub together could see this was not going to be the case. It just demonstrates that a government should be more concerned over it population's 'quality of life' than just plain economic growth.
"It's not immigration that's the real issue. It's the fact that we in this country (along with the States) mollycoddle our kids.
Employers will always need people they can rely on, rather than people brought up to believe the world owes them a cushy living.
Unless we address this problem, Gordon Brown's rather optimistic figures as espouced to the lady he called a bigot, will not last. Nobody will want British workers."
"If they are from Poland, or from other areas within the EU, then why is it such an issue? I was taught that the EU was created to compete with the US. Common passport, free trade, and open borders amongst member states... I would mention common currency, but the UK opted out on that one.
I'm originally from Michigan, and I have lived in Texas, Georgia, and currently reside in Florida. It would be strange for me to move from one state to another, and experience animosity towards me because I was from Michigan. There are cultural differences in the US, but not to the extent that there is in Europe. Maybe England is not ready for a European Union.
What you should be worried about, is the influx of Islamic Idealist that are prevalent in your country. They are the ones that want to change your society, and laws. Not the Eastern Europeans!
-Florida"
"maraq
?Poland, unlike all other eastern bloc countries, had strong population growth in the early 1980's the days when staunch catholism and ludicrously cheap soviet oil subsides provided everyone with a job for life and apartment but virtually no entertainment or consumer goods...Poland, since 1989, cannot provide sufficient employment for this generation and you are importing that surplus...?
I suppose that you are not just an ignorant... In eighties in Poland it was impossible to buy bread without a coupon and cueing for hours during the night. There was NOTHING in the shops and only black market. There was no sophisticated health service without a bribe. There was terrible communist newspeak in the media boycotted by almost whole of the society... But there were also no apartments for people... you could buy an apartment after 20 years of waiting or just go abroad to earn money if you got allowed. There were tanks and military transporters in the streets. There was a curfew. You could be imprisoned or shot if you not respect it. Thank to what Polish people were doing then, thanks to their opposition, YOU are not dead now or at least you do not need to hide from soviet nuclear missiles. I give you a guarantee that Polis did not loved Hitler and Stalin even if some idiots would like to tell such things. Poles did not have a time to enjoy chip Russian oil paying for the soviet presence there in the same time. Are just another British ignorant racist talking about Polish catholicism, anti-Semitism and homophobia.. just impossible that it is an outcome of education in British school; my children attend it as I pay my taxes here. I know the level of education in UK is poor but not so much. I really know many intelligent British people not saying such rubbish..."
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
As you pointed out, plenty of Brit Crims abroad. Drugs in Southern Spain etc. Dealers in Ibizia.
By what right do the border agency steal ID? I know of no regulation that allows them to do this.
Read the article - they keep it so it doesn't get destroyed, as that will ultimately mean they stay.
Just to add to this story, Broadway on Monday released http://www.broadwaylondon.org/CHAIN/NewsletterandReports/main_content/fullreport.pdf" rel="nofollow">their latest figures for rough sleepers in London. Sadly Eastern and Central European people are accounting for a rapidly rising proportion of rough sleepers in the capital.
Can't let the startlingly contrary truth of real statistics get in the way of perception- and perception leads to firm conviction with daily mail and sun readers all day everyday!!
And with politicians of all stripes.
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"I find it a little disturbing that Guardian readers aren't able to reference their direct experiences living in a community with a significant migrant minority.
Anyway, my point was that while the stats may be hyperbolic and the language used by elements of the current government bordering on out-right racism or xenophobia, the reality is that the influx of Eastern European migrants has a significant, direct affect on the lives of many and some consideration should be given to that reality.
Hopefully this post will stick around a little longer..."
"As an occasional British visitor to the UK I have to tell you that it certainly has. This summer I met a vast number of Polish and Romanian workers in the service industry. They were bright, cheerful, smiling and efficient in what they did. What a pleasure.
Of course there were many Brits doing the same ... but a significant number that were obnoxious, mean, unhelpful and even derogatory.
Yep, I hope the influx makes life improve even more."
My "perception" is my rammed train and my ever traffic jammed roads, and my child not able to get into her catchment school.
What some people in this country need to be aware of, is that there are substantial and thriving Ex pat British communities all over the EU. How would we like it if other countries treated our nationals the way we seem intent on treating theirs?
I live in a EU country, my wife is not an EU citizen but is legitimately here. There are so many little concentrations of UK people, but then equally Dutch, Irish, German, Belgian and so on that our hosts are used to it. If the UK pulled out of the EU and hostility from the UK side meant 'repatriation' then suddenly quite a lot of people would be plonked back there. They are not all pensioners as is sometimes alleged and many of us have children with UK passports who will not be on census statistics there. So no precise numbers are possible for projections. Imagine the sudden flood of people without jobs, homes and all else. The few niggles about Bulgarians and Romanians would very quickly pale into insignificance as the UK gets its own back.
"I'm a UK citizen living and working in Germany, and have been here now for more than 6 years. Due to retire within the next few years.
Once I've been here for 8, I can apply for German citizenship which I'll certainly attempt, as I have no wish to return to a Britain ruled by the present coalition - nor by the Labour party in its current Tory-Lite form, either. Return to a country with its NHS being dismantled and sold off as well? No thanks.In any case I'm a home-owner here, too, living in a lovely apartment the like of which I'd never be able to afford in the UK."
Our ex pat communities have money and are a financial benefit to their adoptive nations. Immigration into the the UK is predominantly based upon unskilled Eastern European's who work here and send most of there money home. Apples and oranges I'm afraid.
very interesting, any evidence?
Agreed. Interesting too that they are called 'ex pats'. They are also&nbsp; migrants but they are going the other way.
"When were you last in hospital?
My last visit I had blood taken by a Portugese nurse, was seen by an Asian cardiologist and Polish Radiologist.
London is full of Europeans working in finance and the media, and that doesn't count those in hospitality and catering. I think you need to wake up to the fact that many of these migrants have skills that their British counterparts lack, multilingual for a start."
My point expanded. Thank you. I lived and worked variously in Belgium, Holland and Germany I have many friends still there who have difficulty believing the way this country is going.
The difference is that OUR ex-pat commnunities are either working or retired and are not benefit tourists which is part of the pull on people coming here: relatively easy access to the benefits system and no minimum contributory period...
A friend from Berlin was complaining about his rent, I sent him a copy of an advert for a similar apartment in a similar area of London. No more complaints.
"Do a little research and find out what benefit payments are in other countries before you post. JSA equivalents in Belgium, Holland, Germany and the Irish Republic are all higher than here.
Also DWP's own figures, less than 6% of benefit claimants are EU migrants and they are generally short term."
"That is what is called prejudice. Go to a hospital or a university to take these two sectors as examples and you will see the enormous contributions made by EU and non-EU migrants to the British economy (I am not even talking about a contribution to society, given that most people seemingly only care about money in this country).
One thing that really annoys me is how the Brits abroad are 'ex-pats', whereas the poor souls not born in the UK are 'foreigners' or 'migrants'."
It should also be pointed out that many of the Brits who have emigrated to Spain are retirees and due to their advanced years need regular access to the Spanish health service. So it’s not just migrants coming to the UK that have access to our public services, Brits living abroad do so too.
"did you even read the article or just start typing when you saw the word immigration...
..also I think you will find that most benefits require a minimal NI contribution beven for UK residents and of course non-EU migrants are excluded from calining benefits...but don't let the facts get in the way of your Pavlovic response ...keep ranting ;)"
"Nonsense. If the authorities don't know what's going on, we can fairly conclude it isn't good. Because if an immigrant is contributing to the welfare of society they will have a tax code. If they have a tax code, we know they are here and where they live. This is true regardless of politic and is in no way a fascist outlook (as I have been told before previously), identifying tax payers is a fundamental requisite of any Socialist state!
If tax isn't being paid, we can be sure still services will still be consumed and we can also be sure that immigrants are only likely to then declare themselves when something is needed from the state."
"Nonsense. If the authorities don't know what's going on, we can fairly conclude it isn't good.
No, that's just the implication you've made to fit your agenda.
I feel sorry for you, people from other countries aren't that cynical and self-serving and they aren't out to steal your appointment at the hospital and/or your parking space, you do know that I hope?"
"Absolute bollox. The sixth largest French city is London, over 600,000 French people live there, how do the French know this and we don't?
The second most commonly spoken language in UK is Polish, and we know this. If those figures can be found so can others. The fact remains that the vast majority of migrants actually work. Many only come for the summer - the fruit pickers - and then return home.
The authorities don't know what's going on because we have the worst government interdepartmental IT systems in Europe which suits their purpose as it enables them to misrepresent statistics to suit themselves, not just this lot, but Labour too."
The French don't know. They're guessing too.
"It's no use just swearing at people you disagree with and thinking it strengthens your argument. You don't need to cross reference any other IT systems than the tax database. That contains at the very least an address, an age and a name against an NI number. Clearly there will be a vanishingly small proportion of the indigenous population who register those things past the ages of 16 to 20. So new registrations after the age of 20 are going to give a pretty clear signal as to net tax paying migrants.
You can't have it all ways. You can't say migration is good, but that we have no idea how many are consuming services without contributing taxes to the welfare of the nation. Yet that is what whitehall serving both the present and last government are trying to say. The problem is both the present and last government have admitted their figures could be wrong by an order of magnitude but that being the case, the claims being made about the value of migrants are necessarily undermined. The evidence of the strain on services - which incidentally has not been adequately accounted for in any of the reports on the value of migration - is clear for all to see."
Ok, without swearing. The simple answer is that your idea wont work because NI details and Tax details do not include nationality, unless you are registered for non dom status.
And I repeat. The reason the numbers can't be found is because it's to the governments advantage to be able to fudge them.
"No, it's because you don't have to register with anyone: freedom of movement means just that. You *can* register with your country's embassy or consulate or whatever, but you don't have to. So all the figures are based on those figures: guesswork. Nobody knows how many British people there are in France, either.
This stuff is harder than you might think."
Those aren't figures, they are finger -in-the-air estimates, which is, apparently waht our immigration figures are too, according to recent revelations.
Why not doing this analysis as a proportion of the land size of the country?  This is a flawed analysis and is aimed to make England the most densely populated country from the current 5th place.
The vast majority of the UK is free space.
Speaking with conviction as another idiot who can't be bothered to look up the figures, I say with equal probability that none of those countries is three times the size of the UK.
"UK: 243,610 km2
Italy: 301,338 km2
source: wikipedia - cannot be bothered to look the others up, as what you are saying is clearly BS anyway..."
Agreed...and the UK and England are not interchangeable terms.
But they are BIGGER than the UK, are they not? So they can probably absorb more immigrants than we can?
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"This could have been argued in a decent language.... So it just shows the thick head. I have used 'probably' and I wasn't far off ..
Uk - 243 sq km
Spain- 505 sq km
Germany - 357 sq km
Italy - 301 sq km
So these countries are much bigger than UK if not three times and so can accommodate more people per sq km than UK."
"""I wasn't far off""
Said the guy who doesn't see that big a difference between twice as large and three times as large! Not to speak of between 50% more and 300% more.
:D"
"But Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands are all smaller - and also have larger immigrant communities.
Area is not a particularly important factor as nearly all of us live in towns and cities anyway - especially migrants - and the population density in towns and cities are pretty similar from country to country."
"Why not doing this analysis as a proportion of the land size of the country? Germany, Spain and Italy are probably three times bigger country than the UK if not more.
Here we go again. I know this must be true because I want to stop immigrants.
Population density per sq kilometer
UK 260
Germany 225
Italy 198

Area Germany 357,000km2
Uk 243,000
Italy 301,000
So in an article about facts, why not say that 300 is three times as big as 243?"
"Nope- not more per km2, just more people overall. But this does remind me of a post I did several months ago:-
Is the UK overpopulated?
UK- 673 people/square mile. Compared with other Western countries open to lots of immigration:-
Canada 10
Australia 8
USA 89
Compared to some other random European countries often considered destinations for migrants:-
France 303
Germany 593
Denmark 337
Only Holland and Belgium have higher in Europe- although England itself has a population density higher than both at over 1000.
Then there is the environmental point of view:
UK carbon footprint = 5.4 hectares/person = 324million hectares for the UK.
Unfortunately the UK is only 24 million hectares, so we expect an area 12 times our size (the size of India, or 2 Irans, or 3 Ethiopias) to counteract our carbon for us- completely irresponsible and making us a massive contributer to climate change.
Could we reduce our carbon footprints? Well, Findhorn, the most sustainable community in the UK, still has a carbon footprint of 2.71 hectares/person- despite producing all their own electricity (and in fact exporting it), consuming at 44% of our rate, and producing 70% of their own fresh food. So, in a word, no.
Basically, we cannot sustain such a big population. Net immigration needs to end as we already play a major part in costing the Earth."
I heard huge swathes of teh North East or was it the North West are unihabited and desolate,
"Ha ha you have won an award for the most pathetic use of stats today!!!!
Lets think
Austrailia for all of it's charm is mainly a desert
Canada is mainy Tundra covered in Snow for long periods
USA again has large deserts, vast mountain ranges and huge prairies given over to agriculture
You missed off Greenland!! I bet we are more crowded than a country that is really a a glacier (or used to be!)
Antarctica, hardly anyone lives there, that prooves your point"
"The comparison was merely to put our density into perspective, not to provide a direct comparison- that is why I then moved on to look at European countries. But I hope you feel like you got some pent up anger off your chest anyway- perhaps learn to spell simple words like ""Australia"" and ""proves"" before throwing stones.
Instead of that part of the analysis, what about the stat that our carbon footprint is 12 times bigger than our landmass and 6 times bigger than we could realistically reduce it down to? You ignored that part."
Yes, intentionally missing Spain, which is 505k sq km to fit the specific argument.
"The specific argument being that Spain (area 505,000 km2) is three times as big as the UK (243,000 km2).
But6 not being a liar and havinbg done sums at porimary school I calculate that Spain is bigger, but oinly twice as big as the UK..
But having listed as three times as big as the UK, not only Spain but Germany and Italy you get self rightous because one of your three is twice as big. I assume you are a Ukip member from your concern with accuracy.
An intelligent being might also consider that a larger part of Spains land mass is uninhabitable. And of course Spain does have as many immigrants a year as the UK."
*Gets popcorn to await outrage from righties*
wtf?
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"It is not at all clear how HMG knows that a person has emigrated.
The outflow figures are guesstimates at best."
"Despite the inefficiencies of the UK Government, they are already aware of statistics such as this. Further, they are also undoubedly aware of research into projection on migration. Such as research by the OECD http://www.oecd.org/els/mig/imo2013.htm which suggests that in order for Europe (and the UK) to maintain current standards of living up to 2050 it MUST increase immigration substantially. This is because of an ageing population and shrinking birth rate and diversification of economies. And this research states that even if every single person currently unemployed in the Uk was found a job, we would still need this increased migration. Ranstad's ongoing labour market analyses describe exactly the same thing. Neither ranstad nor OECD are migrants rights organisations (for those who dont know!) but are hard nosed money focused organisations fully embedded in neo liberalism.
Now the statistical facts and the results of well conducted research might not form the basis for an excitingly charged discussion about ""indigenous"" British people, and ""drains on services"" or even ""Muslamicicism"" among the ignorant but they actually form the real basis of any meaningful discussion on migration. And the challenge of migration is not going to be how 'we' (what me and Dave are from the same culture so have a lot in common ?) deal with the ""hordes"" of horrible foriegners coming here with their lovely spices and taking over our fast food takeaways, but how we - any of us - are going to eat if our economy collapses due to the shite, short term sloganeer based, short sighted parochial, stupid, xenophobic, ill-informed, unsustainable, unco-ordinated career led politics of contemporary UK (or Europe come to that!) and migrants dont come because its too crap here.
The duty of politicians is Government (policy) but also governance (how to govern well so that the nation functions peacefully). On policy, the last few Governments have gotten it all wrong because their policy is not based on evidence but on their own desire for control which they estimate is best supported by appealing to simple minded prejudice and convincing ""us"" that they are the ones best placed to protect us from that thing to be feard the most - horrible old 'change' (that's always caused by someone else). This approach - instilling fear, encouraging prejudice and scapegoating, the sun wilol never set - is the opposite of good governance because it runs away from reality and the real challenges of living in this great big, ever changing, beautiful world.
About the only true thing about UK politicians is that they are not responsible for many of the changes in the world. This isnt because they tried their best to shape the world positively but because they're too busy lining their own pockets as far as they can see (about to the next election, or at best the next job after they've cashed in on politics). If our politicians were even half as good as the migrants I work with at assessing what's really important then meeting consequent challenges with optimism, industry, integrity and no fear, then this country would be a much better place, and much more secure (in every sense)."
"I have no problem with these people, but you might want to spare a thought for the unemployed factory workers who's job they'll be filling for minimum wage.
They largely send their money home to their families providing a nice little boost to Poland, Lithuania, but damages the already fragile UK economy.
With 10% unemployment we only need a fraction of the unskilled migrants that come to these shores every year. However, we have a large skills gap in this country and those skilled jobs should be advertised to educated/skilled foreign nationals who want to come and contribute to UK society.
UK nationals working and living abroad are different to the unskilled migrants who live and work here. I have two degrees and a healthy bank balance - when I've worked abroad, I've rented a nice apartment and shopped at local stores which boosts the local economy. I didn't share a cramped bedroom with 20 other Brits and send my monthly cheque home to pay for a mortgage which would have acted as a drain on the community I was working in.
Essentially, welcome foreign workers, but ensure they have the skills the economy needs at that time. With 10% unemployment and an already struggling domestic workforce, unskilled migration at current numbers is simply unfeasible."
I agree with what you say about the unskilled workers however, I would point out that many of the British unskilled workers who now complain that they cannot find employment, were in many cases unwilling to take jobs when everything was booming pre 2008. Many now are only seriously looking for employment because the option to park themselves on long term benefits is no longer open to them.... But I do agree that we shouldn't be letting in unskilled workers when we have plenty of our own.
"Absolute balls.
As a former Eastern European UK migrant I used to work in the IT industry, my fellow compatriots were either also employed as IT professionals (software engineers etc. a several of them) or were in similarly skilled professions. I had a friend, a compatriot as well, who was working for J. P. Morgan (let's leave aside the morality of that), another one was a solicitor, another one an engineer at the Land Rover plant in Halewood, Liverpool, another one doing a PhD at Birmingham Uni... shall I go on?
I lived with other migrants while I was based in London from other parts of the EU and again I had a friend working as a software engineer, another one doing a PhD in economics, a third one doing a post-doc at UCL.
The above is pure conjecture."
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Whereas what you're providing is just examples, not stats.
"The skills the UK needs are ""all"". There is not simply a skill shortage in the UK (although there is that) there is a labour force shortage. THis may sound anti-intuitive when there is such massive unemployment but the fact is that our economy is not big, wide or diverse enough to sustain standards of living in the long term. And even if we sent all the immigrants 'home' ( I know you are not advocating theis by the way) and employed all the unemployed thereby shrinking the population (by about 280,000 depending on how you define immigrant) from a total population of 60,000,000 to something smaller ( still over 59,000,000) this basic fact would exist.
Note that this is long term. But this is the reason that economists are so alarmed by austerity. Because in creating austerity and making large numbers of people redundant, Govt is removing cash from the economy. And the argument that the private sector will make up for this removal has no evidence base to support it: all the evidence suggests that you need a healthy mixed economy (public and private employment) of sufficient size to support all the other functions/processes of a state, however they are funded. Take health care - it does not matter where the money comes from - private insurance schemes or national funded pot - if it is not paid for by wages then there is no health care. Its a complicated dynamic mix of population size, requirements of population not in work, proportion of population in work, wage rates and overall size of economy. Our economy does not have enough of the population in work or enough people of working age to fulfil the requirements that this part of the 'equation' demands. Which brings us back to migrants and skilled/unskilled and the real discussion we should be having which is the Government's handling of the economy (which is what this actually boils down to) and whether it is based on real long term analysis or knee jerk short term populism. By not discussing the real links between issues, it is clearly short term popularity they are pursuing."
"The option to park yourself on long term benefits hasn't existed since 1945, when most workhouses were closed in favor of a welfare state.
The myth of the 'benefit culture' is patently absurd to anyone who has claimed benefits (at least over the last 15 years of my experience) You can sign on for at most 6 months if you're able to work, maybe as much as two years if you're a mum. Then it's training or some kind of makework. More recently of course there has been the 'find a job or starve' premis.
Unless you're a Lord. They get benefits for life."
"Over-education among A8 migrants in the UK
Good enough for you?"
"Ever since embarkation controls were abolished some 25? years ago all immigration statistics became pure guess work. The IPS only targets a tiny tiny percentage of inward and outward passengers. Interviewees are often economical with the truth. Visitors whose real intention is to stay permanently will, obviously respond that they are visitors. Currently net immigration figures are very crudely calculated. They include the couple of hundred thousand UK citizens who are emigrating to southern Europe, Australia, New Zealand, USA Canada etc.
Perhaps we are too hooked these NET immigration figures. Surely the real worry to the majority of the UK population is the actual number foreigners coming to settle here. Those with skills who are not taking jobs that could be filled by unemployed UK residents are obviously welcome.
Illegal immigrants are not mentioned in the article – they number way over 1 million if one includes their dependants. They do not contribute to our society – they are a drain as we spend over £1,300,000,000 (yes £1.3 billion) on legal aid, housing, minimal benefits, medical care, and education for their children.
I am surprised the statistics from the 2011 Census have not been mentioned. OK, the illegal immigrants are not recorded but surely all over stayers were not enumerated. Tax codes? Most people have a tax code even if not working. Talking of which I note that the 2011 Census records 55% of all Muslim males of working age who are not students are registered as not having any work.
I have to smile at the graph of long term migration from 1964 onwards - I was indirectly involved with compiling the figures from 1964 until the late 80’s. Everyone in the IS and Home Office knew then that they had been massively massaged. To give a definite number of immigrants arriving annually is impossible. A rough guess will have to suffice."
"You really don't want to be quoting Home Office predictions as part of fact checking. Remember how they predicted that only  Poles would arrive in Britain?
Unless the Home Office has a better crystal ball this year, its estimates are no better than your average taxi driver's."
half a dozen
There once was a time when the UK was glad that more than half a dozen Poles arrived. Otherwise, the Battle of Britain may have been lost.
I have one really good Argintinian friend (whose an italian national), and as a result know about several Spanish people living and working in my city; a couple who are maried to uk nationals. They all work really hard, non have ever claimed benefits here and two have recently gone back to Spain to work. I know another five UK nationals, who live and work in Germany and France. One regularly travels back to the UK to work. It's how we now live in Europe and it's great that we have this oportunity. Perhaps the Conservatives should head the lessons learnt by Leicester City Council, which once put an add in a Ugandan newspaper to discourage Asians from settling in Leicester. It didn't work and remains an embarrassment despite the genuine apology the council has since made.
"It is not an East European influx that is the problem it is all those Scandinavians and north Europeans.....ruddy Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes coming over here and taking our jobs, land and oxen.
And the ruddy Royal family too.....they are all German....Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Battenburgers the lot of them. Taking our royal jobs, land and oxen too.
Send 'em all back I say."
Send all humans back to Africa, give the UK back to the hedgehogs!
This article is itself clearly biased in favour of immigration and is not factually clear because even if 350,703 people leave the UK whilst 566,044 arrive and there is a net increase of 215,341 which is hardly a small figure and we need to remember that of the 566,044 new residents if they don't speak English then they will put a strain on schools and the NHS etc. Whilst we are often told that the British go abroad to work and retire, generally, they don't emigrate in order to claim benefits and one of the major pulls to this country is the relative ease with which benefit entitlement arises for new arrivals who will have paid nothing into the system and in some cases (probably a minority) are unlikely to ever pay anything in... Most British people are fair minded but I think they do get annoyed when they see people arrive here and park themselves on benefits and expect/receive social housing pretty quickly - we all know it happens, it isn't fair and it breeds resentment amongst those who wait patiently in the queue and feel overlooked when they are not helped. Articles like this take no account of this and seem to imply that we must keep endlessly welcoming immigrants when we are unable to adequately many of the people who are already here.
'We all know it happens'. No, I am afraid I don't. How do you know that yourself? Facts, please, no prejudices.
No it is not "clearly biased in favour of immigration". The article sets its stall out from the beginning to take a look at real and verifiable figures. The fact that you don't like the figures and you would rather stick to your scare stories that "we all know happen" is sad for you, but ultimately and happily this article proves you wrong.
"This article proves nothing, except we are all in the dark, a true mushroom society kept in the dark and fed on bullshit.
Everybody can make out reasons for or against immigration, MO won us a gold medal in long distances or TB is back because of immigrants from Asia. The worst reason is immigration is good because we are a multi cultural society or immigrants are responsible for knife crime.
If we had genuine facts (indisputable) then we could all make our minds up, but the biggest thing to remember is not isolated cases or Daily Mail misinformation but HOW DOES IMMIGRATION IMPACT ON JOBS,HOUSING, SCHOOLS, HEALTH."
"Many migrants speak better English than the locals. Strain on the NHS? without migrant doctors, we wouldn't have one, so no, not really.
Most migrants are not entitled to benefits. Those that are have paid in back home - and hence have paid for the ex-pats there. Plain swop, with slight advantage to the ex-pats, since most places have a more generous regime than here.
Migrants are much less likely to receive 'social housing' unless you count 'family member bought house and is renting for peppercorn'. Most housing associations require them to become citizens first - which takes years of working."
What if all the WASP american descendants of Brits return here ?
Not terribly on topic, but the woman in the photograph covered a fairly useless part of her visa on her passport and neglected to cover the important stuff like name and passport number. Information like that is quite risky to put out into public view as it can do a lot of damage to the bearer if placed in the wrong hands if that makes sense.
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"Behind this current debate about net migration is a phenomenon of greater historical relevance to Britain's economic decline. That being the massive loss to the British economy of the millions of skilled workers who left the country from the 50s through to the early seventies: the legions that left for Australia under the assisted passage scheme being a pertinent example.
The overall negative impact of this exodus on Britain's long term growth performance has, it seems, been rarely discussed by economic historians or industrial economists."
Yet another Polish delicatessen has opened near me this week. And the clothes sore that had been around for donkey's years until it closed down some months ago is apparently going to become some sort of fancy "patisserie". These Europeans are everywhere! In fact I may even be one myself.
store
"We should be more concerned about non EU immigration as the country should at least have control of that The issue around the lower rate of claim of benefits is in my view misleading- if active adults are emigrating to a new country the primary reason should be to work, support themselves and to contribute to the economy. So we should be expecting a significantly lower rate of benefit claim in any event.
If people are coming in to do unskilled jobs in the economy the taxes they pay do not actually cover the real costs of health and schooling if they have children.
In a study by Dustmann et al from UCL published in 2012 The Review of Economic Studies showed that immigration had pushed down wages for the bottom 20% confirming the fears of low skilled British workers that it had a significant adverse impact on them in particular. There is plenty of local labour for these jobs. We need training and work for this lost generation of young people from the UK now leaving school and university.
Ordinary people can see the strain on the health service and education for themselves, they don't need politicians to tell them what is happening in front of their eyes. They are having to open primary schools in office blocks in the nearby town and the local General Hospital is under massive pressure from the increased demand from healthcare."
Half a million social homes given to new immigrants since 2001, no stats on hw much hosing benefit, probably not so many are EU immigrants , but how many British migrants get subsidsed accomadation?
"They are also very keen on buying them, aware of the profit to be made typically £50,000 on a small flat.
Take that money back home and they're almost a millionaire.
So it helps to reduce our stock of council housing for our people."
"""Our people""?!
Please, I beg as a white British citizen, please, do not count me among ""your people""."
different classes experience immigration differently. when I go for a job I compete against many people some are from eastern europe, sometimes I get the job sometimes I dont. I average 3 days work a week. I need 5 to live. You cannot ignore the law of supply and demand unless you are middle class. It's not race- it's capitalism- but no one can tell me my chances of getting a job will be easier if there are more people competing for that job.
"I think your first sentence explains the lack of understanding many of the Guardian readership have regarding this issue. While the Guardian could be generalised as a newspaper read by the middle classes, I live in what is traditionally a working class area of inner city Leeds. I haven't experienced increased competition for work places in my field, but the difficulties I experience living here are around anti-social behaviour by elements of the migrant population. These challenges have ultimately led to me feeling compelled to move from a home I have been settled in for several years.
It is extremely unfortunate that those whose lives are significantly and negatively impacted upon by elements of the migrant population are unable to share their experiences without being branded racist or xenophobic, although I can understand that anyone not having first hand experience of these difficulties might not be able to sympathise. There are of course huge benefits to be enjoyed by the movement of people to and from our country but there are also significant challenges and it's a shame that those who legitimately raise these issues are dismissed as BNP or UKIP nutters."
It is all the English emigrating to Wales and Cornwall that create problems; not learning the language and/or culture
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"Correction: this should be ""meaning that net immigration has risen since 1997"".
Net migration would be total immigration plus total emigration (the two forms of migration), if it meant anything. (Although ""net"" wouldn't really mean anything at all here.)
Net immigration is total immigration minus total emigration. That is what is obviously meant here."
"Lies ,damn lies and statistics. The big problem with the article is the assumption that immigrants are universally spread round the country. It may be a fact that its 7or8% total in the UK but in certain areas its 50 or 60%.
If there were a bigger % of skilled, semi skilled and not the more important number of unskilled then the labour market could cope and more chance of getting that job they applied for.
Numbers are not the real problem whether correct or made up, its the impact on local areas thats important. The class sizes and how many different languages spoken, housing availability, over burdoning of the maternity wards plus 200 applying for the same job.
Mona can question the numbers but I defy her to question the impact it has on areas like Tower Hamlets and Ladywood.
May be she can hide a few facts herself but she and others should explain why the most deprived areas have the highest % of immigrants, the areas with over 20% unemployment rates are in these areas."
Millions of people moving around Europe leaving families at home , casual low paid work, crowded accommodation , hostels, pushing down wages, rogue landlords and employers, social disruption. Supported by the Guardian and probably Norman Tebbitt.
Are there any stats available for the numbers of murderers and criminals coming here from Poland and Lithuania?
I don't know but the SUN and other the Tabloids seem to know a lot about British Criminals in Spain. They used to print loads of stories about them.
Can't help noticing that you appear to have disclosed a child's full personal details - name, date of birth, nationality and passport number on that photo at the top. Not great.
The man from Demos on C4 News last night was rude and would not the guy pushing the statistical reality like this get a word in. He looked and behaved like a man who was pushing a polemic and not one comfortable he had the numbers right.
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Bloody hand-wringing Guardianistas! Why do you want to waste time looking at real numbers and analysing them openly and fairly? Why can't I just be left alone to demonise anyone who has a slightly different accent to me?
""" Countries like Romania and Bulgaria are often quoted as the countries that will open the floodgates - despite a Home Office commissioned study that predicted 5,000-13,000 nationals would arrive from EU's new member states per year after EU enlargement.""
, so up to 500,000 could be realistic."
"If you had wished to be completely honest, you would have added that that underestimate was based on a assumption of only dropping movement restrictions when the rest of the EU did - but we dropped them several years before everyone else instead.
In the case of Romania and Bulgaria, we are in fact maintaining movement restrictions for as long as the rest of the EU - so the forecast can be considered credible."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. U never fail me.
"Everyone is so hung-up on the effects immigration has had on the economy that you all fail to recognise some people come here for political reasons, and by that I don't mean asylum seeking.
I mean people who are not necessarily pressed by joblessness elsewhere and who, in fact, actively choose to relocate to the UK because they prefer this country to their home country, or any other country, financial gain excluded.
These people would therefore be very likely to master the language and adapt to the culture and traditions here. Doesn't this constitute much of the debate around immigration that you are ranting and raving about - integration?
Or, does it come down to the British simply not wanting ANY sort of foreign-born nationals to enter the country - bring immigration to a halt so to speak - regardless of whether immigrants would be willing to assimilate or not, regardless of how keen they are to become part of this country or not?
I haven't heard anyone even consider this possibility, and I suspect you may be missing a very good point."
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Thank god, you've written this. Totally agree. Gordon Brown was right about her.
"oh dear
someone got out the wrong side of bed this morning.
i can't read rants, they just wash over me."
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i never even found out till 10 at night what he called her bigoted for.
"oh for goodness sake, grow up! and put that faux wounded whine back to bed.
worse things have been said about immigrants than what came from Mrs Duffy....her question was actually fairly reasonable and hardly something to be defied as you wish.
By the way, my view is the more eastern europeans here, the merrier - they work hard and are generally well behaved and contribute rather than leech like so many of the indigenous folk."
"This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot?
She should be the one apologising. What this whole affair does is tell us a lot about the right wing press and the conservative party. Normal people aren't bigoted like Gillian Duffy. She doesn't speak for Britain and she doesn't speak for the British working class.
People from Eastern Europe have worked hard and given a lot to this country and most of us are very happy that they're here. And the opportunities we have for going to other European countries are wonderful. People like Gillian Duffy want to take that all away. I'm most angry with her because she wants to make sure my children have doors closed to them, chances removed, because of her own stupid bigoted prejudices. And the conservatives agree with her."
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"The difference is between the words and the person speaking them.
She has been fed the line by the media that Eastern Europeans are ""flocking"" here. It is unfortunate that she believes the media - but a lot of people still do.
The words are not hers, and yes, the words are bigotted. She however is not a bigot.
I'm with you on the franchise question too. EU Citizens should be able to vote in whichever EU country they are currently residing for income tax purposes. It's the old problem again - taxation without representation.
On the apology front I doubt you'll get many/any - but you can have mine for free - sorry our Media is so bigotted that otherwise decent people have their minds filled with lies. Sorry we tax you and don't give you a vote."
An anmesty for all Eastern Europeans - I say ! Vote LibDem !
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The BNP is becoming mainstream and it's becoming socially acceptable to say vile things about "foreigners". Brace yourself for more.
I think you are overreacting. I am not defending the womans views which I do think are limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches. But still I think you need to relax.
"Please explain more. Who is ""we""? What opportunities do normal British people with only generic skills have for working in other European countries? Why do you assume that your children will be ""special""?
The original article reads like something out of Viz."
"I can't believe this blog has been pasted into the Guardian.
If Gordon Brown's comments after his chat to her hadn't have been broadcast, then what she said wouldn't be an issue like this. Anyone who says it would is either deluded or just a liar. This is getting beyond a joke now.
Leave the woman alone. Get a grip."
"I was also a bit surprised that there was no criticism of her 'flocking' description whatsoever. Gordon Brown could have apologised for the incident but then explained that that kind of description is derogatory and inflammatory, which is presumably why he reacted the way he did.
I don't know - maybe she's not a bigot, but she's unthinkingly using language associated with bigotry, certainly."
"As I short person, I don't appreciate being called a short person - but it doesn't stop me being one.
The same applies to bigots I guess."
We know - but lots of British people - and plenty of politicians - have been playing this game for decades: just ask anyone from the Black and Asian communities. Bashing migrants (and their British descendants) is an easy way to get cheap votes.
"My East European wife says
a) She likes the UK and most of the people.
b) You need to get a grip."
"Hey Milena
Having had a ten-year relationship with a second generation Polish immigrant and her family, I can stand up and say that they are the most honest, hard-working, down to earth, morally resolute and charming people any British chap could hope to be involved with.
In fairness, Gordon Brown stood up for you, calling this odious woman a bigot. Something he's being absolutely caned for. A nugget of hope here is that for every person who won't support Brown for his still disrespectful opinion of this woman, many more are genuinely refreshed by his immediate response of calling this spade an odious spade. And for that, I applaud him."
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Aren't they? I think that many people are fearful of what they have and look for someone else to blame for their problems - I think Duffy is all too normal and to suggest otherwise is to avoid dealing with the problem and will allow parties like the BNP to dictate the agenda on economic migration.
"Good if understandably angry article. All those of you with nice safe UK passports have no idea how alienating Brown's (aka the moral compass) statements on 'british jobs' are - if he doesn't want my partner in the UK, maybe he'll have the decency not to take her taxes?
If Brown had any guts over challenging racism he would have challenged St Duffy to her face ... of course as is a key part to his cowardice, he prefers to slink off and moan to himself.
When he used the slogan 'British jobs for British workers' he knew its links to the NF and he still did it. His government has had no qualms at running YarlsWood and detaining children without charge. His government is as pathetic at challenging and standing up to racism today as he and his ilk have always been."
"At no point did Mrs Duffy say anything bigoted, if you don't believe me perhaps you'll believe Brown, Balls, Cooper, Johnson, Prescott, Mandelsohn, Bradshaw, Miliband Snr and Jnr. All have stated that nothing Mrs Duffy said could be construed as bigoted. What do you persist with the lie?
Anyone stating here that she did is a liar, plain and simple."
"Milena.
You probably do pay higher rate tax and probably do put in more than you take out. If so then, as far as I am concerned, you are welcome to make the UK your home.
But there are plenty of other Eastern Europeans who are not, the criminal elements especially.
You need to grow a thicker skin. Gillian Duffy was not bigoted, she simply asked where all of the Eastern Europeans were flocking from. If asking a simple question in today's society causes even the Prime Minister to regard one as bigoted then I guess there is no hope for millions of us."
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Why would they need an amnesty? What on earth are you talking about?
"Exactly true. I tend to challenge people when they quote mistruths about immigration round me (such as my friend who claims the only reason that he's unemployed is because of the polish, rather then the fact he's lazy. Or the same friend that reckons the Polish people are stealing fish out of the local fishery) and the amount of contempt you get back makes me wonder how eastern europeans feels about these kind of rumours.
However, expect the general reaction to this article to be something along the lines of 'oh grow up and stop been so soft' line, probably from thousands of people that phoned in to complain when Russell Brand said a rude word on Saturday night radio."
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"I'm sorry that you felt so badly about someone questioning the state of immigration in this country. But it was not directed at you, despite the words used. It was an example of the recent immigration that the UK has had, which is indeed largely Eastern European. What she wanted to know is; does it damage services? Does it stop vulnerable people getting benefits? Again no-one actually answered her questions, badly worded as they were. Instead they sneered and sniped at her uneducated background.
She may be ignorant, but she's not a bigot and I will not call her one to make you feel better. I'm sorry for that too."
"Milena
While I appreciate you may have found events disturbing yesterday, Mrs Duffy's comments were of a generic nature. I hate to say it but you're going to find some of the responses that will be posted here today very personal and upsetting.
Like them or not (and I don't), the views of Gillian Duffy are probably representative of a substantial percentage of the population in this country. Due to the fear of politicians of all of the major parties to engage in full and frank discussion about the impact of this, many of these views have been allowed to fester. I fear you may need a thicker skin."
"I can understand your position and I have a lot of sympathy as I have some idea how alienating the experience of being an immigrant in this country is.
I think the problem with Gordon Brown's remarks was his contempt for the voter. I think what people were reacting to was the contrast between the ""nice"" public image and the bitchy stuff behind the woman's back. I happen not to agree with Gillian Duffy but she has a right to raise the immigration question with Brown without being insulted.
I can't speak for anyone else and I think you're right, there are a lot of closet (and not so closet) bigots out there. But I don't think that was what drove the reaction to Brown. It was the mixture of incompetence and contempt for the people he's supposed to be representing."
Who`s a bigot ? Gordon lost months ago .
"You have certainly over reacted BUT you certainly have a point and a valid one but so does this Lady
This countrys economy would certainly collapse without immigration and besides if there was no immigration where would we find all the beautiful women................
But you got to blame the media on this cause all they do is bang on about the negative side of immigration and boy do they bang on an on about it so this Old lady she buys the daily express and gets it bang day after day on the front page she has been influenced by the media which isn't to excuse ignorance but explains it........"
"When I heard the recording of Gillian Duffy talking to Gordon Brown it sounded to me like she said 'fucking Eastern Europeans', which is why I assumed that Brown called her a bigot (in that he misheard her)...
In any case, legal immigrants do this country a world of good and do jobs that a lot of feckless, lazy Brits wouldn't touch with a barge pole as they think that 'menial' jobs are below them. If we took all of the immigrants out of the NHS for example, it would collapse in a matter of minutes.
But no, much better to blame all of the immigrants for all of the problems we face. I can understand why the author of this piece is so pissed off."
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"I can't help thinking this would work better on the Daily Mail website, to spell it out to their cosseted readers. I would imagine most Guardian readers would say ""I agree"" with this article.
And I'm a Ukrainian living in London, by the way :)"
"Good for you. We'll have as many of these as you can spare and we'll remove the ones that don't.
Fair enough?"
"This article is absolutely spot on. I live with someone who lacks the wonderful UK passport so can be taxed and insulted at will.
More fundamentally what yesterday showed was the utter cowardice of mr moral compass, Brown. If he was offended, why not stand up and say to St Duffy that she was wrong as opposed to slinking off back to his lair.
Brown knows his 'British jobs for British workers' tripe was a slogan of the NF, yet he chose to use it. The man on this, as so much else, is a pathetic coward.
Now wait till this thread is overrun by the usual bunch in a frenzy of rage that someone else might have somthing that really should be given to them."
What she said was "unacceptable"? Who are you to tell others what they can and cannot say? Many people are quite rightly concerned about the levels of immigration in this country. People who can't find work because immigrants are doing it, those who have to wait longer for hospital treatment, those who have to wait longer for social housing and those who find it harder to get their kids into the local school. These people aren't bigots, they have genuine concerns. These issues may not have affected you but they have many others, climb down from your high horse and try and see things from other peoples point of view.
"Why do left wingers hate their core vote so much?
It beggars belief that any low skilled or semi skilled person could ever vote Labour. Wise up, they loathe you."
"""The slow, sad realisation that the political culture in the UK is such that no politician has any choice but to grovel to the bigots""
Well done. Yet another person affirming the BNPs argument that one gets called a 'bigot' or a 'racist' as soon as one questions the 'progressive' party line on immigration.
I don't even have any strong views on the issue, but I get annoyed that so many people use these insults as a cheap means of shutting down the argument, while inadvertently valididating the BNP.
GB et al should do themselves a favour - address people's genuine concerns and stop using childish insults."
"I am in pretty much the same situation in the USA I pay enormous sums in taxes. I have purchased property and am moving my family here. But in two years when my visa runs out in the present climate I am unlikely to be able to remain because Americans favour Americans just as Australians favour Australians and so on and so on
It isn't rational but all I can do is shrug, I'm not American and I can't force them to let me stay and I understand that in uncertain times people react against foreigners and I'm indistinguishable from them.
The UK is a much smaller place than is the USA and although I haven't lived there now for more than a decade I can understand completely how many of those who have lost out in the brave new world that is multicultural NuLabour Britain might be less then happy about large-scale immigration.
If I get to stay in the US it will be because I have 'exceptional ability' , in Australia and elsewhere a points system is used, I'm pretty sure that's the way the UK will have to go not necessarily because it produces better outcomes but because it is seen to be fairer to those already in the UK."
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I'm an immigrant too and that's how I felt.
"You can't take this stuff personally. What the silly old woman said is pretty much what you'd expect a silly old woman to say. There's not point getting wound up about it.
It's a bit dodgy that the press has glossed over whether or not what she said was acceptable, but that's because there is a far bigger story here - the assassination of Brown.
For what it's worth, as an Eastern European myself, there's a lot of rubbish about immigration which doesn't stand up to proper scrutiny (and no-one seems to want to address the issue of the black labour market which is pretty much propping up the building industry, the hospitality industry and a lot of menial labour around food / supermarkets) but really, I know in Russia there are just as many racist people and you simply chalk it up to a lack of experience most of the time."
"_AT_ thfc123:

What a bigoted remark -- how dare you?! We can do much worse than this. ;-)"
"Flocking" is a legitmate scientific description which is applied to the study of non-directed group behaviour. Look it up.
"Mielena, I'm the son of an immigrant father and a British mother, my father's father came to this country from America, as did many people from Poland, to contribute to the safety and security of this country. I more than most understand how you feel.
That said, I found nothing offensive in what Duffy said. It is true that Eastern European immigration was much higher than predicted, it is true that the government doesn't know how many people from abroad enter the country or how they do so.
What did disgust me was the comments about immigration from other posters and commentators after the fact, I can understand your pain but if you want to be angry at someone, be angry with the media for spinning this the way they have, be angry with the people at Britain who've made these vile comments about immigrants. Don't be angry at someone for being honest about the fact that we don't have a decent immigration policy, not too harsh, not too soft, simply not fair or organised.
But don't feel disheartened and think this country hates you, I don't, and many others feel the same, we're just not the ones shouting and calling up the radio and tv stations to spew our hatred."
many of us don't have to ask - many of us feel this way about the only politics in which we should have a voice.
"Oh, and people who call Brown 'bitchy' or 'two faced' or any of that nonsense have clearly never said something nasty about anyone in private or out of their earshot, and employ 100% honesty at all times, even if it's hurtful.
Hmmm....
Even politicians should be able to have opinions that aren't nicey nicey all of the time. Do we really expect them to be perfect and never even think or say bad things when they think that they are in private?"
Gordo should have shown some backbone and stood by his comments. Mrs. Duffy was behaving like a bigot.
"Well done Milena, good comment. Shame most British people don't seem to think so because they're terrified of their European neighbours wanting to get one over on them. Please.
As a dual British and German citizen whose partner and friends are from eastern Europe I wholeheartedly agree with you and apologise for this country's backwards attitude towards immigrants. I'm leaving this country soon because I'm fed up and need a change of scenery. Better to visit from time to time than to live my life surrounded by bigots."
Anyway, considering that "words failed her", I think Milena managed very well.
"I hate to say it, but that's life!
I've been on the receiving end a few times in my life - get over it.
You'll *never* stop people being bigots, but they are generally outnumbered.
Heaving great big sobs?
Oh please, grow a pair already - I find that hard to believe.
I was relentlessly teased at school for being a foreigner and when returning here to Britain was teased again for having been overseas ""go back to Africa, you wog"" - yeah, whatever, eventually it made me stronger.
Duffy is wrong, but she also has a right to express her opinion - as far as she's concerned, she's correct.
Millions of people in this country are stupid enough to think Muslim = terrorist - what you gonna do? You'll never change their minds.
Move on, please, just move on and drop this..."
"i think the fact you deemed it necessary to write this bit says it all really:
desperate attempt to reclaim power, to find some leverage: I wonder if I can stop paying taxes, if I can get some sort of campaign going for all immigrants to stop paying taxes ? I bet they'd notice us then. Oh, I wonder if I can challenge Duffy to take the citizenship test
yah boo sucks to you as well.
ask yourself this though if this level of immigration had happened in say poland would it be accepted as quietly and with as little complaint from the natives?"
If this offends you then I would like to know your views on the treatment that most East European states, media and population give to the gypsies and black immigrants within their own borders.
"As someone who lives in Rochdale and has done for the past 22yrs I can see where Mrs Duffy is coming from, I think the problem is she didn't articulate her feelings very clearly. Rochdale is a very proud town with a lot of social issues at the moment, and people are feeling very let down in a lot of ways.
Now as someone who's father in law is from Hungary, who came to this country in the 50's as a refugee when it was classed as an Eastern European country, I can see the other side of the argument. I agree with the article in that we should take our time to understand why people are coming over here and what there story is, we should never judge!"
Yes, Ms Duffy's views are fairly normal and yes, they are fairly uninformed. Milena, you need to take a deep breath I think.
Nasty, brutish and , thankfully, short.
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"So what your saying is that every country in the EU other than the UK and Ireland is populated by bigots because every single one of them limited migration from Eastern Europe when the EU was expanded in 2004?
As one immigrant to another, I need to tell you that you really need to get over yourself."
What you did to her was help to pay her pension.... I agree with you, I was a student in the Netherlands, an employee in Brussels and then came back home. I was an economic migrant and don't recollect being spoken to like that when I lived abroad. If the indigenous population (see Evan Davis' recent programme) were not feckless and idle and the education system in the UK had not been so systematically debased, we probably wouldn't need the immigrant labour that we import. However, I am happy to champion your right to use the EU freedom of labour rules, and add to the GDP growth we had in recent years.
"I too am an immigrant; just sayin. Standing up to be counted. I manage to disappear into the crowd because I'm white and a native English speaker who no longer has much of an accent, and I do now have a British passport. I've contributed far more to Britain financially than I will ever get back; that's as it should be. Britain is now my home.
I tell you what though, on the occasions I've commented on immigration threads I've been surprised by the ""get-back-to-where-you-came-from"" attitudes towards me of those Ciffers who assume, because of my Guardian username, that I'm brown and probably Muslim."
"You can have an apology from me Milena, for what it's worth, because like you and probably the lady in question, we are all from stock that immigrated to this country.
The women's name is Duffy, so either her or her husband, probably immigrated from Ireland, like myself, but while so many white immigrants, forget the experience after a generation, I do not.
Britain is the country it is, not only because of the people that draw their heritage from (well how far do you want to go back?), but the people that came here to earn a crust and improve the economy her and add something to the shared culture.
If you look at popular culture in this country, where would most Guardian readers be without the contribution of John Lydon, Morrissey,Shane MacGowan, the Gallagher brothers all off spring from Irish immigration from the 50s and 60s who found something in the local culture and their own to make something different and make something that most people would say is distinctly British.
Possibly Gillian Duffy draws her own heriatage from the same time, the irish were derided and suffered discrimination and violence and did the jobs the host population didn't want (i.e. the lower paid jobs in the main) just as Eastern Europeans do today, but just as the Irish did, so will the Eastern Europeans will lay an abiding marker in the country in their own way.
Why can't the likes of Gillian Duffy understand that and why do politicians have to apologise for making a comment that I myself might have made and why aren't we talking about the point Brown made to her that as many Brits move abroad as Europeans assimilate her.
It is bigoted because instead of a Yorkshire accent next door, she has a Polish accent, just as her or her husband's forebears spoke in an Irish Brogue rather than a Yourkshire one."
"So what your saying is that every country in the EU other than the UK and Ireland is populated by bigots because every single one of them limited migration from Eastern Europe when the EU was expanded in 2004?
As one immigrant to another, I'd like to tell you that you really need to get over yourself."
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"Flock, according to the OED:

So are you 'legitimately' calling Eastern Europeans sheep, birds or Christians?"
"_AT_orchidsoroysters

and so now you hate all polish, or assume that it is the fact that this person was Polish rather than the fact that this person didn't get insurance and can't drive all that well are the important points.
would you have prefered to have been hit by an uninsured english driver?
extrapolating from one incident to stereotype a whole group of people is considered well, bigoted.
can't believe you need to have this explained to you."
Beyond parody.
"Here you have an example of the depoliticised culturalised 'politics' which results from the administration of capitalist economic determinism. The liberal capitalist class have culturalised political life to the degree that issues like race, immigration and identity cannot be addressed as the critical language of real political discourse has been jettisoned in favour of the pragmatic admin language of the private individual and the corresponding economic fetish that is undermining democratic action.
Identity politics has killed genuine political exchange leaving only racists on the one hand and dishonest 'sensitivity' on the other.
Never mind...trudge off to your village halls and schools in May and keep supporting capitalism folks...they'll be needing more and more of your money to ensure liquidity etc etc The greeks may be up the creek but at least people there have the balls to get involved and get active. In good old blighty we just love to moan, watch and do nowt."
"You want a bunch of people to bully an OAP widow. That?s big of you.

Not true. You vote in Council and European Elections here, and you vote in your own Country for national elections.

She?d pass. She?s old enough to have had a proper education.

You chose to do this. If you want sympathy, buy a cat."
"Gillian Duffy had every right to ask the PM that question. Maybe you are the bigot to complain about her freedom of speech?
Immigration is a problem for this small country, if other countries had the influx which we have, then their indigineous population would be asking the same questions.
This article only succeeds to promote the likes of the BNP and not rational debate which is what is ultimately needed.
I would suggest that the author's objectivity is clearly questionable, and that apart from the comments made on this system, nobody is preventing her freedom of speech!"
"Apparently, lots of Australian commenters on other threads last night asking what the fuss was all about, and saying we're all too thin-skinned over here. Calling someone 'bigoted', they were saying, is positively genteel in Oz political discourse.
OK, a different culture and vernacular there, but salutary message perhaps."
And so the smear campaign begins ................ digsusting.
"thfc123

Because they know they'd have been crucified (even further) by the British media if they did so."
I agree completely it is very sad that due to the way politicians need to win votes they have to appeal to the majority. Therefore even if Gordon does think and want to say what he said he can't expect to win votes like that. Even worse though for him is that I agree with what he said and if he'd have come out and said that he ment what he said then I would have had more respect for him. It probably wouldn't have changed where my vote is going but still.
Oh get a grip! I'm Welsh and my stepchildren are Scottish. We put up with much worse.....
I'd be interested to know, given her surname, whether Mrs. Duffy isn't from immigrant stock herself. Duffy is an Irish name, ain't it? 'These flocking Irish,' you can imagine her equivalent asking some decades ago, equally redundantly, 'where are they all coming from?'
I've got a British passport. However, for most of my adult life I've argued that it is class rather than nationality which is the key division in society. I have much more in common with an East European hospital porter or teacher or nurse than I do with the Duke of Edinburgh. Or Richard Branson. Or David Cameron. The reason politicians suck up to bigots is because bigotry is fostered by most of the media and the mainstream political parties, because divide and rule is the name of the game. If people can be made to believe their lives are shit because of Eastern Europeans rather than because of the fact that capitalism systematically screws ordinary people in order to sustain the profits and vast fortunes of the very rich, the better it goes for the very rich. It is essential for those who rule our society that they con us into scapegoating some relatively powerless group, whether blacks, gays, gypsies or immigrants. It's called false consciousness. Or bigotry.
"Those of you commenting along the lines of ""stop whining"" have presumably already forgotten the news footage of Brits, stranded by the ash plume, whinging on about how the locals were 'giving them no support... or food, or transport (back to this far more enlightened and welcoming country). Can you name a single EU country in which expatriate Brits are treated as an underclass, and stereotyped along the same lines as ""Polish plumbers""? If not, what basis have you for responding as though anyone who complains about bigotry in the UK is an over-sensitive ingrate?
And as for the claim that ""Gillian Duffy was just asking a simple factual question"" - please - don't be so disingenuous. She wasn't asking for a geography lesson; she was raising the question of how far the next government should flout EU legislation on the free movement of citizens, in order to favour the interests of UK nationals - and Gordon Brown was being too conciliatory to tell her his real views to her face."
"Debating immigration is always uncomfortable when you're an immigrant yourself, or the child of immigrants, because it feels so personal.
And flocking is a wounding word; a metaphor that compares people with animals is unkind.
Given our glimpse of Gillian Duffy, it's hard to believe she's a bigot though. Just someone who raised immigration amid a scattering of issues that concern her, and borrowed somewhat ugly language from the media to do it.
I thought Brown handled it reasonably well face-to-face, but the conversation in the car was an overreaction. The Vine show and the home visit were agonizing to watch. Because of the initial over-reaction, it became harder to engage with what she'd said in the first place.
And its opened the door for the BNP to pitch a repatriation proposal on the Today programme..."
"I am not an Immigrant, my username is simply a nic name that has stuck with me from childhood, before anyon begin to pre-judge me based on merely my name.
Anyway, now that is out of the way, I am in my mid 20's, I work full time and have friends who have 'flocked' from Eastern Europe to come work here. I don't work in a city, I am working class son of an ex-miner and I am appreciative of those people who come to this country with a desire to work.
In regards to the 'bigotgate' situation, this is the first time, let me repeat that, the FIRST TIME, since it all exploded in the public news that I have finally known why she was referred to by Gordon Brown as a 'bigot' and to be honest, I agree with him. Now I am not going to suggest that there is empirical proof that Ms Duffy is in actual fact a bigot, it could well be that due to her exposure to certain forms of media, the opinion that Eastern Europeans are indeed 'flocking' (somewhat akin to the scene from Jurassic Park, 'They're, erm, they're flocking this way') like a horde of uncontrolled animals, which, let us face facts, certain newspapers are wanting us to believe.
BUT, what I am suggesting is that, had an MP, journalist, public figure used such a turn of phrase, they would be expected to apologise or at the very least explain their opinion, it is the least I would expect to happen.
In regards to Ms Popova's article, it may be a tad dramatic to the outside observer, but the essence of what she is wanting to convey is fair enough and should be respected, not denounced and insulted.
I expected better from the readers of the Guardian, but it seems some readers want those flocking Eastern Europeans to come here and work towards the betterment of our country, but to just be quiet about it and remember to bloody well say thank you at the end!"
"Milena,
You're very brave for saying what me and a lot of other people feel about this and daring to challenge the cosy media consensus. I don't believe Gillian Duffy is an out-and-out bigot, but many of the views she aired (parotted largely from what we're fed every day in the right-wing press) are at best misinformed. Living in London, you see the overwhelming benefits to this country of immigration - which far outweigh any negative consequences.
If Brown should face any criticism at all, it is for pandering to the moronic prejudices of the right-wing press and apologising"
"Mrs Duffy has absolutely nothing to apologise to you for.
It is perfectly reasonable to mention immigration as something that politicians should address and whose scope requires the consent of the people.
Your history and circumstances in no way invalidate her perception of the consequences of immigration. Just because you get angry doesn't make you right - your emotional response is an issue for you. It doesn't create any obligations on anyone else - particularly when your emotional response is so divorced from the reality of what she said.
She said nothing to make her a bigot. She said nothing to deserve your contempt. Your insulting rant it totally out of order.
Democracy requires a demos. There are those that are part of that demos and those that are not. The distinction should be drawn by identifying whether or not you hold a British passport.
Take that distinction away and say goodbye to democracy, the welfare state, community cohesion and all the shared values that bind people across the country together.
Your rant says a great deal more about you and your sense of entitlement than it does about Mrs Duffy's.
Please note, the above is in no way a comment on the characteristics of any person of any nation. It is very specifically about Milena Popova as she has expressed herself here."
"Flocking
Not Flock
Flocking
Jesus wept!"
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"Milena,
I'm glad you wrote this article.
It made me think of all the British folks who migrate to other countries, some small, some large, some do it legally, some do not. Why are they never called immigrants? I used to make a joke to my partner, doesn't matter where one goes on the planet, you will always find a Brit there."
"My anger at Gillian Duffy and all the people who didn't stand up to her
Pathetic, Eastern Europeans have flocked here, even if the flocking has slowed down lately, that's a fact, not racist. If you can't express your worries about your country being overwhelmed and services stretched by poor immigration controls without people calling you a bigot then the world's gone mad.
Way over-sensitive rant, actually a nasty tactic by the Guardian of trying to defend GB's bad attitude to voters by attacking this poor lady again."
"I sympathise with you as well Milena.
From the moment I first heard the news reports I was thinking Brown was right to call her a bigot because what she said *was* unacceptable. I expected the issue to go away. How naive I was!
I think there is a question of hypocrisy in Brown calling her a ""good woman"" to her face, but that can be put down to civility. He is after all dealing with the public, and with the national media.
I'm not even a labour supporter, but I don't wish Brown to lose support over speaking the truth in a private conversation that the press was snooping in on. He's shown all the contrition required and more. Certainly more than I think Gillian Duffy deserved.
I am deeply concerned over this streak of xenophobia which is quietly thriving in this country."
"Just asking politely...

Did nothing disappoint you about your new life before this? If I left my home behind, eyes wide open, I'd expect my new hosts to have some foibles, skeletons in the closet, maybe worse. Spotlight on the concept of entitlement."
"_AT_MilenaPopova
Perhaps it is you that needs to put yourself in other people's shoes and educate yourself. It is true that immigration has made a net contribution to the UK economy but the benefits are unequally distributed. The people who receive almost no benefit from immigration are the white working class, people like Gillian Duffy, who believed that the Labour Party represented their interests.
The WWC have to compete against immigrants for jobs. Immigrants who often have a better education, better skills, and are working for greater incentives because they often send money back home where it is worth more. Even pro-immigration reports have concluded that immigration has had a small but negative effect on wages generally. This is before we even get to the fact that the WWC are often more dependent on services that are put under strain because numbers of new immigrants are not recognised when spending is planned. Finally, I think it is right to take into account people's feelings about how their communities are being changed by immigration. Not negatively, but it is a change over which they have no control. Please remember Milena that you chose to start a new life in a strange country, people whose home towns have changed so much did not have this choice.
As for your swipe at British people's sense of entitlement, I'm flabbergasted. British people should feel entitled to a livelihood and political representation, because this is their home country. You seem to think you are more entitled to vote than a British citizen, which is a notion I find quite offensive.
I've lived as an immigrant in (v briefly) Poland, Spain, and Hong Kong and so I do understand how hard it is to start a new life somewhere else. I also think you should show respect towards the people whose country you've emigrated to. This article is just self-justification and shows no interest in why some British people are antipathetic towards immigration. Why don't you find some of these people and ask them, in a nice way, and tell them you are just trying to educate yourself.
Or at least stop being so f***ing patronising."
"My word - Flocking
Your word - Flock
Can you spot the difference?
Jesus wept!"
Mrs Duffy is only voicing concerns felt by lots of people of her generation in the North and politicians haven't done enough to put them at ease on the subject of immigration. Papers like the Mail do nothing but fan the flames of fear and scaremongering among this population. Poor Mrs Duffy, ofcourse she's allowed to ask Gordon about it.
tim0 : ah yes, the Duke of Edinburgh... that flocking Greco-Danish immigrant... ;^)
I agree! GB was right for once. Great article.
"MilenaPopova

Milena, much like you describe, I am seething with anger right now. But for rather different reasons. I don't want to be deleted, so I am going to try my hardest to be painfully polite here.
I live in an area of inner city Manchester that is very similar to the area Gillian Brown lives in nearby Rochdale. We have had strong immigrant communities for decades. Our children go to very mixed schools and play with each other, our friends and neighbours are variously white British, black, Asian, Irish, Chinese, African and European. We befriend each other, frequent each others' shops, businesses, takeaways etc etc etc. We chat to each other in the queue for Netto. Many of us date each other. Mixed relationships are very common. The last time the BNP put up a candidate for the council they got about 50 votes here.
We muddle through, and we get on with each other.
Over the past 5 years, our community has been rapidly and dramatically transformed. Within a square quarter mile around a thousand East European Roma have moved in. They have become the single largest ethnic minority almost overnight in our particular neighbourhood. It has caused both practical and emotional turmoil for many people. We are a very tolerant, diverse community. There has been no rioting, no firebombing, no racist graffiti. We've been generally welcoming and friendly to individuals.
But again and again, I have heard my neighbours say things like 'where have all these Eastern Europeans come flocking from?' It's a genuine question. People cannot understand why they are here, why they have come to this country and in particular, why they have come to our neighbourhood. They just genuinely don't get it. Nobody thought to warn us it might happen. Nobody bothered to explain.
I can understand you feeling hurt by what happened yesterday, but don't you dare tell people like Gillian Duffy to educate themselves. Don't you dare tell people like me to 'educate ourselves.' Don't tell us to 'talk to immigrants' as if we've never met an immigrant in our lives before.
And above all, don't you dare tell people like my friends and neighbours, someone like Mrs Duffy, to become a 'better person.'
How dare you?
How fucking dare you?"
"leftofwhat - are you a member of the BNP? Your language seems to indicate this.
What exactly is a 'native' Briton, given that they are Kelts, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons (a hybrid in itself), Normans and much more thanks to the exploits of Empire? If you want an 'ethnically pure' Britain we shouldn't have gone around the world massacring people and then enticing their relatives over here to rebuild our shattered country after WWII, should we?"
"Oh boo-hoo. Isn't the normal right wing refrain that everyone show self-reliance and stand on their own two feet? Then these ""normal British people"" of whom you speak should get off their arses and learn some bloody non-generic skills shouldn't they, the lazy fucks.
Your posturing as a Champion of the Working Man is about as convincing as Nick ""Cambridge"" Griffin's.

Fine talk from you, RudiGunn, since you're so often heard to complain that ""leftists"" are ""censoring"" debate and stifling your ""free speech"".
So unless the author of this piece agrees with the slanted viewpoint you've presented, she has no right to be part of the debate, eh? Charming."
"I am a Uk citizen living In Eastern Europe and I am huge supporter of Eastern Europeans livin in the Uk. They are brave, hard working, resilient and the petty bigotry I see on these sites appalls me.
Milena, I am horrified that not more ""fluffy"" libs don't stand up for you. You have one here. I even had a minor hit two years ago trying to get the whole of England to support Poland in Euro 2008. Google londontowarsaw
Generallly Britian is a tolerant place and I take great pride in that. Less Gillian Duffy, but more the disgiusting aftermath and righteousness, really rerally saddened me
By all means attack anybody who fiddles the benefit system, whatever colour, nationality or creed. What is totally unacceptable is generalising about a minority who respresent some of the most hard working, worst paid people in the country."
"Gillian Brown?
Don't think she married him did she?
Gillian Duffy, I meant."
"I'm not sure you understand how words work?
Just so you know, 'flocking' present participle of 'flock'."
"I, and millions like me, agree with what Gillian Duffy said about immigrants.
Does that mean I'm a bigot? I don't know. All I can say that if it does, then I really couldn't care less, and being called an insulting name for daring to have my own opinion about a certain matter will not change my mind. In fact, it only reinforces my view."
"_AT_racingsnake I never once claimed the Brits abroad are great. I never claimed that other countries are not better than ours or that complaining about bigotry was a bad thing. I pointed out that this particular woman is not a bigot. She asked about the budget deficit, about tuition fees, about her three priorities of education, the health service and protecting vulnerable people. What a bigot she must be!

Indeed. And you're right, he didn't answer her questions because he immediately dismissed her as a bigot and not worth addressing. Why you think UKIP and the BNP have risen? Attitudes like this. We need to stop being so condescending and answer the sodding questions. It should not be a crime to ask them."
As discussed, it is a legitimate term, however are you aware of the Pole of Peterborough who have taken up living in people's sheds.
"Milena,
""Anger at Gillian Duffy, anger at all the people who weren't willing to stand up to her.""
Are you completely off your trolly? Mrs Duffy was out for a walk to the shops, minding her own business, when she was introduced to Gordon Brown by one of his aides. She didn't go out humble him or to disparage anyone else. She was polite and so was he; so what was there to stand up to?
Why do you assume Mrs Duffy is a bigot and not somebody for is talking about what she sees around her? The flow of people into Britain from Eastern Europe has been been on a far larger and faster scale than anything seen in recent years. Are people not allowed to talk about it? Is it only for politicians to discuss immigration on leadership debates like last week? Or is it a taboo subject only to be referred to in defence?
Ever immigrant into a nation has a story, a real life, cares, fears and aspirations. As do the people they live amongst. Many families can trace their immigrant relatives one or two generations ago (I certainly can in my family), and that was a time when a 'flock of' would have been one of the very least offensive descriptions a typical pensioner might use. I have lived and worked abroad; yes it can be lonely - but you just get over it as that's offset by the benefits.
If that's the kind of thing that makes you break down into tears - take a deep breath, smile and don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone is out to get you."
Given the rest of your "taking all our jobs" rant, this is supremely ironic. I doubt if you've ever tried to see the other person's point of view in your entire angry little life.
Excellent article and fair play to the Guardian for having the balls to represent this important perspective. Is Duffy a female Nick Griffin? No, but the left needs to guard against this normalization of bigotted language, which is a barrier against any politics based on class solidarity which needs to be our focus.
"Can you name a single EU country in which British people have emigrated en masse and do the jobs ""locals don't WANT to do""? I can't.

A)Most people don't live in London.
B)I'm not sure that lowly paid Londoners would share your enthusiasm for immigration.

They are, by the people in the countries they emigrate to. That's how it works. To us they are emigrants or ex-pats. To the Polish people in Poland, their countryfolk who have moved to Britain are the same."
"Milena, I've read the transcript of the whole interview. Gillian Duffy is a bigot and I would happily tell her so to her face, which is more than Brown did. She also displays a bewildering ignorance of the rights of EU citizens.
The story is not about that, it is about Gordon Brown being willing to call her a bigot behind her back, and criticising his own staff for setting up an interview with her - basically blaming anybody but himself for his own crass mistake. And that raises a valid question as to the personality and integrity of the man we might or might not want to elect as prime minister.
You are very welcome to work here as far as I am concerned, but you protest a little too much, and the British people are better than you think. The electorate will tell Gordon Brown what we think of him next week. I don't think you will be displeased."
"Epic Lulz
(as the yoof say)
All the people who were displaying rather pathetic and unconvincing faux outrage over Broon's comment yesterday are now telling Milena to get a grip.
You couldn't make it up.....well obviously you can and will :)
What Mrs Duffy said was fairly mild and Gordon's ""gaffe"" was equally mild. (Where was the reputed foul mouthed vulcanism he is supposed to exhibit at every turn?)
You are all mental or desperate or both."
"AllyF
not wanting to denigrate your own personal experience, but statistically far more Roma have emigrated to latin countries like Italy and Spain than have come to the UK - it's a language thing. Sadly, Italy and Spain aren't exactly renowned for their tolerant attitude towards immigrants and I hope the UK doesn't go the same route. If we do we'll be throwing banana skins at black football players again soon."
For someone who has lived in the UK for ten years, Miss Popova, you appear to have little or no grasp about the concerns many people have in relation to immigration into the UK.
"_AT_AllyF
Thank you. That was wonderful."
"What Gordon should have said is either:
'Where are these Eastern Europeans flocking from? Eastern Europe you cretin' or 'that woman was an annoying, idiotic old bag' . You can't throw the 'b' word around so lightly during an election campaign.
Don't fret pet. This is an overblown media storm not a personal attack by the public on you or anyone else from 'abroad'. Roll on May 7th."
"""A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices..""
Mrs Davis listned to GB and after the interview said she was impressed by what he said she cannot be called a bigot!
""flocking"" is the collective motion of a large number of self-propelled entities and is a collective animal behavior exhibited by many living beings
Her choise of words is niether insulting or incorrect.
Gordon Browns behavior show him to be both a hypocrite and a bigot"
As the grandson of 'flocking' east Europeans, I think this is a very good article! This is basically Murdoch setup trying to shift the focus Cameron's loss of ground to Clegg. If anyone believes that in this global economy, the blame for Britain's ills can be laid at the door of immigration, they are expressing bigoted views (it may be possible that they are too simple or ill informed to be branded as bigoted).
Gillian Duffy obviously has strong opinions on immigration. I don't see what the problem is. The UK is a democracy and people should be entitled to say whather they agree with the government's immigration policies without being accused of being a bigot.
"Since she is a guest here, and this an issue about the natives, she could at least make the effort to understand our POV before lecturing us in that snidey and patronising way about being better people. I'm with Ally F on that one.

I do know how words work. One is the term gillian Duffy used, and one isn't. She didn't say they were a flock, she said they had been flocking.
I have googled the word and once you get through the contemporary references you find many for the beahviour of crowds, shoppers on Boxing Day and so on.
The word was legititmate and you would have to have a mind as ugly as Browns to think it makes someone a bigot to use it."
"why do people say the Guardian is world's most sanctimonious newspaper, normally read by bleeding-heart types??
where's the evidence?"
"FoucaultsNightmare
""The difference is between the words and the person speaking them.
She has been fed the line by the media that Eastern Europeans are ""flocking"" here. It is unfortunate that she believes the media - but a lot of people still do.
The words are not hers, and yes, the words are bigotted. She however is not a bigot. ""
Well said!"
The white working class are not one big cuddly group, they are very diverse and most of us do not support ignorance and bigotry. You can be working class, read the Guardian and not be a racist, please don't forget that and if Mrs Duffy was my mother, gran or aunt, I would tell her that she was offensive and try and educate her to why. I would not be using her as an icon of the "poor victims in the white working classes" she is no Edith Cavall or Rosa Parks, she is simply a disillusioned northern woman who is blaming society's ills on the immigrants.
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"So everyone should become ""middle-class, educated professionals""? In that case, who would do the jobs requiring only generic skills?
The country should be run so that everyone has the opportunity to earn a respectable living, whether they work emptying bins, or as a lawyer. To gerrymander the system through immigration, ensuring that a large proportion of your population sees a drop in their living standards so that a minority can see theirs rise, is nothing short of evil, particularly coming from a party whose reason d'etre was to represent the interests of normal working-class people."
"_AT_ JeevanVasagar:

Interesting deconstruction of the 'flocking' usage, Jeevan. Like pigeons, perhaps, with connotations of nuisance and vermin. That hadn't occurred to me. Just slightly more of an echo, then, with the Margaret Thatcher's notorious 'swamped' remark before '79 election than I had registered before."
"Wow. There are some vile comments on this thread. Whether or not Mrs Duffy is a bigot (something none of us can know based on her limited remarks), there are certainly a hell of a lot of bigots on the Guardian comments thread.
Milena, I am sorry that so many Brits are ignorant bigots. I wish they weren't. But not all of us are."
"Milena, there are plenty of really bigoted people in the UK. I think singling out this woman for a seemingly innocuous comment is wrong when there are many real targets out there. Read any Littlejohn article, for instance.
I came here from Northern Ireland and have a British passport yet still get people accusing me of stealing jobs. My usual reply is usually along the lines of: ""if you educated yourself properly, you could have had my job""; or ""that's what you get for occupying my country for hundreds of years""."
You have my 100% support. People from Eastern European backgrounds are making a huge contribution to the UK's economy and society. I was embarrassed by Mrs Duffy's rant. And am now embarrassed that all the media are treating her as a poor harmless sweet old grannie. Her views are toxic. No one would now say what she said on live TV about migrants from black or Asian backgrounds. People from other parts of Europe deserve the same respect as any one else.
"_AT_stevehill

So call her IGNORANT then. She's not a bigot. What, pray, did she say that displayed an intolerance of other people's opinions? How was she biased except in favour of benefits to the people that need it most; of free education; of a good health service?
She wants answers and nobody has ever bothered explaining immigration policy to her. She doesn't understand. That does not make her a bigot."
Can't the media just leave the poor woman alone? It's you lot who are the bullies, not Gordon Brown. And that includes priviledged media commentators who are immigrants from Eastern Europe. I'm sorry Milena, but you are the last person who is disenfranchised.
"~

By 'bigot', do you mean someone with a narrow outlook, who refuses to consider others point of view, labels them, and calls them offensive names based on stereotypes ?
Just wondered thats all...
( Oh the irony. )
~"
"Is that Politician to Politician or Politician to Public.
If the former, then no worries.
If the latter, then they need to reassess."
"Milena, thank you for writing this article.
Many people in this country have a gift for subtly humiliating 'foreigners' and I am sure you have been at the receiving end of them all - speaking slowly, asking 'Where are you from?' when the question is not at all relevant to the situation, talking about 'back home' when the person has lived here for three decades and has a sole, British passport etc etc You cannot change this. And the British are not the only nation behaving like this. Although perhaps the most hurtful. It goes on even in the corridors of ostensibly enlightened and egalitarian institutions.
Mrs Duffy was not even in that league. She was simply...bigoted. Her 'question' was irrelevant and inappropriate for the tone of the meeting. It was something she spewed out. Brown should have responded directly but to his credit he remained civil. Some voters may switch to Labour as a result."
"Well Milena Popova you need to look at things from our point of view.
A few months ago I had because of urgent family business to visit my old home area of High Wycombe.
I was shocked to the point of tears at one point and wondered if I had missed passport control and the border.
It just is no longer England, and many English towns are now the same.
Working class white English people now feel marginalised and forgotten in the place of their birth.
This is due to the sheer numbers of immigrants ""flocking"" to some areas, it is not bigotry to feel uneasy about it."
"I think the something that's been overlooked was Nick Robinson's comment on the 10 o'clock news last night, that The S(c)un(m) had interviewed Mrs Duffy but had ""not found her sufficiently interesting"" to run an interview.
Not ""sufficiently interesting"" in what sense? Not slagging off Gordon Brown enough? Or perhaps not ""sufficiently interesting"" to their agenda.
Maybe in her not ""sufficiently interesting"" interview she put forward other views that bore out Brown's opinion and that Mrs Duffy is nothing but a bigot."
"Damn good article and as predicted, the backlash has already started on Mrs Duffy.

The fact that Gordon Brown has been pilloried in the media has completely overlooked the fact that what this woman was saying was in fact - bigoted!!
And now, the media seek to give further legitimacy to those views from the likes UKIP to be given prime-time space on the radio to whip-up an anti-immigration frenzy by telling bare-faced lies about 'uncontrolled immigration'.
I despair."
It's the election and political parties and the right-wing media are looking for scapegoats in order to supposedly ingratiate themselves to what they see as us 'dangerous, great unwashed, ignorant masses'. The think we're really stupid and bigoted and the main groups that they try to whip up hostility towards are immigrants, gays, transsexuals, the unemployed and those on low incomes. It's like a British version of the pogroms that used to occur in eastern Europe until quite recently.
"That woman was BIGOTED. Period.
Sorry for the pain you suffered Milena."
"thfc
""It beggars belief that any low skilled or semi skilled person could ever vote Labour. Wise up, they loathe you""
I am low skilled and semi skilled - who do you suggest I vote for?"
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"""My anger at Gillian Duffy and all the people who didn't stand up to her""
My anger at the entire news media and all the people who waste time on this non story while there are far more important questions like:
Why did the entire media go along with only considering The Trio of Neos ideas (Neo-Labour, Neo-Conservative, and Neo Liberal) as being the only ideas we should consider.
Brown continues Thatchers policies, Cameron is a closet Thatcherite, and Clegg?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/11/nick-clegg-praises-margaret-thatcher
says it all really.
There now remains a ""choice"" of a right wing government, a right wing government, or a right wing government. So the distraction coming from the right wing media happens to be some kind of right wing straw man debate.
Very convenient. It means the election can be distracted from much larger and much more REAL issues.The unemployed know wages are kept down by a compliant import of labour from poorer economies but never is the issue of the hidden unemployed in government mickey mouse schemes raised by any of these Right Wing Trio of Neos.
Very very convenient.
Let me guess the other two parties have just not been caught with the same game and really it does not matter which party it was done to it suits them all."
"How did the British working classes go from being salt-of-the-earth spine of industrial Britain to being derided as lazy chavs, benefit scum, bigots, idiots, and everything else under the sun?
It seems that every time immigration is dicussed you get posters who delight in telling us they prefer the immigrants because they work harder, and the British worker is somehow essentially lazy and feckless.
I don't like to hear racist views, I think that immigration has benefitted our country, and I am politically active on the centre left. But I find it extremely distrubing that the concerns of the least advantaged people in our society are ignored and then those people are sneered at."
"Isn't it amazing that everybody is freely talking about the ""flocking"" Eastern Europeans, who almost to a man/woman has worked hard in this country without costing the tax payer a single penny, has made no demands on religious or cultural front and has asked no favours from the housing, social services or the police or indeed of the politicians. And many, hundreds of thousands have now left our shores just as quietly as they came. Yet they're portrayed as pariahs!
Why not a word on, say the Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or indeed the newest addition to our multicultural family, the Somalis?
Those that single out Eastern Europeans are the real bigots."
"I am on first name terms with one of the guys who washes cars at my local sainsburys. It's a fiver to wash my car. I give him a tenner each time.
I know he has a daughter of a similar age to mine back home who he hasn't seen in 2 years. I looked up how much a return flight to Uganda might cost so he could see her again, but at £700 each way it's just prohibitive. Besides, I don't even know he'd be able to get back into the UK. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was on an expired student visa.
If it wasn't for people like him, I doubt there'd be a car washing service at my sainsburys. I don't get the sense it's a job British people want to do, so I hardly think he's 'over here, taking our jobs', so to speak.
So Milena, I do 'know' an immigrant and I have spoken to him and indeed learnt something. And that's to be thankful I don't have to wash cars everyday thousands of miles away from my family.
But that doesn't stop your article being complete hogwash. Gillian Duffy is no bigot. If you feel vulnerable or unwanted or persecuted by living in Britain I'm afraid you can't blame people like Gillian Duffy.
Follow the money a few dozen rungs up the social ladder right to whereabouts Gordon Brown and his ilk reside, and there's who you should be pointing your finger at."
"""You need to grow a thicker skin. Gillian Duffy was not bigoted, she simply asked where all of the Eastern Europeans were flocking from. ""
From Eastern Europe obviously and I suspect she knows that. It's a figure of speech, she knows where they come from she's just not happy that they're here."
"Milena: the people here are tribal and feel threatened. One comes to a new country and wants to feel safe; this sort of incident adds to the unease that one feels. I understand why you'd cry, and why there'll be a lot of baffled people considering you a bit wet.
It is terrible that it is only who the media decides are victims that politicians make a fuss over, but politicians need to be elected in order to do their jobs.
People are lazy; they like their opinions prepackaged, like convenience food. Me included: I make a huge impact on my opinions by buying the Guardian.
It is slightly better here now than when I was a child in the 70s. I think my experiences probably haven't been as bad as my parents'.
But the people here, I'm sure they're like people *everywhere*, and feel uncomfortable with the not-we, especially when they're propagandised to. If anything, the people here are probably a bit better. Take the shock of being discriminated against, and do something positive with it."
"JosephStash:

I fear you're confusing 'Guardian readers' with 'people who comment on CiF'"
One can almost see Malcolm Tucker standing behind Milena as she types.
"I think the problem is that people very easily forget this. They start to conflate you and others like you with the illegal immigrants, or those who come to the country and then sponge off it (happily forgetting that native Britons are just as mixed a bunch of decent people and lazy sods!!). They also readily forget that immigrants perform a lot of menial but very necessary jobs that natives consider beneath them.
It's just too easy to blame anything that's ""other"" while forgetting that actually, it's more complicated than that and you can't so dismissively pigeonhole an entire group of people. You're right, it is racist. Good for you speaking up."
"AllyF
Bravo. You have managed to say what I wanted to, but rather more eloquently that I am able.
Shame I can only recommend you once."
Doesn't Gordon Brown get it? Immigration of low skilled workers keeps the wage of low skilled workers down - it's no suprise that Labour's traditional code vote are against it.
"Ah, did the little old lady make the big girl cry?
Where's your anger at:
- Gordon Brown's obvious contempt for ordinary people who don't share his views?
- Gordon Brown for failing to make a case for open borders and the right of people to move around our world freely?
Most of your anger seems to be directed at a little old lady not those in power and your arguments seem more based in emotion than logic...you don't make a compelling argument..."
"I can't quite believe some of the comments posted here Milena - and there was I thinking all us Guardian readers were a bunch of 'lefty liberals'. You have not over-reacted at all - Mrs Duffy did display bigotted views and quite frankly I'm glad Gordon Brown recognises that.
What a dreadfully boring place this grey, miserable damp country would be without the colour and vibrancy a range of cultures bring to it. Thank you for being here Milena & contributing to our society & economy. And thank you indeed to all the very, very many other Eastern European men & women who do the many low paid jobs that the British white trash are too lazy to do. What a mess we would be in without you - it is about time you were paid a decent, living wage."
"mattseaton

Perhaps you should stop using it then.
There are many more, these are just the first three non Brown related usages I found."
"""flocking""
euphemism as in Father Ted?
;)"
Absolutely brilliant! Duffy's outburst and the reaction to it demonstrates once again the increasing acceptability of racist sentiment in mainstream culture. I really hope this article enables Daily Mailers to empathise with someone who is constantly informed that there are 'too many' of her type. Unfortunately, as some of the above comments seem to indicate, this doesn't seem likely.
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"I have mixed feelings about 'Bigotgate"", but I have very clear feelings on immigration.
Obviously her perceptions of immigration do reflect some peoples concerns (and this always tends to happen when any group who can readily be identified as 'foreign' come to live and work in a country in large enough numbers). Is it actually bigotry or ignorance? Or a bit of both?
Where I live we have a noticeable number of people from Eastern Europe living here now.
We also have other immigrants living in our area that nobody seems to comment about - we have a lot of Americans, quite a few Australians, South Africans and Canadians (my wife being one of the Canadians).
Personally I feel that immigration is the lifeblood of a nation and that the greatest strength of the UK is that we are the result of successive waves of it that have helped to build and define our culture and our very sense of 'Britishness'. Long may it continue. The energy people bring, the different cultural perspectives and the variety all help to make us a creative, dynamic place to live.
I think your suggestion that people should make personal connections with immigrants is a very good one. It makes a big difference to both parties - its not easy starting over in a new country and immigrants need to make friendships in the communities they come to live in for their own support as well as because it helps to break down prejudices people may have. The recent articles suggesting that things like BNP support tend to pool in areas where immigration is low rather than where it is high strongly supports this."
"_AT_farga
""By the way, my view is the more eastern europeans here, the merrier - they work hard and are generally well behaved and contribute rather than leech like so many of the indigenous folk.""
What you are saying about indegenous people of this country is a gross generalisation and very bigoted.The vast majority of Brits are hard working and decent and many just take exception to the fact that wages are being driven down and jobs are hard to come by and in part that is caused by mass immigration from Eastern Europe.
Also if the author of this article is really upset she needs to stop being so easily offended because what the old lady said was perfectly reasonable."
"Thanks Mili
I'm with you on this. Speaking as an ostensible 'English man', I am tired of listening to 'immigration' being used as a euphemism for racist argument.
Gordon was right. Mrs Duffy was making a racist (i.e. bigoted) remark. I wish he had stuck to his guns, but of course the media would have had even more of a feeding frenzy than they are, if he had.
We do have to conclude that probably more than 3/4 of the population of the country is racist and the media has sanitised (and fuelled) such views under the immigration banner.
What a mess. Personally I try to focus on our common humanity - all of us. It is difficult to embrace such bigotry though."
"Ms Popova. Following your own advice, why don't YOU go and talk to some people like Mrs Duffy and ask them how THEY feel seeing their communities swamped with immigrants? How they feel going into a shop where cashier doesn't speak English? How they feel when their children are in a school were half the kids in the class don't speak English? How they feel when they see themselves becoming an ethnic minority in their own country? How they feel watching desperately scarce jobs, houses and funding going to immigrants when they and their families are in dire need of them? And to top it off, how they feel when if they dare to talk about any of this, the PC brigade howls a stream of abuse at them for daring to get ideas above their station in life.
People like you and Gorden Brown have been desperate to stop people protesting about the tidal wave of immigration that has hit this country since 1997. A trend which we recently found out, this was done largely for ideological, and political reasons. And you have done it by the threat of being labelled a racist, or bigot.
And no, you don't get a vote in the BRITISH general election, why on earth would you?"
"It's been proved by the government's own figures that immigration doesn't benefit the economy and in fact there is a cost to local government who have to house, educate and provide free health care to them and their children. Migration watch have also produced figures which say that the benefit of immigration to British people equates to a Mars bar or 60p each.
The old lefty lie that we need immigration is still being peddled out and believed by many. If the government set up a re-training programme for the 8.5 million economically inactive people in this country we would have all the labour we need. The downside of rampant levels of immigration is more jobs are created to provide services for the increased population than can be filled locally.
Before you criticize the electorate for daring to mention the immigration word just remember that Labour embarked on the open door immigration policy not for any economic reasons but solely to bolster their flagging vote. Who are the bigots now?"
Grow up
Gillian Duffy was raising a legitimite concern of a vast amount of the country's electorate. She's not Stephen Fry and didn't couch it in the subtlest terms. But she's a hard working, law abiding core voter, Mrs Everywoman if you like, which is why the balloon went up. Brown's remark was the usual knee kerk reaction of any one remotely on the left when the subject of immigration is mentioned. If the Gillian Duffy's of this world are not allowed a voice on this issue ergo we have a proper debate then she will feel disenfranchised, her views will harden and the next person coming round for tea will be Nick Griffiths.
Good on ya Milena. It needs saying.
Thank you for this excellent article.
"_AT_Mili - I'm curious as to why you don't choose to become British?
You are evidently keen to become involved in British society - so why the hesitation? In your blog you say:
""With the general election fast approaching, I'm finding myself in a dilemma. I am not British, and while I have been living here for 10 years I have reasons for not applying for British citizenship (mostly to do with the fact that the country I'm currently a citizen of will not let me have dual citizenship). So in the coming general election, I have no voice.""
So because Bulgaria demands you show committment to their polity, you aren't prepared to show committment to ours? What is the benefit in continuing to be a Bulgarian?
What are the benefits to the UK in the long-term of having people here who identify more with a foreign country than the host country? Surely that can't be helpful or useful in building a better society?
(Especially as Bulgaria more closely fits your definition of bigoted - with 80% prejudice against homosexuals, mistreatment of Roma and the disabled, and prejudice against Macedonian immigrants - even to the extent of banning their political party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bulgaria)"
That is who people ARE pointing the finger at. I haven't seen anyone, including Mrs Duffy, blaming the Eastern Europeans personally, or any other group of immigrants for that matter. The fault lies entirely with the government for acquiescing to the wishes of a minority of wealthy people to the detriment of the majority of British working people.
"_AT_ Milena Popova

All true I've no doubt, and yet it's still not right to call that woman a bigot for expressing concerns over the huge influx of Eastern Europeans into Britain. Like most things in life there are pluses (which you mention) and negatives (housing pressure, jobs pressure). I can't comment on Rochdale, but perhaps in some areas the negatives have outweighed the positives.
From my perspective allowing economic migration has worked well, we've allowed a lot of culturally similar people to do many of the jobs we don't want to do anyway for low pay. Both sides have benefited. But I imagine people in the low skilled work sector will see this influx differently: and I'd put that down more to self-interest than bigotry."
Bit of British stiff upper lip required my girl!
Oh for goodness sakes. She was not a bigot. She was merely voicing the fact, I believe, that Britain is too small and under-resourced for lots and lots of people to come here, no matter where they are from. It's not about racism. I bet the countries that have flocks and flocks of Brits rocking up are less than pleased as well, but we never hear both sides of the story. There's nothing wrong at all with someone moving to another country for another life, trying to better themselves, and as you say, paying into the system etc... But if that country is small and drained of money and resources in the first place, how is that right? I am sure if you were back in your home country and it was reversed you would no doubt be bleating about your own sense of self-entitlement. Yes, you over-reacted.
"Dearie me! Such a lot of tears.
I had a little touch of the sniffles myself reading this."
"Lets be clear; Mrs Duffy is entitled, in a free society, to hold her views, even bigoted views. I have to say that Mrs Duffy did not give me the impression that she was a bigot
Gordon Brown is also entitled, in a free society, to hold his views as well as his private views.

Should there be a law to protect private views? This would help to stop desperate for news ,Sky News, and those with a regular fondness for hacking phones, from milking private situations."
"Big of you

Report him to the authorities then

Actually it is a job a Brit doesn?t want to do, and you are that Brit. I can remember seeing car washes at my local garage thrity years ago, so that argument is nonsense.

Nor does he."
"That Gordon Brown should hold a Labour Voter in contempt in what he thought was a private conversation says some important things about Gordon Brown.
For the Guardian to repeat the insult, publicly, to Mrs Duffy and to attempt to justify that insult is disgusting.
I often admire AllyF's comments although I usually disagree with them, but he has nailed it this time."
"I am a British citizen making use of my right to live and work anywhere in the EU (in my case Belgium). I have lost my right to vote in UK elections, having left the country more than 15 years ago, which to be honest I think is fair enough considering that I don't pay taxes in the UK. The last UK election I voted in was 1997 (in my case Labour).
However, I do pay a lot of taxes here in Belgium, and find it frustrating that I have no right to vote in regional or national elections here. The only way to get the vote would be to apply for Belgian nationality, which would also mean giving up my UK passport. Something I am reluctant to do for sentimental reasons that I expect most other Brits will understand.
I agree with Milena that all European citizens should be allowed to vote in the country where they are resident (pay taxes and use services, etc.), if they can prove a minimum of 12 months continuous residence. But then of course we shouldn't also be allowed to vote in the country where we retain citizenship. Spain is one of the countries that allows its expat citizens to vote. For example I read somewhere that Miriam González Durántez (Nick Clegg's wife) is a Spanish citizen and so she votes in Spain (not in the UK).
At least all EU citizens have the right to vote in local elections where they live and for example in 2008 both Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson actively courted the votes of non-UK EU citizens living in London."
Oh aye. The cheek of it - British citizens daring to imagine that they're entitled to anything in Britain. Bloody bigots, the lot of them.
"Milena,
I missed the reports of this incident but have now watched the report at the head of this thread.
I see no problem with Mrs Duffy having voiced her concerns about the effect that immigration either has, or is perceived to have on sections of British Society. I also thought the Gordon Brown handled the question well, particularly as he is not usually adept at meeting the public. He stood up and spoke on your behalf.
What concerns me is the way in which Mrs Duffy was being used. Gordon Brown's off-air remarks made it clear that these meet the public events are heavily stage managed. The other unpleasant aspect, one which you are now contributing to, is the way that the media have set out to use Mrs. Duffy to their own ends. The reporter could not keep the glee out of her voice as she ambushed the lady and Mrs Duffy was clearly emotionally distressed when she was told what had been said.
All politicians show us the public face, and then reveal their true, private, one.
You proudly claim to pay UK tax at the Higher rate and believe that you make a net contribution to the UK economy. I would hazard a guess that Mrs. Duffy also makes a net contribution. I'm certain that very many East Europeans make a net contribution. I'm also equally certain that there are some who make no contribution whatsoever, as do some native bred people. However I wonder how somebody, who relies for their identity by following 'celebrities' on Twitter, manages to secure a higher tax Payer income.
Your remark suggesting that Mrs Duffy should be required to take a citizens test is a remark far too far. It was actually rather aggressive both in tone and context. It has undertones of be off with you, you don't earn as much as me!"
"Milena Popova
Thanks for telling us that we must like immigration.
Some immigration is good, some is bad. The unplanned unmanaged unbalanced immigration of the last 50 years has been bad."
"As a passport-holding daughter of an Eastern European immigrant I have to say that I agree with elements of the article. Yesterday I heard Brown had called a pensioner a bigot and had to wait until a lot later in the day to find out what the accusation referred to, and whether or not it was deserved. I am sick of being told that rooms in classrooms are being taken over by undeserving immigrants, sick of hearing that jobs are going to lazy Poles and am sick of fighting the corner of hardworking immigrants that have come to this country.
Initially I was outraged at the comments. I thought ?yes she is a bigot?, and it made me consider voting for this man. But after careful consideration I just thought that it?s more what the comments stand for than what was said. It was one step away from adding ?send them all back?, but it did not go so far. I think they represent a school of thought that is bigoted, certainly.
I don?t think Milli needs to ?get a grip?. I think she is, like me, totally worn down with the negative, every-day comments that we are all used to. This, for many of us, has been the straw which has broken the camels back. And if that provoked tears which have been held back for five years we shouldn?t criticise it."
"""Well Milena Popova you need to look at things from our point of view""
Excuse me, ""our"" point of view. I don't share that point of view. Are you the sort of person who feels ""uneasy"" when you walk past people talking a different language? Or people of a different ethnicity? Or even colour (as your ""white"" comment suggests)?!
Immigration is the lifeblood of this country. What do you think would happen if you sent away all of the immigrants to this country? Just ask Idi Amin.
And no, I expect you don't think Gillian's a bigot. Because you're a bigot too."
"Old lady without perfect oratory skills doesn't articulate herself particularly well when she meets the Prime Minister in front of many TV cameras and she is bigotted.
Prime Minister in prepared speech written by professional speech writers after much training in presentation skills says 'British Jobs for British Workers' and feels able to call someone else a bigot.
I bet you couldn't move for a week when you heard that one
I mean; seriously? BNP leaflet through the letterbox would bring on an anaphalactic shock.
Perhaps a more pertinant response would have been about why the lady used the language she used? It is eas to sneer when you work in relatively secure employment but there are large parts of society who are having to compete with recent migrant labour and the main differentiator is that the migrant labour is cheap. People are competing solely on price and when that happens there may, just may, be a tiny glimpse of resentment against those migrants. Doesn't mean that people are bigotted. It does mean they recognise competition"
"Her comment on 'Eastern Europeans' was a non-question, void of meaning. Eastern Europeans, where are they flocking from? Answer's in the question.
Aside from that knee-jerk reaction to the concept of immigration, I just see Gordon Brown's knee-jerk reaction to the general public.
His only regret is getting caught out.
From now on, all politicians on the campaign trail should be wired for live sound and vision all the time. That would certainly keep them 'on message'."
"Whatever the outcome and despite the tears there is no more room. It doesn;t matter what colour you are or where you are from, we will close our doors if we have an ounce of sense.
AS for Brown----------------bigot is a catch all phrase for anyone who sees what your open door immigration policy has done to this country."
"rickyatgosport

...
That'll be the descendants of the massive waves of Angle, Saxon & Jute immigration in the 4th-6th centuries, then?"
"My father and I both emigrated to Britain several years ago, and I am in fact a serial emigré. Here's my opinion:
How dare you demand a vote, are you a British citizen? No, so why should you vote? Because you pay taxes? You pay taxes to pay for the privilege of and to pay for living within a society and infrastructure that allows you to earn a living and live the way you want. Do you think this infrastructure (as shaky as it is) grew on a tree?
If you wish to be democratically enfranchised then maybe you should return to your native 'Eastern Europe' or apply for British citizenship. There are no two ways. Yes I am deeply fascinated and affected by this election but I am not a British citizen therefore I do not deserve a vote, no matter how many taxes I have paid or how many years service I and my father have given the British civil service.
Lastly, this woman is not a bigot, she is ignorant which is a big difference. If I having lived in London for over a decade held this opinion, I would be a bigot because I would have to be blind to ignore the positive effects of immigration (even if there clearly are problems with immigration, like the fact that is it vastly unregulated, hence her flocking comment, and your ludicrous statement that ALL immigrants come to work. It is NOT racist or bigoted to suggest that lazy workshy cheats/criminals come from abroad as well as Britain). However this woman is from Rochdale (no offense Rochdalians) where she may a)only see the negative effects of immigration and b) being old she has seen her country change beyond belief and if every old person who is afraid of change, losing what she knew as a child and fearing for her children's future, then my grandparents, yours and everyone elses are bigots too.
Useless article and Brown has once again proved who totally out of touch he is with his own supposed voter base. Never has the left so hated the people they're meant to defend."
"Duffy is not a bigot. She just said something which may have been interpreted as bigoted. She deserves the benefit of the doubt. Brown is an idiot for smarming someone in public and calling them a name in private. In my opinion he made a good apology though, all we need to know now is if Duffy concurs.
The author of this article should be grateful that the Duffy/Brown spat has brought her own feelings out in the open. She writes well, and with passion, but neither Duffy nor Brown are responsible for her inability to speak out to date.
Her final point, that we should all try to educate ourselves about the feelings of others, is sound advice that should not be lightly ignored. A useful lesson for us all."
I have also lived in another European country - Germany. I have also lived through an election there where I didn't have a voice. I have also experienced discrimination there, for example from officials who deliberately spoke Bavarian dialect to me knowing that I wouldn't understand it. However, I didn't hold that against the whole of the German people, the vast majority of whom were incredibly friendly and helpful to me. If we move to another country, we have to accept that these things happen. It is wrong and silly to generalise from one incident to a whole nation. My advice to Ms. Popova is to remind herself of the fact that she has stayed in this country for 10 years out of choice, so it can't be as bad as she appears to paint it.
"Its time for the liberal intelligensia to sever their ties with the distatsteful poor people with their odious views who have propped them in power for so long.
don't worry about not getting any votes any more, you can just join quangos and stuff."
"As a black woman, having just returned from an 'Eastern European' country, I've pretty much had my fill of bigots, of late.
There's nothing to disagree with in this article but I still read it thinking that maybe the experience of many other immigrants have been forgotten. The ones whose skin colour add to their demonisation. I'm not playing 'who's the most oppressed' here but let's have a more expansive discussion please about immigration and racism!"
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"I'm not entirely sure how you're disenfranchised, Milena.
For a start, you write for the Guardian. (Yes, I know a column on CiF is the journalistic equivalent of being an extra in The Bill, but even so...)
According to your profile, you've been in the UK for ten years, so you could have applied for citizenship at any time.
And, like most Guardies, you earn enough to pay high-rate tax.
Your profile says that most days, you 'self-identify' as European.
Is this one of those days?"
"Pathetic piece.
She asked a legitimate question.
McBroon did not answer it properly.
Then sulked offf to his car.
And then slagged her off
Very brave poltics !!"
Whilst i would never question your right to live and work here, you do actually have another choice Milena, and that choice is to return to the country of your birth, pay your taxes there, and live your life free from immigration issues, cos i bet theres not hundreds of thousands of immigrants back home eh.
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"How about getting off twitter and getting into the real world?
Then you'll meet normal, real people who don't all share the same opinion.
I don't agree with Mrs Duffy either. But I had this conversation in a pub surrouded by friends and colleagues (and two eastern europeans) and it was fascinating. Trouble is, you don't get many new eastern european immigrants on twitter.
'Oooh I tweeted something and no one answered me!'
Do you know how sad, lonely and pathetic that makes you sound? Opinion isn't only found online - I know its hard to contemplate, but there's a huge fucking world out there, go and investigate it.
I don't think I've ever seen someone looking to twitter for personal validation before. Is this the future?"
"Way to avoid the point I was making, RudiGunn. I'll try again.
Does Ms Popova have the ""right"" to express her opinion, no matter how ""snidey and patronising""* you, or AllyF, or the other fair-weather champions of ""free speech"" on CiF may find it?
If the answer is yes, then please withdraw your earlier remark. If the answer is no, then please refrain from complaining in the future about any real or imagined attempts to ""censor"" or ""stifle"" your own ""snidey and patronising"" comments.
_AT_HappHazzard
Who mentioned ""middle-class, educated professionals""? Not me. Your quote marks are redundant at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.
There are plenty of skilled manual jobs and ways to stand out in the labour market that do not require becoming a lawyer. There used to be a whole stratum of the working class who were proud of their skills. They were sacrificed on the Tory/New Labour altar of ""flexibility"" and the ""service economy.""
Anyone who supported this gutting of our skills base in the 1980s and 1990s has no leg to stand on now - and certainly no basis for claiming some faux-solidarity with the workers.
It's been the devil-take-the-hindmost, free-market mantra for decades in the UK that it is up to individuals to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and improve their lot, without expecting the ""nanny state"" to pick up the pieces, has it not?
So how come every last reactionary on CiF suddenly transforms into Keir bloody Hardie the minute an opportunity to sneer at immigrants arises?

Careful - you're starting to sound like the socialist that I actually am and you most certainly are not (your posting history does not exactly read like the Greatest Hits of Tony Benn; you seem obsessed with one thing and one thing only: immigration).

It's not that you don't have a point there; it's just that I don't believe for a minute that you would support this viewpoint if foreigners were not involved.

Again, I agree with the point. But I deeply distrust the person who is making it (that pesky posting history again, eh?!). When you and yours start championing the workers over the rich in our society regardless of immigrants and immigration, then I will stand with you.
For a first step, try accepting that immigrants don't lower wages; bosses do. Try accepting that if government ""should"" use its State power to ""stop immigration"", why is this less heavy-handed than using its power to stop bosses taking all the pie and screwing everyone's wages and conditions?
You see, you believe in divide and rule (although you don't know it), whereas socialists believe in workers' solidarity - whether they are East European or not."
"It is a terrible judgement on our society that Mrs Duffy didn't sound so bigoted because we are used to hearing far worse.
It is about time we learnt to celebrate the unique and disproportionately large positive contribution all immigrants make to all societies they travel to."
My father came over to Engalnd from Ireland in 1953, and we were brought up hearing about the "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish" signs he endured. Mrs Duffy was asking about immigration from Eastern Europe in the context of benefits, the general sub-text of immigration concerns being "They're taking all our jobs" or "They're all claiming benefits and jumping to the top of the housing list" I don't think you over-reacted. And Mrs Duffy was a bigot.
"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
"It's unfortunate that the power of the media in this country is such that Gordon was essentially forced to apologise for speaking the truth, in a private conversation.
This is an inevitable consequence of allowing the BNP to mainstream themselves. Being openly bigoted is no longer deemed reprehensible.
I completely agree. She IS a bigot. But then I would say that, what with being brown and all."
"RudiGunn

Yikes. What're you really angry about?
Sir, flocking is something birds do. Economic migration is something people do. Hardworking people who want a better life, who pay taxes and contribute to the economy.

Older people will always see their world transform. That's because...time passes. You imply that immigrants to this country are damaging it. In what way? By doing jobs and paying council tax?
Or by polluting...our precious...bodily fluids...?"
"so to summarise your piece...
'i am amazing, i moved here, there nothing you can do about it and i dont care if you dont like it so how dare you ask the the PM of your country a question'
Aside from your tone and victim mentatlity, i kind of agree with you. She is from a different generation, one where people moving out of the familiy village was rare. I do not know (or even care) where you are from, but i am sure there are plently of villiages and towns in your home statey where if all of a sudden 100,000's of immigrants, with a different langauge arrived there would be some older people who might be a little taken a back."
"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
"I too work abroad (germany/switzerland). I too don't have a vote for my taxes. I too get to listen to stay-at-homes moan about the bloody foreigners. Some of them are bigots, most are simply sold a line by media and politicians who want their vote. And because I don't have a vote, the politicians ignore me.
One day, soon enough now, Poland will probably have lots of economic migrants too. And believe me, they'll do it too, just like some irish did.
It isn't unusual, it's part of the territory of being an economic migrant. And there are plenty of benefits to be had too.
There: I've empathised. Now will you puh-lease stop the psychobabble about ""gaining leverage""?
But I agree about not having a vote bringing all sorts of political imbalances with it."
"rickatgosport

By which I guess you mean the descendants of the massive waves of axe-wielding, bloodthirsty Angle, Saxon & Jute immigrants of the 4th-6th centuries?"
"Apparently political correctness gets completely skewed when talking about immigration. I'm glad Brown had that reaction, I just wish he didn't pander to the bloody media.
If only there were stats showing the number of Brits living off the state compared with immigrants/minorities."
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"sodabicarb
29 Apr 2010, 1:30PM


Well said - I don't like the way people feel they can freely slag off the Eastern Europeans in a way they wouldn't dare to do with other sections of the immigrant community - perhaps because it can fly under the racist radar. It's scapegoating and it says a lot about Gordon Brown that his kneejerk reaction was as strong as if she'd been openly racist (I'm not a fan of the man but I think his vilification has been quite wrong)
Milena - good article, I enjoyed reading it:-)"
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oops lol - dunno what happened there!
"You're right. She was out of order, and bigoted is a fair choice of word to describe her.
I wonder if Gordon's failing is that he made this comment behind her back. Our political figurehead should surely rush to the defence of you and people like you when faced with bigotry of that kind, even there is an election on."
"Sorry, but I just don't feel Mrs Duffy's comments were all that bigoted. Not the best choice of words commenting on eastern Europeans, but she is just a reflection of working class Britain being concerned about their jobs.
The issue to me is not who or where immigrants come from, it's that simply anyone migrating to another country should have a positive contribution to make to that country (if it's not for asylum purposes), and should not be abused by employers to provide cheaper labour undermining the local workforce and paying the migrant workers less than their value.
There's nothing bigoted about that, and really that is what she meant. Local jobs are under threat through immigration and she had a justified concern and a right to express her opinion.
Gordon Brown had the opportunity here to make a positive response about immigration, perhaps saying how he understands her concerns and how Labour are going to deal with the undervaluing side of immigrants, perhaps expressing the points system he has already proposed. Instead he chose to publicly dismiss her concerns by telling her how many British citizens migrate abroad which justifies the migrants into the country, and then slate her behind her back for being a bigot. I wouldn't ever vote Labour myself, but Tony would have had a positive answer for her!
Personally I see a simple solution. Welcome people to the country on a points system where they can show they have a positive contribution to make, and complement that by enforcing a higher minimum wage for migrants into the country than local citizens.
That way local businesses will not abuse them by choosing cheap migrant labour over the local work force. Instead valued migrants can come into the country to earn a decent wage based on their skills and not the fact they are cheap.
However there also needs to be a crackdown on those who are working here under the minimum wage and those who are working cash in hand avoiding the tax system and the employment radar. It's not their fault however, it is the British employers who abuse this situation."
I can't get over how the UK, which let East Europeans in, gets all this endless flack and reproach, while the French, Germans, and the rest, who _still_ haven't let them in, get let off scott free. Why is this? Where is your rage at the French and Germans? Why are they given a free pass?
"If Gillian Duffy is a bigot, what does that make Nick Griffin?
It's damning that Gordon Brown has done nothing to explain the benefits of immigration, and few speak up for the ""flocking Eastern Europeans"" who have enriched our country.
But the rush by many to condemn a woman who's bemused at dramatic changes to her home town seems to prove how far ""London"" politics has drifted away from much of the rest of (specifically) England.
Which will only offer more opportunities for evil bastards like the BNP to spread their poison. John Harris had it spot on yesterday.
Those who are condemning Duffy are no better than those they seek to criticise - you're meant to be tolerant and liberal, yeah?"
"Sanctimony - Check
Patronising delivery - Check
Missing the point entirely - Check.
Congratulations Milena.
You're well on the way to becoming a Guardian staff writer."
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"Milena
Some English people have this prejudice that foreigners are ""over-excitable"" and E. Europeans ""over-emotional"". I fear you are confirming it.
By the standards of bigotry, this not very well-informed woman said nothing really seriously nasty about E. Europeans.
And count your blessings. Back in good old E. Europe (here, for example), it is hard to imagine our political leaders getting caught saying ""bigot"", about some old babicka who asked ""What about all them Ukrainians/Vietnamese coming here taking our jobs, parasiting, causing crime??? What about all them dirty gypsies?"" They wouldn't get caught saying ""bigot"" because they wouldn't say ""bigot""...if anything they would say, ""what a nice old baba!"" And if some bright young progressive thing asked, ""what are you going to do about racism and xenophobia in this country?"", they would likely be caught saying, ""God, keep me away from poncy stuck-up kids! Looked like a queer to me!"""
"No. It wasn't.
And claiming that it was, claiming that what she said was in some way 'bigoted', is to spit in the face of all those people (black, white, yellow...) who have experienced real racism and discrimination."
"Glad you took the time to write this. The intolerance and ignorance in this country may be no better than anywhere else, but the way we kowtow to it, and let knee jerk reactions drive critical debate, seems to be something we're especially good at. He called her a bigot, she is a bigot, so what's the problem? A bigot is someone who bases what they think on opinion, not evidence. There is no evidence that immigration is causing unemployment, for example. That people believe this is because they believe whatever the papers (and other media channels) want them to believe - and because fear is a great way to sell newspapers.
I have a gut feeling that the the media's power is waning, as people start to pay more attention to what's happening in social groups online instead of whatever headline the tabloids are raving about. Here's hoping that's more than just a feeling, and that May 6th will bring a well needed kick up the backside to those who think they can tell us what to think."
Milena - if it helps, count one more Brit who's more than happy for you to be here.
"I'm with you on this. Gordo was right! She is a little englander bigot! I would have called her a lot worse including some anglo-saxon words not commonly printed in this paper! The grumpy auld goat!
I loved her question to Gordo: ""Where are all these Eastern Europeans flocking from then?"" In his position I would have been so tempted to answer ""Eastern Europe, duh!""
The whole thing is a fuss about nothing being whipped up by the tories and the tory press. It's a shame. This election was just beginning to look interesting."
Well, Wardinator--how would you like to do the kind of jobs that 'feckless, lazy brits' think are beneath them? My guess is that you are a middle-class person who has had access to good jobs and has never had to face up long term to the kind of boring, backbreaking, routine, soul-destroying badly paid jobs that the immigrants do? Please note: no criticism of the immigrants, just some empathy for lower-class brits.
"""Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sob""s.
Calm down dear....
Methinks you protest too much."
"Truly pathetic piece. How dare this woman libel Mrs Duffy as bigoted. Guardian - you are sinking to new lows. Tears! Come on. 95% of what Mrs Duffy said was about debt, the debt, the debt and about tuition fees. She then quite rightly questioned immigration. Does anyone know whether immigration costs the exchequer or not? No, of course not, it is not measured in any way at all!
Immigration in the UK is an issue because it drives down wages for working people - just not Guardian columnists - and alters the culture of the country.
And i speak as the child of immigrants. Ms Popova you could always do what they did and naturalise, then you would also have the vote..."
"Still the smearig continues. A concerned long time labour voter voices her concerns and says nothing bigoted and look at the reaction from the 'progressives'. Disgraceful.
Don't vote Labour ever again!"
"Perhaps Mrs Duffy doesn't realise that 10% of the pilots that fought the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain were Polish. So apparently they've been ""flocking"" here for years and causing all sorts of trouble like seeing off the Nazis. How very selfish of them.
Milena, I have no idea what it is like to be an immigrant living here but I do think it is a shame this woman's views upset you so much. However, we all have to put up with the unpleasant prejudices of morons it's just that they discriminate against me in different ways to you. I'm sure even Mrs Duffy experiences prejudice from others. The world isn't perfect and lots of people are mean-spirited - sad but true."
I totally agree with you- I only wish Gordon had said this to her face not in the car. This reveals a press feeding on the subconscious fears of the British public. How many times in my life have I heard friends, work collegues, neigbours say I am not a racist but.... instead of just being honest and saying I am afraid of people who look different, have a different language, culture I find it threatening I don't feel I can cope..If british people dont want Polish people taking their jobs why do british people employ them..The ony sickening thing about this incident is the media politicians and the British people's inability to have a grown up debate about this. I am half Irish and half Indian but actually all I am is English I was born here. But I cant identify with people who for years have rejected me . But I love the English language and the countryside and the eccenticity of English people -most of all I love Engand 's regard for free speech and surely no one should have to apologise for that . The only mistake Gordon made was not saying it to her face.
"I am glad you have written this.
It took a while before I heard the actual dialogue but it didn't strike me as being one that was venemous and xenophobic in comparison to some others I have heard.
I suppose I am used to hearing much more low-brow, thinly-veiled racism and so GD's questions didn't strike me as being overtly offensive - I am not saying that is a bad thing, but I was expecting to hear her railing on and throwing in some dated terms for good measure considering the media hype. That said, I thought GB was very tactless from a PR standpoint.
I am ashamed that I didn't react as you did immediately because I feel very strongly towards integration and looking at immigration constructively. Remember, though, that GD is just one woman and she is entitled to feel as she feels - it isn't her running for an election after all. It is pathetic how the media have splashed this story about because it distracts from the entire process which will thankfully be drawing to a close next week."
I totally agree with you- I only wish Gordon had said this to her face not in the car. This reveals a press feeding on the subconscious fears of the British public. How many times in my life have I heard friends, work collegues, neigbours say I am not a racist but.... instead of just being honest and saying I am afraid of people who look different, have a different language, culture I find it threatening I don't feel I can cope..If british people dont want Polish people taking their jobs why do british people employ them..The ony sickening thing about this incident is the media politicians and the British people's inability to have a grown up debate about this. I am half Irish and half Indian but actually all I am is English I was born here. But I cant identify with people who for years have rejected me . But I love the English language and the countryside and the eccenticity of English people -most of all I love Engand 's regard for free speech and surely no one should have to apologise for that . The only mistake Gordon made was not saying it to her face.
"_AT_kolf
""That'll be the descendants of the massive waves of Angle, Saxon & Jute immigration in the 4th-6th centuries, then?""
No indigenous would mean people who are born here and there are many who hold legitimite veiws on the disaster mass immigration has caused to our communities."
"Well said Milena, It's always easier to blame others for problems rather than look at them objectively. I wonder if they ever think about the numbers of britons that emigrate to other countries.
I think that encouraging movement of peoples improves nations."
"I found this such a depressing article, but for tangental reasons.
You waited for your mates to Tweet you back? Or for your ""60 or so LiveJournal friends"" to get in touch?
But ultimately you were left with ""a profound sense of isolation"".
Yup."
Thanks wez222, that's an absolute classic !
"Well said Milena, It's always easier to blame others for problems rather than look at them objectively. I wonder if they ever think about the numbers of britons that emigrate to other countries.
I think that encouraging movement of peoples improves nations"
Well written Milena. the UK needs immigrants like it needs foreign debt . It's all part of the business model of UK plc.
* I meant to say 'good thing' not bad thing. Oh dear...
"_AT_farga
""they work hard and are generally well behaved"" thats very condescending and possibly a little bigoted, a bit like Cameron's ""I was talking to a black man the other day"" comments like this infer that anyone ""foreign"" is not civilised abit like saying they are quite well behaved, for a foreigner because you know that normally eat horses and stuff... Cameron's comments suggested that all Black people must be immigrants and Duffy's remarks suggest that all Eastern Europeans are bracketed in with illegal immigrants, which is a different think.
I agree with a lot of posters here that sadly there are alot of people who share Mrs Duffy's ""views"" they have this idea of ""foreigners"" flocking into the country when they do not really no what they are talking about and have never probably been in contact with an immigrant in their little closed lives.
Thanks Milena for writing this as it is what I was thinking all yesterday and I would have liked to have seen Brown turn round and say, well her views were bigoted but maybe I should have kept these thoughts to myself and I would have liked to see Mrs Duffy apologise for being ignorant, though this would probably have taken a level of intellect that she does not possess. I am also sorry Milena that you feel this way and please do not think all UK voters are Daily Express reading idiots."
What some people fail to grasp is that the intelligent/educated people in the right wing press and parties will use fear of immigration to gain power and then they will be free to start sending people abroad because they are not white, repealling equality laws, making homosexulaity illegal again so when you think this is simply about immigration you are wrong. Immigrants are simply No.1 on the right wing agenda, who or what is next? So when Mrs Duffy expresses her "views" on immigration, she can be latched on by the right wing as a poor victim of all the minorities who have rights here, and they will be whipped into a frenzy and this will increase racist attacks, increase racia tension and civil disorder, so we have every right to be worried that views like hers are being fed and used to spread fear.
Steady on, we're not all like her.
"_AT_hankwilliams
Citing musicians and their cultural backgrounds is very fertile ground in favour of immigration. I grew up listening to music when reggae and two tone were popular and having a major influence on the music scene - when a British band was often a racial mix that produced a dynamic cross-cultural music as a result.
I'm proud of that. Thats my heritage. A mix that made beauty."
"_AT_Milena Popova

Wait 'til you've read most of the comments on here. There'll be floods."
I completely empathise with where you're coming from, and completely agree about the contributions immigrants make to our society, with very little by way of thanks or appreciation. And while I would never use language like Mrs Duffy did to describe 'flocking' immigrants, I don't think it's helpful to call people like her bigots, because it neglects to address the problem of where views like hers stem from. Unfortunately when people feel that they personally or their community has been given a rough deal in life, it tends to be their first instinct to blame outsiders whom they perceive as a threat to their entitlements. But people need to be educated, badly, on this topic and learn to understand that blaming immigration for their woes is utterly pointless. Politicians, meanwhile, whipped up into their own frenzy by the newspapers, are happy to play that blame game because they know who really should be in the firing line for the state of neglected communities across the UK - themselves.
"PS Milena
What is disenfranchised and powerless about you?
I'm the bloody disenfranchised one! As a Brit long-term resident of another country I am not eligible to vote in British elections. But I know of no E. European country inside or outside the EU that disenfranchises its expats in this way...
As for local elections, if you are from an EU country (or I believe have Brit residence status), you can vote in these..
You are young, highly educated and above all earning in a top tax band - you are probably in almost every way more powerful than this ""bigot"" lady...
So chill out. Have a vodka or a becherovka or a slivovic and stop being a cry baby."
Last time, I checked Gillian Duffy was not standing for election as a major party's candidate for prime minister.
As a fellow immigrant, I understand your anger, but can I make a plea for understanding for this elderly person and others like her? I have spoken with many older Brits who feel alienated from the place where they were born, went to school, grew up, worked, married and raised children in by the speed of social and cultural changes that have overtaken them and their community. Their utterances may seem like bigotry, but they reflect their fear of a society which they no longer fully understand or feel a part of. Rushing to judgement of this women without attempting to understand her does you no credit.
We're not all bigots - you'll be pleased to hear. I totally support immigration as do all right-thinking people. I don't understand why we have to keep having a debate about it just because a very vocal part of the UK is distrustful of foreigners. For some reason we have to be liberal apologists when what we should say is - people come here to live and work and make a contribution to society and there is nothing wrong with that.
"Yet another middle class bigot, doe's the guardian breed them, or just dig them up from their allotments of cranks, oddballs and loons. The simple face it Mrs Duffy has every right to be concerned about immigration and it?s not bigoted to raise these issues.
It's no reason the working classes are voting for the BNP.
Of cource this article and El Gordo's behaviour is another reason to Vote Tory.
which i will be doing."
"I certainly didn't support the ""gutting of our skills base in the 80s and 90s. I'm mistified as to why you would claim that I did.
.

Why would a socialist believe in mass immgration when it completely destroys the bargaining power of the working-class of any country to negotiate for fair wages and working conditions?

Who is ""you and yours""? If you've been looking at my post history, look again. I will always champion British workers over the rich, on every occasion. Which is more than can be said for any LibLabCon voter.

I believe in controlled capitalism, not Communism. The governments role is to create an environment where businesses can flourish but must pay fair wages that people can afford to live on. Allowing mass immigration is contrary to this, British people cannot afford to live on wages that Eastern Europeans might find reasonable.

I am not a socialist. I do not believe in divide and rule. I have not, and will never, say anything negative about any group of immigrants that want to come here and work. Saying that they should not be allowed to come here *IS NOT SAYING NEGATIVE ABOUT THEM*. I wish them all the luck in the world. I would do exactly the same in their situation. Show me a country where I can go and work in a supermarket or factory for £800-£1000 a week and save for a few years and I would jump at the chance to go, as would many British people."
"I sympathise with you Mileana, but you'll find most of the UK will welcome you where ever you come from, we are quite a tolerant country.
However the majority of the British are very concerned about jobs, alot of young people can't get jobs and if they do get jobs that they can barley scrape a living off of them.
Alot of Eastern Europeans came across a few years ago because exchanging the Pound for an Eastern European currency went along way. I know of many Eastern Europeans who worked for 2 years in the UK in really tough jobs whilst living in communal houses. Alot of the money saved was sent back home. I have heard of many retiring early or being able to buy a house back in their own country.
A person in the UK working in those jobs can't buy ahouse here let alone a house. The lady who raised this issue was only voicing this concern."
On the news recently an old man, clearly of West Indian origin, but a long term resident of Wolverhampton, was complaining about the racism of Eastern Europeans to visibly ethnic UK citizens. It seems that he who is without sin should be asked to cast the first stone here.
"Buy a train ticket to Manchester and then hop on the bus to Rochdale and spend a week there talking to the local residents.
Then write another opinion piece.
You are paying more in than taking out, well bully for you. That may well change by the time you reach the age of 66. One serious illness and you'll quickly be overdrawn.
I don't think the treasury keeps a ledger but you could give them a call or read the national accounts. Last time I looked the country was bust and most people were taking out more than they were putting in, just think of that when you visit the opera, the symphony, or dance ,or art gallery or museum.
Most countries have citizenship as a qualification to vote."
"I am the friend who twittered """"I don't believe what Gordon Brown says either. I am therefore also a #bigotedwoman by his standards. Good!"". When I made that tweet I had only seen the 'end' part of the meeting between her and Brown (nothing about immigration) and it appeared that Brown's outburst was over her simply disagreeing with him.
Saying that though, I'm not sure I believe she was 'bigoted' anyway. She wasn't antagonistic in any way in asking a question to which no party has properly answered (I'm ignoring the BNP of course) and is - quite clearly - something a substantial number of Labour voters have concerns about. Unlike others on her estate interviewed subsequently she wasn't that rabid no - it appeared from what I could see (ymmv) - was she being 'anti' european, more querying that it appears uncontrolled. I didn't hear a ""flocking"" comment, though that word is clearly interpreted by the beholder.
Brown then blamed his own timetable for 'lack of time', then a member of staff, and then went on a mea culpa trip. All the quotes that ""he is only human"" have been repeated so often one starts to think there may have been some question about it. That he held an opinion in private directly opposite to that he openly stated unprompted moments before is, however, reprehensible.
I am very strongly against *any* attempt to ostracise *anyone* who has come - legally - to this country. I welcome them with open arms and - personally - would be fairly happy with an 'open door' policy (like water, population finds its own levels in a given area). But it didn't hit me from what I saw of that initial meeting between Ms Duffy and Mr Brown that there was anything more than a simple polite query.
That you were upset by my tweet it I am very sorry."
Thank you for a fantastic piece. We should all be ashamed of the situation that bigotgate has highlighted. I hope Gordon has the guts to stand for what he said.
""" I'm also writing this because you need to know. Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the huge sense of entitlement. ""
Personally, I find the anti-immigration hysteria distasteful and a few short steps removed from racism - basically, I think a lot of people hide behind the anti-immigration debate (and anti-multiculturalism debate) when really they mean something nastier. This is the success of the BNP and the right wing agenda (witness the Daily Mail every day).
It's not that long ago people were telling us Asians to ""go home"" even when we were born here. Now they might be clever with their words but scratch beneath the surface and you can soon suss out where people are coming from.
So yesterday I thought if Brown really thought she was a bigot he should have challenged her and stuck to his guns - maybe he would have gotten support by showing how ""progressive"" he really is, because I thought there was a hint of bigotry in what she was saying - but by going back to apologise, he just made himself look like a coward, hypocrite and total chancer."
"_AT_AllyF
29 Apr 2010, 1:17PM
absolutely brilliant post.
x"
Hmm, thank goodness you're not Muslim . If you'd been a family of them having paid into the system and been a valuable contributor for years and been watching the BNP party political broadcast 2 days ago i think you'd have felt much much worse.
Why is it bigoted to question the numbers of people from eastern European countries? Unlike many former communist countries, Britain has free speech. It is a bit precious to cry because someone raised an issue that most British people rate as the second most important, after the economy. And the reality is that not all East European immigrants are as diligent and hard working as the Poles. What about the Slovak Roma? Or are we not allowed to discuss that either, in case we make some people cry?
"Actually I think the trigger happy mods on this site should remove posts that clearly demonstrate that the writer has no concept of the debate whatsoever. I mean, none.
This woman has come here of her own free will, chosen to stay and is making a good living in our country. She has declined to make any commitment to it or show any loyalty to it.
She has the bloody cheek to come on here and lecture us about being bigots, when her own countrymen, (who still have her loyalty,) are the genuine article.
She can stick her noxious comment, and for the first time in my life I find myself saying if she doesnt like it why doesnt she bugger off home."
"This is such trash.
This event was a non-event that deserves no mention from either """"""side""""""."
"Milena
Several things:
1. you need to grow a spine
2. I favour immigration, particularly within the ambit of the EU as the exchange is that I can live anywhere in Europe I chose. However I can understand that many people would prefer if immigration is controlled and I can accept that they are entitled to a different view point. Mrs Duffy was expressing that different view point. You have no right to condemn her or call her a bigot for holding that opinion. What she said indicated concern about numbers as opposed to the identity of the immigrants. Presumably you too might object if say 2 million people suddenly turned up tomorrow seeking entry into the UK. If so then it is simply a question of degree as to how much immigration is a good thing and at what point it can become a problem.
3. At no point did she say anything negative about Eastern Europeans. She said that they are flocking. That simply denotes numbers and it is true that over the last few years there has been a lot of immigration from Eastern Europe. However again there is nothing negative said about Eastern Europeans in that. How anyone can suggest that there is anything negative in the word flocking is beyond me - it is simply descriptive i.e. birds flock in large numbers. That does not suggest that one dislikes birds.
4. Mrs Duffy is 65. Stereotypically, older people tend to a little less open to change than younger people. This is part of what it is to be human. So instead of insulting someone by calling them a bigot (a far worse insult than suggesting someone is part of a flock), try to have a little understanding yourself. Otherwise you will simply find people condemning you in turn"
"I have when I lived in the UK, it was my wife. She had to listen to the right-on brigade bang on about Americans (she's Polish-American) all the time as if they were some homogeneous Bush supporting, gun-toting, god-bothering, Iraq war supporting, hive mind.
Guess what, she shrugged it off and put people right when they came out with some sort of ill-informed crap (which the Guardian comments section seems to be full of on anything to do with the US).
Of course she doesn't think everyone who comes out with these comments are bigots, but rather ill-informed. You can blame that on the press, talking heads and politicians. Is Duffy a bigot, no. Is she ill-informed, yes."
"How dare you.
Mrs Duffy was raising a perfectly valid point about immigration levels depressing local wages and putting strain on public services. She is entitled to ask anything she wants, and she did so in a perfectly non-bigoted way.
Believe it or not, immigration policy is a public policy issue like any other, and it is perfectly legitimate for a voter to ask about it.
How can you call that person a bigot? She was absolutely mortified, not angry, when the reporters told her what Brown had called her. I really felt for her. She didn't deserve that."
""" I'm also writing this because you need to know. Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the huge sense of entitlement. ""
Personally, I find the anti-immigration hysteria distasteful and a few short steps removed from racism - basically, I think a lot of people hide behind the anti-immigration debate (and anti-multiculturalism debate) when really they mean something nastier. This is the success of the BNP and the right wing agenda (witness the Daily Mail every day).
It's not that long ago people were telling us Asians to ""go home"" even when we were born here. Now they might be clever with their words but scratch beneath the surface and you can soon suss out where people are coming from.
So yesterday I thought if Brown really thought she was a bigot he should have challenged her and stuck to his guns - maybe he would have gotten support by showing how ""progressive"" he really is, because I thought there was a hint of bigotry in what she was saying - but by going back to apologise, he just made himself look like a coward, hypocrite and total chancer."
"I think you miss the point. For better or worse, imigration is, after the economy, the biggest issue of concern to voters (as a whole).
The concern about east europeans ""coming over here and taking our jobs"" is very real to people who themselves live in deprived, largly unemployed areas, with lots of east european/other areas immigrants which coupled with a high (higher than proportional?) proportion of immigrants doing low paid work (shops, cafes, hospitality etc etc) it's easy to see why it is of concern.
However, the blame for this has to go to the parties (all of them) who for years have failed to tackle the issue head on for fear of being called, yes, bigoted. If any one of the main parties came up with a coherant immigration policy they'd take the BNP vote at a stroke. The parties continually duck the issue leaving the electorate to take their lead from Daily Mail scare stories about muslims with 5 wives and 18 children living on benefits etc and so on."
"Gordon Brown's comment almost made me want to vote for him next week.
I am an economic migrant, as is my husband. Last Friday I had to field a frankly racist rant from my neighbour, not against me she said, but against the Bangladeshi community who have changed her former home in Bethnal Green out of all recognition (she says). She hasn't lived ther for more than 40 years so I don't think she has a right to complain.
She couldn't accept that an insult to any immigrant is an insult to all immigrants, including her Irish Grandmother. What left an even worse taste in my mouth was how she tried to say that we were different, by implication because we are white west europeans. The whole discussion left me deeply upset.
My dentist is polish, she is fantastic. The best assistant I ever had was also east european. All these people who say immigrants come into this country and get council housing ahead of residents, I'd like to see their evidence in support of this. In my experience they are often highly skilled and hardworking, and paying taxes to support the layabouts who would have us chucked out.
In my opinion Gordon should have stuck to his guns and not apologised. But then he can't do that can he, he's a politician."
Perhaps this blog post is a bit emotional, but that's because it was written by a human. Gordon Brown's comment was also human. If I'd heard that lady saying those things, I would have assumed she was prejudiced too, and I would have tried to talk to her calmly as well, because that's the kind of polite midwestern American I am. As everyone keeps saying, she can say how she feels if on camera if she wants to. Why can't Brown mumble how he fells in his own car? I now like Gordon Brown more than I did before. However, I am seriously annoyed at the BBC for talking about it ALL DAY. It reminds me of sh*t-stirring in the school yard.
"The Aussie mafia ....bugged ..GORDON
THEY DONE IM UP LIKE A KIPPER SKY ARSE LICKS"
Leaving aside the issue of whether Eastern European immigrants are "flocking" here or not, it's grossly unfair to label someone a bigot on the basis of what was a few words said to Gordon Brown when the spotlight was on both of them. I don't know if Gillian Duffy is a bigot or not because I don't know her nor have her views been fully explained. It seems a whole media storm is being created so people like Milena Popeva can then have a right to reply to what was basically an unqualified remark by someone who maybe didn't have the words to express what she really felt.
"Milena
You are right - this woman does hold bigoted views. So does Gordon Brown. Thatos not mean that there are not genuine groundsfor a debate on the effects on immgration - shools, housing etc as well as the cltural and economic benefits.
Having said that the UK still remains one of thebest countres of any in the EU for immigrants."
"Oh dear.
I don't want to gainsay Milena Popova 's horrible experience of being on the receiving end of prejudice in the UK, but this is a terrible article: emotive and censorious.
As others have pointed out above above, especially Ally F, the way forward is not to confront an elderly lady concerned and disorientated by an influx of incomers into her struggling northern town.
Nor to batter her into submission with post-modern twaddle about deconstructing the supposedly dehumanising subtext of a word she used.
And least of all to insist that she be publicly named and shamed as a bigot!
More and more I find myself wondering how and why so many on the progressive left have taken a turn into the very intolerance they claim to oppose.
If any good comes of this sorry incident we'll see a boost for the Lib Dems, who appear to have the only honest and decent line on immigration."
Hmmm,just as well you're not a Muslim . Imagine if you're a family thats paid into the system for the last 40 years and been a valuable contribution for years and had been watching the BNP party political broadcast 2 days ago ,I reckon you'd have felt much worse .
"thank you Downtroddenhero.
I wonder how many higher rate taxpayer Guardianistas employ foreign labour as nannies, cleaners, or indirectly in Starbucks. Have they ever stopped to think what this means for UK labour? How much more would they pay if labour was more constrained?
Well, that pay constraint is what the working class in this country has been feeling, so that the champagne socialists of Hampstead and Highgate can pontificate in comfort.
Has noone seen the figures? More than 90% of jobs created under labour have gone to foreigners.
These are facts, not bigotry."
"thank you Downtroddenhero.
I wonder how many higher rate taxpayer Guardianistas employ foreign labour as nannies, cleaners, or indirectly in Starbucks. Have they ever stopped to think what this means for UK labour? How much more would they pay if labour was more constrained?
Well, that pay constraint is what the working class in this country has been feeling, so that the champagne socialists of Hampstead and Highgate can pontificate in comfort.
Has noone seen the figures? More than 90% of jobs created under labour have gone to foreigners.
These are facts, not bigotry."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"""This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot? ""
For goodness sakes, it was one remark in a lengthy exchange which ranged widely over a number of important issues. If she had been bigotted against East Europeans then that is all she would have talked about. Brown over-reacted and now you are too."
"piffedoff

You have no idea what you are talking about, but carry on with the assumptions.
I'm from a single-parent working-class family. At a time when it wasn't typical, so as well as having no money I also got bullied for having no Dad. My Mother had at least 2 jobs while I was growing up to make ends meet, and that taught me that it was better to have a job rather than no job.
I'm the first person in my family to have gained any qualifications above the age of 16 and I have worked 'menial' jobs (cleaning, minimum wage shop work and similar) since I was 14 in order to pay my way at home, and also through sixth form and university. So now, yes, I am sat in my nice job with decent wages and conditions, but I worked fucking hard to get here, so I don't need someone like you assuming I was born into this and come from some position of luxury
I have a shed load of empathy for the 'lower class Brits' because most of my family are still down there, but they at least try and get off their arses and take any job that is available. My point, which you handily chose to ignore, was that there are some feckless, lazy Brits who would rather have no job than a menial one."
"GORDON WILL BE THE LAST MAN STANDING THE ONLY MAN
VOTE LABOUR"
I'd just like to offer my support. The comments were bigoted and Gordon Brown was right to say so. I have lived and worked in a foreign country (Spain) for over 20 years, and I have always been treated with the utmost respect. If we do not show the same respect to people who come to live and work in the UK, we are not living up to the values our country should represent.
"I support you, understand your feelings and share your outrage.
having been an immigrant in other countries for nearly 20 years I believe there are also huge positives to your experience that no amount of bigotry will undo. Immigration is a condition of modernity; millions share your experience. You are challenging yourself, learning and keeping a critical eye on everything around you. If you have children they will be more creative and adaptable than their monolingual friends in this country; you will be equipping them for a global future. You have not lost your family and friends as immigrants in earlier generations did.
Britain benefits from your presence, but so do you. In the other countries I have lived there is also hostility to outsiders - yes, there is a hierarchy of hostility according to colour, place of origin and educational achievement - but it is there all the same. Many eastern Europeans I have spoken to in other parts of Europe display their own forms of racism. The further out you go from metropolitan centres in most countries I have lived in, the more racism there is.
So do think of all the good, both for Britain and yourself, that is coming out of what you are doing. Britain is he better, and richer, place for your presence."
Christ How can Gillian Duffy be 'bigoted' against Eastern Europeans if she was going to vote for a man called Danczuk? I emphasise 'was'
She was a horrible old bigot. Mine and my friends' Facebook statuses are awash with statements to this effect, and have been since last night. Gillian, thank you for writing this, and please be assured that lots of British citizens find her comments completely unacceptable. You have my sympathy for the way it made you feel.
"I agree with you Milena. As some of the comments here show, racism and intolerance are very much in vogue, with the sentiment (if not the verbatim words) of ""I'm not a racist but...."" the preface to almost every racist comment.
The form of many of the comments above (apparently unaware of the irony) is to rubbish the very idea of any bigotry in Act I and then in Act II gloriously end the post by enumerating the sins of ""them"", in this case the Poles and other Eastern Europeans.
Such sins may be catalogued with reference to (a) a single incident whereby a bad Pole is obviously representative of the entire race. (b) The type of pre-Adam Smith commonsense whereby ""jobs"" are seen as an exhaustable resource like say, oil or coal rather than a dynamic byproduct of economic activity. (c) The letters section of the Daily Mail.
But of course in the next election campaign it will no doubt be another ethnic group taking the jobs, women and causing car crashes in uninsured vehicles."
"Maybe Mili now understands how the British Muslims feel.
Consider how Blair roams free, years after being complicit in the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on trumped up WMD charges."
"Cor, it's all about you, isn't it? ""Sobs!""
We look forward to the fluffy Bennetton Global Village that will emerge when mass immigration reaches Lodz."
How can Gillian Duffy be 'bigoted' against Eastern Europeans if she was going to vote for a man called Danczuk? I emphasise 'was'
"Fantastic article.
I'm so sorry you have been made to feel this way, and I share your anger that the likes of Gordon Brown have to grovel to the bigots, pander to the right-wing press, and are unable to publicly defend the views they rightly feel in private."
"It is good that Ms Popova reminds people that when they say things like this there are real people who feel hurt. Her points about entitlement are very poignant. The nation state system is indeed equivalent to a class-system and this will probably be regarded as the great injustice of our time by future historians.
Having said that, we have not learnt anything significant about Brown from this incident. The media are using their power to choose the focal points of the debates irresponsibly. The focus should be on policy."
"I support you, understand your feelings and share your outrage.
having been an immigrant in other countries for nearly 20 years I believe there are also huge positives to your experience that no amount of bigotry will undo. Immigration is a condition of modernity; millions share your experience. You are challenging yourself, learning and keeping a critical eye on everything around you. If you have children they will be more creative and adaptable than their monolingual friends in this country; you will be equipping them for a global future. You have not lost your family and friends as immigrants in earlier generations did.
Britain benefits from your presence, but so do you. In the other countries I have lived there is also hostility to outsiders - yes, there is a hierarchy of hostility according to colour, place of origin and educational achievement - but it is there all the same. Many eastern Europeans I have spoken to in other parts of Europe display their own forms of racism. The further out you go from metropolitan centres in most countries I have lived in, the more racism there is.
So do think of all the good, both for Britain and yourself, that is coming out of what you are doing. Britain is he better, and richer, place for your presence."
"""And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years""
Ha ha ha!!! Funniest thing I have read all year!! could we please have some more from delicate flower!
Point of fact : if you question the immigration policy in the UK, the left will immediately brand you a bigot or racist. No debate is allowed - after all , it will bring tears to eyes of delicate flowers from Eastern Europe and we cannot have all that!"
"Duffy?
A fine Irish name.
We Irish did a lot of flocking?"
Isn't is Mrs. Duffy's human right to be a bigot, if that's what she is? Anyway, a school here, in t' North was recently appealing in the local paper for interpreters to help them with the 43 languages that are spoken there amongst its 950 pupils. I imagine that this situation is repeated all over Eastern Europe, too.
"It's interesting that there have been so many comments removed by the moderator? Interesting in the sense that they too were probably bigoted. I don't believe this woman necessarily meant to be a bigot, but actually if you replace East europeans with Pakistanis it doesn't sound quite the same does it?
Was good to hear a voice from someone other than white, male, ""english"" journalists and politicians. Made me review what she said in a different light.
Though I suspect in the end her language is more to do with a generational thing rather than deliberate bigotry...But then is that ok then? She didn't know better? Or what words to use?"
Brown's only mistake here is that he said it in private and not to her face!
or the illegal boat people as we indigenous Brits like to call them
"I understand her sentiment. But I don't agree.
i) The way that immigration from the accession countries was handled was unforgivable. Germany and France had the good sense to put a 5 year moratorium on workers from those countries coming their countries. Not because they are racist, but because they knew what would happen. Sweden, Ireland and the UK did not place any restrictions. With hindsight it is obvious that the UK would receive the most immigrants from the accession countries as it has a vibrant economy and the language used is, of course, English.
ii) Some of the immigration to the UK (EU and non-EU) has been by those with high skill sets (doctors, bankers etc.). I don't have a problem with free movement for these kinds of workers. There is a global marketplace and while US bankers can come here, UK banker can work in New York, Sydney etc.
The problem is with low-skill immigration. There is no global marketplace in the sense that a low-skill worker in the UK cannot realistically move abroad to find work. They do not have the capital (in all senses) to be able to do that. So what has happened is that immigration over the past few years has had a benefit for businesses by keeping the wages of the lowest paid down.
What is worse is that I think it has encouraged government to think (until recently) that immigrants can go on filling the 'unwanted' jobs in this country. That means that there has been no effort to deal with the structurally unemployed i.e. the 900,000-odd who are claim JSA even when the economy is strong.
I am not sure what the answer is, but here are a few suggestions:
- people who refuse jobs that they could reasonably do should not be able to claim JSA. I know that this already happens, but it is only temporary. The ban on reclaiming should not be in terms of months, it should be years.
- the education system in the UK needs fixing. Too many children in the UK are unfit for work: they cannot read or write properly or add up properly. Children should not really be allowed to leave school without having a good grasp of basic skills. This will enable to find jobs more easily.
- businesses should not be able to dictate immigration policy. Maybe businesses should have pay those at the bottom a bit more to attract local workers rather than being allowed to plug the gap with immigrants. I understand what impact this might have on business but maybe a little bit of competitiveness should be traded for social cohesion.
I appreciate the contribution to the UK that Ms Popova has made with her (higher-rate) taxes, but I am worried that this encourages government to ignore the native disadvantaged."
"Good on Charlie Stross.
But I'm also with the other posters on the emotional blackmail, that's so over the top it's ridiculous. You should try being a foreigner in NL with Geert Wilders and his 'volle is volle' line of rhetoric. As a non-NL citizen I don't get to vote here either, but I don't break down in huge heaving sobs from feeling disenfranchised. It's easy enough; if you want the vote, apply for citizenship, as I'd have to here should I want to vote.
I have listened to the clip live - and listened to it a number of times since - and what Ms Duffy seemed to be struggling to say was that she couldn't understand why someone couldn't even bring up the subject of immigration without being called a bigot - which of course she immediately was by Gordon Brown, thus neatly proving her point.
Societal change wrought by uncontrolled EU immigration may be the subject that may be not be mentioned in this election but at some point soon it'll have to be mentioned, otherwise legitimate public concern over the speed of change will curdle into an undifferentiated hostility towards immigrants, a hostility of the type that the Geert Wilders and Nick Griffins of this world are all too ready to exploit.
I don't know which country you're from Ms. Popova, but I find it hard to believe that the citizens of any nation, even yours, could cope with a sudden, very large influx of immigrants from one particular region with complete equanimity. Would that make all your compatriots bigots?
Surely you can understand Ms Duffy's legitimate concerns, hazily expressed as they were, without taking her words as some kind of personal threat?
I have to say some of the worst and most vocal racism I've heard in Holland has come from newly-arrived Eastern Europeans against 2nd and 3rd generation Moroccan-Dutch and Turkish-Dutch people. There's certainly an assumed skin colour superiority complex going on there. So is that's what's going here? Is it an 'is it because I is white' thing? Is all this crying and rending of garments simply due to you having problems believing that a white UKian could be hostile to a fellow white person?"
"She raised the immigration issue in crude, insensitive language. She said nothing bigoted. I can understand people, especially immigrants, feeling distaste towards the woman for this, I know I did. But to label her bigoted is pretty much an out and out lie. The hysteria over the word ""flocking"" in particular is completely bemusing. It's a word used all the time to describe movement of people, whtether it be to new restaurants or the world cup.
And please don't be so patronising. Your last line made my blood boil ever so slightly."
And it's on that 'education' point that - a rare event - I disagree with AllyF. There needs to be a hell of a lot of education about immigration, Ally, namely because while you clearly know your stuff, there are millions who don't - and for whom all is heard of immigration on a day-to-day basis is the bile poured onto migrants by the Express, the Mail and others. Even here in Guardian-land it's becoming unfashionable to stick up for immigrants; your views on them may indeed be reasonable, but how many tirades of abuse have you seen, even on these pages, directed at migrant communities?
"Mrs Duffy and other simular in their views on this blog:
1. If you have any problem with Europeans ""flocking"" to this rainy country - withdraw from Europe, break the trities and make yourself splendidly isolated!
2. Those of you flocking to my country for binge drinking and urinating - you are not welcome and don't be suprised by my reaction to you.
3. Support Nick Griffin and his white society, take the jobs in corner shops selling goods 6pm before going out!
4. Can you name three European countries and their capitals?
5. How many foreign languages do you speak?"
"Melina Popova
""And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years.""
maybe you might want to Popback then?
there is no link between what duffy said and the PM calling her a bigot.
your statements only show you to be a bigot in fact.
i await more information in order to change my opinion however."
"Some do. Many do not. Some are at best freeloaders and, at worst, involved in organised crime.
Mrs Duffy expressed a legitimate concern that her own town was becoming flooded with people from different countries, with different cultures and possibly different values. For a pensioner to see her town transformed in that way can be frightening. It also begs the question as to how many of the eastern Europeans are, like you, gainfully employed and contributing to society and how many are living by other means."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
"This is a well written and very much needed article. I was embarrassed by a lot of the reaction to this story yesterday. This is not about her having issues with immigration, this is about her talking about whole swathes of other people in a contemptuous and dehumanising manner, simply for belonging to a different ethnic/national group to her. Now this may have been a product of simple inarticulacy, but that doesn't change the affect that it has on people like Milena, and it still needs to be challenged. I personally believe that this country is entitled to set limits on immigration if it is in its best interest and prioritise people already living here for employment etc. I also think that it is possible to recognise that large scale immigration has resulted in losses as well as gains both culturally and practically, especially in working class areas with a large incoming population, as Ally F describes, without attacking people who have done nothing wrong, other than try to live and work in another country. Attack the issue, attack the people in power, not those who are powerless.
Oh and BTW, people who have never been in her situation don' t get to tell Milena how to feel about it."
"I'm no fan of Gordon Brown but the media's determination to assassinate his character has somewhat got in the way of the real issue here: that such casual racisim as articulated by Mrs Duffy has become acceptable in our so-called tolerant society. Yesterday's pitiful scenes of TV crews 'flocking' round Mrs Duffy was more reminiscent of a playground spatt involving a couple of eight-year-old girls (not meaning to be sexist here - I have an eight-year-old daughter). My first reaction was to thank the lord I hadn't pursued a career in journalism. At least I have some diginity left.
And shame on you all those who told the blogger to 'get a grip'. Have we learned nothing from the events of the 20th centruy?"
"It's quite possible to be concerned about immigration without being bigotted.
There are many good things to be said about immigration, but it would be silly to think there are no negative consequences.
The sudden influx of of such a large number of eastern europeans in such a short period inevitably created some problems as well as providing active people for the economy.
If Milena doesn't like it she knows where the door is."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
I'm sure if half a million Brits went over to Poland to work and there were millions of unemployed Poles there some tensions would arise there also?
"And it seems you'll continue struggling to get any comments.
Well done and spot on. Call a bigot a bigot.
this is indeed a sad indictment of our society, PC is now in total contrast to what it was. The downward spiral has begun."
"Is Gillian Duffy a bigot?
According to Dictionary.com a Bigot is:
""a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.""
Now Mrs Duffy didn't express anything like this opinion. Using rather poor grammar she said:
""All these Eastern European immigrants, where are they flocking from?"". I doubt she meant to use the word flocking as a replacement for fucking. Her question is rhetorical. Eastern European immigrants are from Eastern Europe. Simples as Alexandr would say.
I would hazard a guess that she isn't very bright or worldly. She chose to express her concerns about her changing surroundings in a rather clumsy way.
Thirty years ago, some one would have no doubt said the same thing but it would have been 'Paki' instead of Eastern European. Sixty years ago, it would have been 'black' instead of Eastern European and 80 years ago it would have been Jewish.
The issue here is that no politician is willing to debate the topic.
In reality therefore Brown is the Bigot, not Mrs Duffy as in accordance with the definition he is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
It is clear that immigration is a topic that concerns a large part of the electorate for many reasons. This concern has lead to the increase in support and profile for the BNP. The Labour party, with the connivance of the Tories and Lib Dems have imposed a massive change on the fabric of society and the way this country is run (The EU for example) without once asking the electorate whether they mind. When they do express an opinion they are condoned as racists or bigots."
"You are angry at a 66 year-old woman who doesn't understand why we need immigration when we have high unemployment? Try and walk in her shoes for a while. Her family and friends find it hard to find jobs and housing. A lot of jobs have been taken by immigrants. Wages for low-skilled jobs have fallen rather than risen. It is hard to get council housing because much of it is now owned privately and rented by immigrants. Private rents have gone up.
There is little doubt that life would be better for the working classes in this country if there had been much less immigration. That doesn't mean they dislike immigrants or are racist. It just means that they recognise that they would be better off without them.
Middle class people tend to like immigration because it provides them with cheaper services. Often migrants are harder working as they recognise how lucky they are to be in this country with the opportunities it offers. This means that the middle classes get better quality services too. Most of the middle class does not have to compete with immigrant labour.
Politicians like immigration because businessmen provide their campaign funding and their opportunities for lucrative employment later on. Businesses like the cheaper labour and extra customers that immigration provides.
Mrs Duffy was not being bigoted. She was displaying exactly the same self-interest as everyone else. She knows what is good for her, her friends and family. She deserves honest answers. She does not deserve to be patronised and ridiculed."
"Mrs Duffy and other simular in their views on this blog:
1. If you have any problem with Europeans ""flocking"" to this rainy country - withdraw from Europe, break the trities and make yourself splendidly isolated!
2. Those of you flocking to my country for binge drinking and urinating - you are not welcome and don't be suprised by my reaction to you.
3. Support Nick Griffin and his white society, take the jobs in corner shops selling goods 6pm before going out!
4. Can you name three European countries and their capitals?
5. How many foreign languages do you speak?"
"This is a well written and very much needed article. I was embarrassed by a lot of the reaction to this story yesterday. This is not about her having issues with immigration, this is about her talking about whole swathes of other people in a contemptuous and dehumanising manner, simply for belonging to a different ethnic/national group to her. Now this may have been a product of simple inarticulacy, but that doesn't change the affect that it has on people like Milena, and it still needs to be challenged. I personally believe that this country is entitled to set limits on immigration if it is in its best interest and prioritise people already living here for employment etc. I also think that it is possible to recognise that large scale immigration has resulted in losses as well as gains both culturally and practically, especially in working class areas with a large incoming population, as Ally F describes, without attacking people who have done nothing wrong, other than try to live and work in another country. Attack the issue, attack the people in power, not those who are powerless.
Oh and BTW, people who have never been in her situation don' t get to tell Milena how to feel about it."
as for "To be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice?" What? You can vote in local and European elections in the UK and in Polish elections. Plenty of nazi-supporting homophobes there for you to choose!
Great article. We should be ashamed as a country how we have reacted to this. It's time to take a stand against the bigots.
"Two points ...
Brown once said British jobs for British workers.... Then when an old lady queries the immigration figures.. suddenly he calls her a bigot... Do the words pot.. kettle .. and black ring any bells.
I thought that free speech was one of the things we Brits once prided ourselves on."
"I think you will find that the racism in Eastern Europe is deeper and nastier than here.
This was a woman expressing concern about how local people can get jobs with what she thinks as high migration. I think she is wrong, ignorant and misled. The popular press controlled by an Australian turned American, the Northcliffe family and a pornographer are largely to blame for her ignorance.
Eastern Europe has huge problems of racism and ethnic conflict from Roma to Albanians, to Germans, Russians, non Baltics, the wrong kind of Slav and especially any one of colour. Of course it is not nice if some people are making you feel unwelcome. It is not nice anywhere, but please try and keep a sense of proportion."
"Migration is a two way street. If those Brits that want to ban people coming in, they should want to ban people leaving too.
I can understand people worrying about the change around them which seems to happen ever faster but they shouldn't blame other people who are also being exposed to those same forces, namely the immigrants. The current migration is beyond one government to control, if controling it is desirable anyway. It is the international economic forces that are driving the change and the migration, not ordianry people. Despite all the bitching about immigrantion, I don't hear people wanting to ditch the economic system that is driving it. Or am I wrong?"
"She raised the immigration issue in crude, insensitive language. But she made no bigoted assertions. I can understand people, especially immigrants, feeling distaste towards the woman for this, I know I did. But to label her bigoted is pretty much an out and out lie. The hysteria over the word ""flocking"" in particular is completely bemusing. It's a word used all the time to describe movement of people, whether it be to new restaurants or the world cup.
And please don't be so patronising. Your last line made my blood boil ever so slightly."
"I think you will find that the racism in Eastern Europe is deeper and nastier than here.
This was a woman expressing concern about how local people can get jobs with what she thinks as high migration. I think she is wrong, ignorant and misled. The popular press controlled by an Australian turned American, the Northcliffe family and a pornographer are largely to blame for her ignorance.
Eastern Europe has huge problems of racism and ethnic conflict from Roma to Albanians, to Germans, Russians, non Baltics, the wrong kind of Slav and especially any one of colour. Of course it is not nice if some people are making you feel unwelcome. It is not nice anywhere, but please try and keep a sense of proportion."
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Thank you Gordon!
"Migration is a two way street. If those Brits that want to ban people coming in, they should want to ban people leaving too.
I can understand people worrying about the change around them which seems to happen ever faster but they shouldn't blame other people who are also being exposed to those same forces, namely the immigrants. The current migration is beyond one government to control, if controling it is desirable anyway. It is the international economic forces that are driving the change and the migration, not ordianry people. Despite all the bitching about immigrantion, I don't hear people wanting to ditch the economic system that is driving it. Or am I wrong?"
"The comments I've received to this article here and elsewhere fall roughly into the following categories:
1. A lot of people came forward and said ""I'm sorry I didn't stand up to this earlier, I took it as given that she was a bigot and didn't think it needed saying.""
2. A slightly smaller number of people have re-iterated concerns about immigration - some coherently, others less so.
3. A small number of people tell me they're fine with me personally and with others like me who pay tax, but all those other immigrants should go home.
4. A small number of people have told me that I'm overreacting and that people say much worse things on a daily basis about immigrants.
5. And a tiny minority have told me to eff of home.
To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.
To those who say Gillian Duffy's comments were harmless and people say much worse things: You are right, they do. But most people who say worse things don't get grovelling apologies from the Prime Minister, don't get to dominate the news cycle for over 24 hours, and don't get £50,000 from the Sun.
To those who are fine with me personally: Thanks. I am flattered. No, not really. I've been on the receiving end of this all my life. Huge loud heated discussion about all those foreigners taking our jobs and our women, then someone turns around, sees me, falls silent and mutters how *of course* they didn't mean me. It comes back to this: Every human being deserves to be treated with some basic dignity and respect, regardless of whether they work hard, pay tax, speak perfect English, or contribute in some other way to society. It's easy to forget that - and I have at times been guilty of forgetting that myself. But maybe by standing up and writing this, I can help us all remember.
To the people who would like me to eff off home: Britain is my home, for better or for worse. I have lived here longer than in any other country; my partner is British; most of my friends are either British or live here; when I have children, I want to raise them here. It's as simple as that.
And finally, as it's the most complex issue, to those who have re-iterated concerns about immigration: Of course there are legitimate concerns in this area. However, the word immigration is often used to cover a multitude of sins - from unemployment, to housing, education, health care, social services. These are all complex issues, and I believe we should look at them individually and give them the amount of attention they deserve. Using immigration as a short-cut is lazy and cheap political point-scoring. I've said it once and I'll say it again: The sad thing is that the political culture of this country makes it difficult to have a real debate on those issues because presenting a balanced view on the subject would be political suicide."
I would also rather have no job than work for £5.90 an hour. I don't think people of any country in the world would think differently, given the cost of living here. Pay a fair wage and people will be more than happy to do any job, no matter how "menial".
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"Two points ...
Brown once said British jobs for British workers.... Then when an old lady queries the immigration figures.. he calls her a bigot... Do the words pot.. kettle .. and black ring any bells.
I thought that free speech was one of the things we Brits once prided ourselves on."
"Well, i pretty much cheered when i heard that Brown had made a media 'slip-up' by calling that woman a bigot - not because i'm a disenfranchised ex-Labour voter (which i am) but because i thought for once he had shown a bit of socialist backbone. Of course immigration has contributed an obscene amount to our economy (which Brown obviously realises more than most), and it's a pity those remarks weren't directed to the lady's face.
However Milena, it seems a little reactionary to blame UK citizens for the awkward and in many ways shameful reactions of the media and your Twitter network. I love Twitter more than most, but flippant gags normally trump profound moral insight when you're only playing with 140 characters. As a Brit, we are a very complacent and entitled lot - but we mostly fall short of supporting ill-informed and, yes, bigotted opinions...
I also cannot begin to comprehend approaching any of my Polish and Ukranian friends/acquaintances about their immigrant outlook - are you kidding?! That's a few backward steps towards 'tolerating' people who've pledged to spend their life here, as opposed to 'accepting' that they're part of our British community.
I am sorry that the whole episode caused you (understandable) distress, but the hatemongering section of our society are quite easy to distinguish. They normally work at the Daily Mail..."
"I am a Northern white working class person.
Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.
I had been watching ""bigotgate"" unfold ? mostly on Twitter, a bit on LiveJournal, a bit in mainstream media ? since around lunchtime. Oh, I thought initially, finally someone's made a gaffe in this election campaign ? just what the media have been wanting. Then I actually went and watched the clip ? first the short version on the Channel 4 News website which only has the last 30 seconds of the PM's conversation with Gillian Duffy and his comments in the car; then I watched the full thing, which included Brown's comments on the ""bigoted woman"".
Then I watched the comments on Twitter. Some were mocking Gillian Duffy for being white and working class.
I started feeling ever so slightly nauseous. A part of me knew from the start that what Brown had said was unacceptable, it was directed against me and people like me, and it just wasn't right. But reading my Twitter feed I felt ashamed of being white and working class.
Maybe I was being oversensitive.
I did eventually pluck up the courage to tweet a shy, self-deprecating ""White working class person here. Just sayin'.""
At that point I completely lost it. I'm not sure I can explain how this whole sordid affair makes me feel, but let me try.
Anger. Anger at Gordon Brown, anger at all the people who weren't willing to stand up to him.
A desperate need to justify myself. I pay higher-rate income tax. I contribute to the UK economy, I contribute to UK society. I probably pay into the tax system more than I get back out of it.
More anger. This time at being disempowered and disenfranchised; at being a cheap target for political point scoring because Brown and the others in the power have ignored me for 13 years .
That's how Gordon Brown made me feel. What did I ever do to him ?"
"Is Gillian Duffy a bigot?
According to Dictionary.com a Bigot is:
""a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.""
Now Mrs Duffy didn't express anything like this opinion. Using rather poor grammar she said:
""All these Eastern European immigrants, where are they flocking from?"". I doubt she meant to use the word flocking as a replacement for fucking. Her question is rhetorical. Eastern European immigrants are from Eastern Europe. Simples as Alexandr would say.
I would hazard a guess that she isn't very bright or worldly. She chose to express her concerns about her changing surroundings in a rather clumsy way.
Thirty years ago, some one would have no doubt said the same thing but it would have been 'Paki' instead of Eastern European. Sixty years ago, it would have been 'black' instead of Eastern European and 80 years ago it would have been Jewish.
The issue here is that no politician is willing to debate the topic.
In reality therefore Brown is the Bigot, not Mrs Duffy as in accordance with the definition he is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
It is clear that immigration is a topic that concerns a large part of the electorate for many reasons. This concern has lead to the increase in support and profile for the BNP. The Labour party, with the connivance of the Tories and Lib Dems have imposed a massive change on the fabric of society and the way this country is run (The EU for example) without once asking the electorate whether they mind. When they do express an opinion they are condoned as racists or bigots."
"If you were here on a work permit you would not hear comments like Mrs Duffy's taken seriously.
You can blame Labour and the Conservative's for any hostile reception, whether it's justified or not is besides the point. Unfortunately I can only see the unfavourable reaction of the many member of the British public getting worse in the future.
There is a reason why almost every country in world does not have open borders. This is what happens when you force uncontrolled immigration on a unwanting public without their consent. Member countries of the misguided EU are obviously the exceptions."
"It shows the truth about Britain , the crazy topsy turvy world we live in. Vast swathes of the media are dedicated to abusing immigrants on a daily basis, large numbers of people make bigoted remarks on a daily basis. Immigrants are demonised as fanatics, criminals, drunks or lazy depending on where they come from, they are blamed for rising crime when crime is falling, and yet these proud warriors of free speech would have us believe that there is a vast liberal conspiracy to silence debate on immigration, it beggars belief
Brown should have challlenged the woman to her face, but if he had, he would have been castigated for that too.The way she framed her question,the tone and the words she used conveyed bigotry. Brown was polite to her face, but had a little moan in private, something most of do nearly every day when dealing with difficult people at work. For this the hysterical far right press, who spend the rest of the time attacking immigrants in words that would not have been out of place in the 1930s, have pillioried them.
This article shows the flipside of this issue and the real truth, that far from immigration never being discussed and immigrants being beyond criticism, they are battered with far right hatred every day, much of it on the front of our popular press.
I'm getting more and more angry about the Orwellian doublethink being paraded today,
you're all hypocrites."
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"Personally I think that having the East Europeans in this country is great on several levels. Firstly, they have similar backgrounds to us, they hold similar beliefs and hold essentially converging views about how life should be lived. ie they easily fit into the British way of life. . They also do not want to kill anyone and the woman are real women and frankly put most British women to shame. Like the men too frankly - good blokes in a faintly British was that is easy to relate too. So generally - regarding Eastern Europeans being here its more than fine with me.
There are other groups that most certainly I cannot say fit into the above description. Cant say who they are because as we all know we are liable to arrest for such saying things..
Anyway - Mrs Duffy - right topic - just wrong example."
"My husband is a builder who works mostly building large municipal structures. These jobs are usually on a contract basis for around a year or two. My husband is a settled Irish immigrant, he has lived here for 20 years.
When the ascension state immigration happened every time he started a new job the rates went lower and lower and lower. The eastern Europeans he worked with mainly intended to work in the UK for a couple of years then return home with enough savings to give themselves a comfortable life in their home country. As it was a temporary situation they were happy to live in conditions that would not be acceptable or workable in the long term, for instance living in shared rooms in digs.
We, meanwhile were left with a plummeting income which had once been ample to support a family on, we could no longer afford a decent standard of living, we struggled to pay our rent, had to get rid of our car and could no longer take holidays. And yes, I did feel disempowered and disenfranchised.
And if you're treated as badly as you say you are by this society in what is basically a long whinge about how vile the British are then you know where the door is, use it. And don't let it hit you on the way out."
"vercol

Isn't this just a gross generalisatiion? East Europe, west Europe, how about the world?"
I couldn't agree with you more and I'm honestly so glad you decided to write about how you felt by this. I don't feel an apology should have been forced and I think Mr Brown showed admirable restraint by waiting until after to comment on the exchange, but that his opinion was spot on.
"The ""Eastern Europeans"" Mrs Duffy is referring to clearly aren't middle-class, metropolitan professionals like the author, but are young people who come here to do unskilled labour like fruit-picking etc.
They can work for the kind of wages that while better than Polish wages (or why come here?), are totally inadequate for a British worker trying to bring up a family and run a home.
Working class people don't hate Eastern Europeans, they hate crap governments that deliberately wreck their chances of finding work in their home country, and who then turn around and accuse them of racism for having the nerve to complain about it.
And what's with all the pathetic keyboard warriors slagging off a an old lady anyway?"
"Well Said!
My wife is originally from Russia, and therefore have a real insight into the immigration process in the UK, and how bloody hard it is, seeing the years of struggle she had becoming legal here (even though she came across as a 14 yr old by her mum who married an English guy)."
"There are a lot of people on here who, like me, have reacted empathetically to your distress after yesterday and *whilst pointing out that we are indeed in favour of immigration and are not racists* agree that Duffy is not necessarily a great ambassador for tolerant British society, however she is not really any sort of antagonist.
Anybody is allowed to ask questions, even if you are just being devil's advocate. Why should one person's questions indicate that an entire country doesn't care for our valued immigrant population?"
The point is that immigrants with families are given favourable treatment by local authorities in preference to British people. It is wrong and causes resentment. If people from Eastern Europe object to local indignation at the injustice they should return home.
"So we are not allowed to discuss the second most important issue for Britons because it makes someone cry. Get real.
The reality is that some east Europeans are hard working and industrious, but others, for example Slovak Roma, have a different attitude to work and benefits.
Thank God we have free speech in Britain, unlike most of the former east European countries. Or can we not say that either?"
Yes I do have a huge sense of entitlement because I was actually born here. I actually feel a connection with those that were also born here. They are in some small way part of my extended "family", part of my community. I may disagree with them but I still care for them. I don't care for everyone that washes up here, particularly those that have abandoned their own compatriots and washed up here to make a fast buck whilst millions of my compatriots are out of work, unable to support their families. So no, I don't care if you pay British tax. I don't believe that gives you any kind of entitlement except of the most transient kind. If you weren't paying that tax, one of my compatriots would be.
And yet you wont take citizenship!
I wonder does Gillian Duffy realise her last name is Irish and that people were saying the same thing about Irish immigrants 25 years ago...plus ca change
"_AT_whatithink;
""This article makes a very important point and makes it well. Why is it OK for Gillian Duffy to be a bigot""
I've yet to here anyone explain how she is a bigot.
It's particularly interesting reading CiF threads since this incident. Just as with Brown's own comments, some of the postings on here reveal the gaping chasm between the Marie Antoinettes of middle class liberalism, and the proles who have loyally provided the votes to power their 'project'.
Or, if you like, the chasm between those who've gained cheap nannies and enjoyed culture tourism on their own doorstep as interesting new eateries spring up, and those who've seen their earning power demolished and their communities turned upside down.
When labour boast of their minimum wage, it needs to be pointed out that for many people this is a benchmark which labour policy has driven their income down to, versus dragged it up to.
Against which backdrop, the ranks of liberal ninnies in their ivory towers, deploying - even at this stage in the game - their latte fascist prattle that demonises any prole wayward enough to complain about this situation, are both laughable and appalling.
This gilded metropolitan elite have destroyed the labour party and grievously damaged the social fabric of this country. If the BBC was ever to become a commercial channel they would disappear from view completely, but as it stands, the control this small band exert over the media establishment ensures our whole political discourse is shaped in line with the interests of a monied bohemian elite.
So the working class will become increasingly more disenfranchised, and inequality will widen.
And the prattling ninnies will risibly continue to call the tories 'the nasty party'.
Whatever you think you are, 'whatithink', you are not of the left - at least if that has any residual meaning connected with concern for the working class. You are not of the people. You, in ninnyspeak, are their class enemy."
"The article is nothing but money for old rope.
It has done nothing but give the usual anti-working class professionals the usual group love in whilst wallowing in their own generalizations about British workers being lazy.
The sad fact of the matter is that the issue of class politics is now slowly sadly and sickly becoming immeshed with the politics of race and immigration, so either the BNP and griffin are part of some sort of brilliant charismatic highly intelligent politcal entity OR ,as is more likely there popularity is being fuelled by the likes of so called left wing middle class people who seem to have some inbuilt hated towards anyone poorer than them, and even better educated than them.
Disgusting. The author of this piece is the one would should feel shame.
Questions for the author of the article: Have you ever considered that you only got the job because you are white? Oh and middle class..so why is that you are moaning?"
And yet you wont take citizenship!
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"So we are not allowed to discuss the second most important issue for Britons because it makes someone cry. Get real.
The reality is that some east Europeans are hard working and industrious, but others, for example Slovak Roma, have a different attitude to work and benefits.
Thank God we have free speech in Britain, unlike most of the former east European countries. Or can we not say that either?"
And yet you wont take citizenship!
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
"_AT_AllyF:
I don't understand your situation, could you please elaborate? Are these travellers or are they living in houses? Are these people EU residents? Is this a similar situation to that about which Mrs Duffy was concerned?
At the risk of blundering into a sensitive issue, I'm not sure that these issues are 100% connected. Being angry about a large group of possibly illegal foreign settlers does not necesarily justify comments about east europeans legally 'flocking' into the country, unless this is specifically the issue being referred to. There is the danger of being, to be frank, racist. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of racist opinions, I am genuinely interesting in understanding the situation.
Melina is telling us how the comments made by Mrs Duffy upset her. She will not be the only one. Therefore Mr Brown is not the only one with some apologising to do."
"I'm an immigrant, albeit with a historical british connection.
I believe that immigration is beneficial, and there are many good reasons for it however:
1) These reasons are not explained to the white working class of this country.
2) The government has done little to expand opportunity for this group in the last 13 years.
3) The majority of the white working class are not racist or bigoted, but are bewildered by a government that has created 3 million jobs, most of which go to immigrants, without managing to explain the benefits to them.
4) Gillian Duffy is one of those people.
5) Immigration didn't seem to be a deal-breaker for her, until she heard what Brown had said about her, she would've voted for him, immigrants or no immigrants.
6) This implies that she simply wanted to raise it as an issue, asking a Labour government to address it, because she trusted them to do it in a responsible fashion, reflecting the concerns of a loyal electorate who simply wanted reassurance over this issue.
These actions do not a bigot make. However, many people, including the author of the article have leapt to a judgement about Duffy crying shame on her, in a fashion that is, to coin a phrase ""sort of bigoted"". This group is blinded by self-righteous notions that gently questioning governments priorities is the same as extremism. It is this hysterical over-reaction that ensures anger and extremism, as people begin to feel that they are being bullied into silence.
What the whole sorry saga reveals is not that ordinary Britons are bigoted, nor that the right wing media has succeeded in it's devilish plan to make the country racist, but that Brown has betrayed his own base because he has never addressed points 1-3 above. If he had done so, then Mrs Duffy would never have asked the question, because she is not bigoted and is obviously quite open to reason.
It is the author of this article and many other people who have posted on this thread and elsewhere that suffer from a lack of awareness, namely that the bigotry they see in Mrs Duffy is alive and well in them. They would call themselves progressives, i would call them liberal fascists."
"I am sorry for you, I didn't realise that Mrs Duffy was making a direct comment about you personnaly! If you listened to Mrs Duffy without taking everyword as a personnel attack on all Eastern European people you will find her comments had a valid point. The ""Flocking"" of or influx of people from European states has been significant. There have been very little immigration controls. Some of the arguments posted on this site suggest that we have the right to move to other European countries. What if we don't want to?
I applaud your work ethic but you should be aware others from within the EU do not have this and have came to this country to exploit the benifit system and prosper, in the past, from the strength of the economy. In Roachdale and in my local community there has been a lot of problems, criminaly from certain elements of the migrating population and I believe Mrs Duffy had a vaild point in raising the issue along with the other issues she raised about taxation! Wonder if there are any irate tax collectors out there as Mrs Duffy picked on them too! As for Browns comments - He came off rather well in the confrontation but his digust afterward has proved that all these 'engaging' encounters with the public are carefully managed and Mrs Duffy got through!! no honesty what so ever in politics today!!!
As for your no vote comment, I agree Taxation without representation is criminal, but think about how we as brittons feel when our elected officals act without our consent including acting when we are so vocal in our opposition, e.g EU Treaty, Iraq War - Our votes count for nothing!! So don't feel left out.
Out of the three main parties we have no choice! we have the same greedy manipulative politicians we will always have unless we can make a difference. I beg everyone not to vote on May 6. Show your own disgust with the entire system.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Election-2010-Dont-Vote/112693892099996"
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
"Dear Marina
I'm glad you've written this. I am British but I can understand the feeling of disenfranchisement from voting even though I vote ... let me explain ... I cast my vote, but the newspapers, TV, political blogsters, media in general (particularly those controlled by Murdoch and Tory leaning such as NOTW and Spectator) completely cut off mine and the opinion of 65% of population which are anti-bigots and anti-selfishness of those that are the richest people in the country. 65% is the percentage of people that do no vote Tory and therefore the majority of people (including me) are disenfranchised by the Tory leaning and in particular sensationalist Murdoch media. They block views that are not in their interest and give the impression that people are behind them, and try to manipulat and sway the electoral system. This time round, leading to GE 2010 we feel disenfranchised because the media, particulaly SkyN and Sun and NOTW and Daily Mail, have completely ignored policy and try to influence the outcome through stage managed and crass attacks on Gordon Brown, or Nick Clegg or anyone who does not fit in with Cameron/Osborne. We run the risk of turning into Bush's USA 2000-2008 controlled by the rightwing neocon section of Tories lead by their puppet Cameron.
The people need to stand up to Murdoch empire and their Tory mouthpiece, we have to come together to ensure that Tories do not win this election otherwise so many people, including Eastern Europeans and other perfectly lawful overseas visitors working here and the British people 65% of which will be disenfranchised. The anger and resentment will be so enormous and will create fractures in the fabric of society the longer the Tories are allowed to rule. And without electoral reform their task helped by Ashcroft and Murdoch empire will be complete, they will keep the FPTP electoral system and keep a stranglehold on the rest of us that don't want them. We need to make sure the voice of the majority British people and those people like Marina who live here and are also disenfranchised and feel opressed and unfairly treated in the way she describes vote properly and not be swayed by the scandal that is Murdoch's continuous mudslinging at Brown, of which bigotgate is the latest attempt. LibDem and Labour need to work together to keep the Tories out.
If there is any risk in a constituency that the Tory can get in, then left & liberal minded people need to make sure you vote for the party that is most likely to prevent them. This means in some places LibDem voters swallowing partisan pride and vote for Labour and vice versa. Where LibDem and Labour are marginals against each other, then the best chance to keep Tories out nationally is to vote Labour as it is the party that can get enough vote to block tories."
"I'm angry too.
We get the politicians and it seems the media we deserve.
You feel disenfranchised and yet can get your ideas across in a national newspaper. Where does that leave the rest of us?
I'll answer you - fucked."
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I'm struggling to believe that there are people praising Brown for calling her a bigot Even if we leave aside whether she is a bigot on this evidence (she's not, you know), the fact that he made it behind her back after 5 minutes of the usual political simpering is nothing but cowardly, surely?
"It is quite possible to express concern about easten european immigration, as Mrs Duffy did without being being labelled a bigot.
Immigration may well have a positive side - but also negative ones. The huge influx of eastern europeans in a very short space of time has, in addition to the benefits that has brought, caused some problems. To ignore that or demonise anyone who raises the issue is disgusting.
The main issue is, however - Brown's hypocrisy, as the quiotre below demonstrates
""I have never agreed with the lazy elitism that dismisses immigration as an issue, or portrays anyone who has concerns about immigration as a racist.
Immigration is not an issue for fringe parties nor a taboo subject - it is a question to be dealt with at the heart of our politics, a question about what it means to be British.....""
From the Prime Minister's Speech on Immigration in Ealing, west London.
(12 November, 2009)"
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I think the woman was bigoted in her comments and obvious distaste for Eastern Europeans. Gordon Brown should have shown the courage of his convictions and outlined why he said that about her. He should have defended the good name of any immigrant and not been flailing so desperately to undo the political damage.
"Milena, since you wrote a whole article about Gillian Duffy being a bigot, it would have been nice if you have given over a sentence or two to justify that accusation?
How is she a bigot?"
"_AT_AllyF:
I don't understand your situation, could you please elaborate? Are these travellers or are they living in houses? Are these people EU residents? Is this a similar situation to that about which Mrs Duffy was concerned?
At the risk of blundering into a sensitive issue, I'm not sure that these issues are 100% connected. Being angry about a large group of possibly illegal foreign settlers does not necesarily justify comments about east europeans legally 'flocking' into the country, unless this is specifically the issue being referred to. There is the danger of being, to be frank, racist. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone of racist opinions, I am genuinely interesting in understanding the situation.
Melina is telling us how the comments made by Mrs Duffy upset her. She will not be the only one. Therefore Mr Brown is not the only one with some apologising to do."
How does someone this sensitive to perceived criticism function in the real world?
"Like Worky above, I think your reaction to this Milena is perhaps mitigated by the fact that your main source of information was a Twitter feed. I wouldn't presume to tell you to get a life, if only for the fact that I too was following this story mainly on Twitter yesterday, but demotic as Twitter is, it doesn't really reflect a clear picture of public opinion. Anyway, from what I saw during yesterday afternoon, a lot of people (myself included) were saying ""Well I think this woman (or her statements) could be seen as bigoted"", so don't go assuming that you had no support within the population as a whole.
Having said that, the more I hear about this non-story (heaven help us if the election hinges on this), the more I think it sad that we still seem unable to move away from the ""them coming over here"" ignorance and fear that typifies the debate on immigration, rather than considering such things as net inward and outward migration."
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
"Milena, since you wrote a whole article about Gillian Duffy being a bigot, it would have been nice if you have given over a sentence or two to justify that accusation?
How is she a bigot?"
"Mrs Duffy's comment only served to highlight just how bigoted the vast majority of people in this country have become. It is a sad endightment of our supposedly tolerant society that such casual racism is not acceptable but seemingly to be applauded and defended. Shame on you those who claim she's only saying what needs to be said and voicing an opinion that many share but are too frightened to express because of so-called 'political correctness'.
I have several Eastern European friends - parents of children at the same school as my own - and they are appalled at the way the media, and Cameron, have leapt to Mrs Duffy's defence.
Fair play to Gordon Brown for syaing what he did. My only criticism is that he didn't have the Ed Balls to say it in public."
I'm struggling to believe that there are people praising Brown for calling her a bigot Even if we leave aside whether she is a bigot on this evidence (she's not, you know), the fact that he made it behind her back after 5 minutes of the usual political simpering is nothing but cowardly, surely?
"Well said Mili.
Unfortunately this country is full of xenophobes, egged on by the Tory press. I'm afraid nothing is going to change that. We prefer blaming outsiders for our problems to confronting and doing something about them.
One thing that really annoys me about the anti-immigration zealots is the way that they keep going on about how overcrowded Britain is. The thing that always strikes me, as I travel around, is that the opposite is true. Huge areas (outside the south-east) are just empty. Wales could double in population and no-one would notice.
I think Nick Clegg has got it just right with his regional scheme"
"Great post.
Its appalling that we are more willing to attack the person who correctly describes somebody as a bigot for peddling prejuidced untruths about migrants than we are to call them what they are."
"This a battle between reason and the siren call of the right-wing press with their fake worldview, designed to highten tension, spread discontent and sell papers.
I note that Poland has yet to provide the UK with popular Polish-style restaurants. Impress us with your food and the process of being embraced, even by the most degenerate, knuckle-dragging types, will begin.
What Englishman can live without curry, for example?"
"This article echoes my thoughts exactly.
All the Brown-bashing in the media suggests that actually treating Eastern Europeans like non-citizens is fine. Gordon Brown might have made a political blinder by calling her a bigot, but it is only because he did so in private. If he had said it to her face and publicly I would have nothing but respect for him. Politicians are not there to cater to the views of every single ignorant individual and should be allowed to expose hateful people like Mrs. Duffy.
Normal eurosceptic service may now resume."
Well done for writing this...Brown certainly made a gaff, but he wasn't wrong in his view.
"Like Worky above, I think your reaction to this Milena is perhaps mitigated by the fact that your main source of information was a Twitter feed. I wouldn't presume to tell you to get a life, if only for the fact that I too was following this story mainly on Twitter yesterday, but demotic as Twitter is, it doesn't really reflect a clear picture of public opinion. Anyway, from what I saw during yesterday afternoon, a lot of people (myself included) were saying ""Well I think this woman (or her statements) could be seen as bigoted"", so don't go assuming that you had no support within the population as a whole.
Having said that, the more I hear about this non-story (heaven help us if the election hinges on this), the more I think it sad that we still seem unable to move away from the ""them coming over here"" ignorance and fear that typifies the debate on immigration, rather than considering such things as net inward and outward migration."
"These comments are exactly what is wrong with New Labour and its supporters.
The majority of contributions prove that New Labour supporters are a cabal of sneering intellectual liberals who believe they know best.
Let us be honest, most of you vote labour because you believe it is a moral pursuit. Anyone who does not believe in your crusade is vilified.
Why cannot the prols accept our rule, shut up and accept what it is good for them.
The Labour party has been hijacked by the politically correct chattering class with absolutely no understanding of what drives people like poor old Mrs Duffy. Her only sin was to believe that New Labour represented her interests."
Well, here's another one, Milena - thank you for this article. It is a shaming moment to be British (and to be Labour).
Mrs Duffy is just the latest in a line of xenophobes stretching way back for centuries. First it was the Irish, who came and built our canals, then it was the Asians who came and opened our convenient corner shops, then it was the Blacks, now it is members of the European Union "flocking" from Eastern Europe. She is ignorant of the two-way passage of labour in the EU and Brown tried to explain it to her. He was patient and polite. No wonder he expressed his exasperation when he was out of earshot - except that he wasn't, which was bad luck. Of course he should be sympathetic to the worries of people for their jobs; I think he is. Xenophobia always increases in times of recession but it's still xenophobia. Don't other people find bigots irritating?
"One has to break this incident down into its constituent parts, something our media is congenitally incapable of doing. First there is Mrs Duffy and the type of person and class that she represents, there is how a politician deals with the sort of exchange they have with a voter on the hustings, there is the balance of opinion across the UK and then there is Gordon Brown.
Mrs Duffy is partly bigoted and whether that is attributable to intelligence, background or media/friends brainwashing is difficult to say given the brouhaha that has broken out.
She comes from a section of the country that currently has the bit between its teeth about immigration and all those who want to exploit that from racists to politicians are riding that wave for all it is worth. There are many myths about immigration but all the facts put before people do not seem to be allaying fears and grievances - justified or not.
A politician interacts with voters according to how their personality and experience directs them. Too many politicians agree with their interlocutor in order to win their vote although, generally speaking, more extreme topics such as racism tend to make politicians take a harder line. What a politician needs to avoid is appearing to be a hypocrite or liar and saying one thing whilst thinking (or saying) the other is a natural turn-off.
That Gordon Brown got it wrong is part of his story and thus is not that big a news story. His mistake in my view is to regard his encounter with her as out of the ordinary and a 'disaster' as that seems to confirm that he is not really in tune with the common man even if he may not agree with him.
My feeling is that the majority of people do not really get worked up about East Europeans coming here to work within EU rules - except the lazy sods who think they are being done out of a job but in reality wouldn't want hard work. But the UK is a slightly dour country and it should not surprise Milena that there is grumpiness in certain quarters. The barrow merchant who mocks the EU about weights and measures is as part of the British landscape (unfortunately) as the Oxford don. The country is conservative with a small c, which is why the Tory party still exists and why a change such as an influx of Poles rocks the status quo."
"Well said Mili.
Unfortunately this country is full of xenophobes, egged on by the Tory press. I'm afraid nothing is going to change that. We prefer blaming outsiders for our problems to confronting and doing something about them.
One thing that really annoys me about the anti-immigration zealots is the way that they keep going on about how overcrowded Britain is. The thing that always strikes me, as I travel around, is that the opposite is true. Huge areas (outside the south-east) are just empty. Wales could double in population and no-one would notice.
I think Nick Clegg has got it just right with his regional scheme"
Finally someone agrees that Duffy IS a bigot and there are god knows how many more like her in the UK. It would have been a fantastic election moment if Brown had been the first politician to not sit on the fence, to not worry about offending a potential voter and say, 'You're a bigot! Your narrow-minded opinion isn't acceptable in this day and age.' And he did. And then he apologised for this... Pff.
"_AT_AllyF
Classic grandstanding. You say:

So I assume the emotional wellbeing of those in your community is related to how well represented their ethnicity is? What exactly do you mean?

Why not? If you took her advice, you may make some headway in closing this vast gap in understanding you describe:

Presumably all those Roma were moved there because your neighbourhood was deemed to have more resource (housing etc) than others and was therefore better able to cope with the influx.
Disappointing stuff, AllyF. If I was Milena Popova I would break down in floods of tears reading your post, but as it is I'll just calmly await your reply."
A good post Milena. I think that people see a problem and want a scapegoat. It saves a lot of thinking. I've worked abroad and so have a small sense of what it's like to be somewhere when one is not 'one of us'.
"Milena

A balanced view?
What like bursting into tears when an old granny says thats Eastern Europeans have flocked to this country?
Do you think that branding people bigots for suggesting that the immigration policy of the last few years might not have worked particularly well is balanced?"
"""Words fail me. Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.""
Oh, so we'd better all observe a respectful silence and agree with anything else you've got to say.
Congratulations. A great future awaits you as a me-me-me, why-oh-why columnist.. Liz Jones is shaking in her Jimmy Choos."
"Racist bigots like yourself do not represent 60 million British people (in fact, you hate and wish to remove about 2 million of our fellow Brits because they are muslim), all people have to do is read your other posts.
This is what I am talking about."
"_AT_Milena: I follow about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter
Poor you, no wonder you are confused. But really Milena, stop being so silly. You know full well that given your circumstances, you are welcome to live and work in the UK. Clearly, you have failed to listen properly to what was said and are simply enjoying a self-pitying juvenile rant over imagined slights. In doing so, you choose to insult an elderly woman who has expressed entirely reasonable opinions that reflect her experiences of living in Rochdale. Are you so intolerant that you can?t be bothered to consider her concerns?
Rather than feeling sorry for yourself despite being well educated, well paid and living in just about the most inclusive country in Europe, you would do better to consider the outright hostility and prejudice directed at those of a different culture in your home country. Or virtually any east European country, come to that. Or would that be too much like reality for you?
Perhaps you just need to follow your own advice - to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something. Give a try."
"Dear Marina
I'm glad you've written this. I am British but I can understand the feeling of disenfranchisement from voting even though I vote ... let me explain ... I cast my vote, but the newspapers, TV, political blogsters, media in general (particularly those controlled by Murdoch and Tory leaning such as NOTW and Spectator) completely cut off mine and the opinion of 65% of population which are anti-bigots and anti-selfishness of those that are the richest people in the country. 65% is the percentage of people that do no vote Tory and therefore the majority of people (including me) are disenfranchised by the Tory leaning and in particular sensationalist Murdoch media. They block views that are not in their interest and give the impression that people are behind them, and try to manipulat and sway the electoral system. This time round, leading to GE 2010 we feel disenfranchised because the media, particulaly SkyN and Sun and NOTW and Daily Mail, have completely ignored policy and try to influence the outcome through stage managed and crass attacks on Gordon Brown, or Nick Clegg or anyone who does not fit in with Cameron/Osborne. We run the risk of turning into Bush's USA 2000-2008 controlled by the rightwing neocon section of Tories lead by their puppet Cameron.
The people need to stand up to Murdoch empire and their Tory mouthpiece, we have to come together to ensure that Tories do not win this election otherwise so many people, including Eastern Europeans and other perfectly lawful overseas visitors working here and the British people 65% of which will be disenfranchised. The anger and resentment will be so enormous and will create fractures in the fabric of society the longer the Tories are allowed to rule. And without electoral reform their task helped by Ashcroft and Murdoch empire will be complete, they will keep the FPTP electoral system and keep a stranglehold on the rest of us that don't want them. We need to make sure the voice of the majority British people and those people like Marina who live here and are also disenfranchised and feel opressed and unfairly treated in the way she describes vote properly and not be swayed by the scandal that is Murdoch's continuous mudslinging at Brown, of which bigotgate is the latest attempt. LibDem and Labour need to work together to keep the Tories out.
If there is any risk in a constituency that the Tory can get in, then left & liberal minded people need to make sure you vote for the party that is most likely to prevent them. This means in some places LibDem voters swallowing partisan pride and vote for Labour and vice versa. Where LibDem and Labour are marginals against each other, then the best chance to keep Tories out nationally is to vote Labour as it is the party that can get enough vote to block tories."
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"_AT_gkelly
""If you don't like the way the 60 million British people feel, think, speak and act, why don't you flock off back to where you came from? Then you won't have to put up with it any more.""
We don't think, speak and act like that, only the BIGOTS amongst us do."
"Saarfyorkshire, see my 2:01pm comment - we are agreed.
I speak as someone who employs E European labour, thinks they are great and wants them to stay. But I can see what it is doing to the working class who were already here."
"I bet there are more immigrants in Mrs Duffy's town from other parts of the world than there are from Eastern Europe and what's more, if some Eastern European stood and stared in Mrs Duffy's eyes she wouldn't be able to tell them apart from a Scot or Irish or a Yorkshireman.
I'm no mind reader, but I hazard a guess that what Mrs Duffy was really complaining about were the ""visible"" immigrants, those who look different, but she couldn't quite bring herself to utter the ""P"" word and instead plumped for the much less racist catch all term. So maybe she was actually trying not to sound bigoted.
Still it would be interesting to find out the immigrant profile of her town."
ps it's sad to see how quickly an immigrant has adapted to our contemporary british enthusiasm for grievance mongering, and uncontrolled hysteria whenever something offends one's me-me-me worldview.
"Bleedin' East Europeans... comin' over 'ere creating our jobs an' boosting our economy.
What about the pensioners, that's what I'd like to know. Oo'd pay all the taxes to pay our pensions if it wasn't for these flocking East Europeans?
Let's all go dahn The Strand ('av a banana)."
"You should direct your anger towards the racist press, not Mrs Duffy.
The right wing anti-immigrant press dominate the immigration debate with their hate-filled lies - Mrs Duffy is just repeating them."
Guardian, a new low.
Exactly. Brown called a little Englander a bigot and that is a scandal?
"edmundberk - in my book a bigot is somebody who not only has beliefs about ""others"" based on their place of orgin or ethnicity, but willingly believes and spreads every rumour that reinforces this belief.
That is all."
Please stop lying by claiming that immigration brings economic benefits to the country and that we owe all you immigrants a tremendous debt of gratitude for all the prosperity you are bringing. The lie has been debunked a thousands times, including by MigrationWatch and the House of Lords. It has been shown that you, in fact, reduce the incomes of the lowest earners by creating competition at the lower end of the wage spectrum. You immigrants are systematically impoverishing the British working class and you expect gratitude for it? You need to be earning 27K per year before you are making a net contribution to the economy and very few immigrants earn that much.
"Dear Milena,
You're not an immigrant. You're European, and have as much ""right"" to be here as I do. Gillian Duffy is just a woman who does not understand the changes that she sees around her, because those making the changes have not explained that they are positive changes. Just as Brown did not explain yesterday.
It would be nice if all countries could open their borders to all other countries, but the pace of change would be so very fast and destabilising that no one could explain it at all. Mass migration has to be managed, and making the places where people are born and bred into places where they can be happy and have decent lives is part of that too.
It would be wonderful if one fine day we could all have equal choice about the places in the world that we want to call home. But we're some way away from that right now. Sadly.
All best."
25% of Brits living abroad do manual or clerical work, not very out of the ordinary skills required there.
"The Guardian and liberal media have lost the plot on this. If you use a verb normally applicable to animals to talk about immigrants you are prime facie a bigot.
Brown actually went up in my estimation when he showed that in private he has little time for the sort of nasty narrowmindedness that lie behind such opinions.
We are not allowed to talk about immigration because the 'political elite' won't listen to 'ordinary people' but because the tabloid media has such a grip over the issue that there is no opportunity for ignorant people to be corrected."
"As someone who lived in the UK as an immigrant from 1986 to 2006, I hear what you're saying. I was able to vote, as a Commonwealth citizen. But being a less-obvious immigrant, sometimes blending in, had its own problems. Being assumed complicit in the generally-accepted body of opinion wasn't where I wanted to be, but being heard wasn't easy, either.
I did eventually leave, and return to Canada. And since I got back, the UK seems further away than it ever did, as I watch the tide of opinion which seems to wish to pervert everything I enjoyed while there, and those whose only goal seems to be to get out."
"Milena you are right!
Gordon Brown is also right.
In fairness, Gordon Brown stood up against prejudice in any Form.
Do not forgot the ?flocking? Brits in other European (and non European) countries
With very good salaries (more than 2 000 000 UK Citizens)!"
There's a lot you can do about this Milena- why not join a local political party which really does stand up for immigrants, from Eastern Europe or elsewhere? And while you don't have the vote at general elections, you do for the local elections and European Parliament equivalent if you're from another EU state. So if you're registered you can still vote on May 6th. Make sure you do so for a party that stands up for immigrants; those from other EU states who are just using the same rights to move around the EU that we have, and those from elsewhere who only come here because life's so crap where they come from - in many cases as a result of Western plunder in the past.
I was hoping Brown would come out after his 40 minutes in her house (curtains drawn, what did he have to do?) and say "Actually, yes, she is a bigot" and then go onto why we need people like our rightly hurt writer here. Why are all these foreginers here? Because too many of her neighbours are all watching Trisha during the day and quite frankly we need people to do the jobs and pay the taxes that keep them in the sloth they've gotten very used to... The problem here is that people are jumping on the It's OK To Talk About Immigration Now Bandwagon and can't see a bigot when one presents itself.
I'm not sure on this one but I suspect that being used as an election issue is something many Eastern Europeans are familiar with after all there are minorities and immigrants in their own countries who are used to being treated in such a shameless way.
"And so the leftist smear machine goes into its most vicious cycle.
The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting."
It was bigoted, and it is only the crazy political correctness of the right which refuses to acknowledge the fact, Labour should have stuck to their guns.
"_AT_Milena
""To those who didn't think it needed saying: If you don't speak up and tell your leaders that you don't buy what you're being fed by the tabloids, your leaders will only listen to the tabloids. It doesn't matter if you're a majority - if you're a silent majority it's as if you don't exist. Speak out, don't let things like this go unchallenged.""
I could not agree more with everything you have said, I can honestly say that my first thought yesterday was to find out what the women had said and once I heard I thought her a bigot, I have been saying all day to people at work about this and about your article and I people are looking at me as if I am insane, they just take the media line as it is the final word on the matter and believe every word the Daily Express feeds to them, its quite depressing that so many people hold these views and we need to tell them they are wrong and they need to educate themselves. Wake up people, stop watching *ucking X Factor and reading the Daily Mailspress and look around you at reality. BTW Charlie Brooker dissects the idiocy of the media brilliantly in Newswipe."
maximusmanc - to be honest I find the prospect of a Cameron led Tory government rather less scary than what we currently have which is the Murdoch empire trying to dictate to Cameron/Brown/Clegg AND everybody else. Tories are only a symptom of the problem. The right-wing press needs far more censure and less of an easy ride.
Well said Milena.
Racism is just fear. this debate needs opening up in an adult way _immigration does need controlling but also there needs to be more done to alleviate people's concerns and fears about the immigrant population we are human first English and Polish second . People who come here dont just take but also give-God I wish we could have an open and emotionally mature debate about this issue. I am English -My dad is Indian, my mother was Irish but i really only know what it is like to be English- and we need unity in this recession not division -It is quite scary that if the budget deficit got worse andt the recovery faltered -who would be scape goated. We all have to be better than this!!!!
"Just to say, I've never understood the antipathy towards immigrants in this country but that could be because i consider myself European and a citizen of the world rather than English. I suppose this makes me a bleeding hreated , chattering class liberal according to some...The xenophobia this country promotes in the narrow-minded press frustrates and saddens me. No wonder people are emigrating from the country in droves when you look at what a selfish society predominates - the countries people are emigrating to have a stronger sense of community and caring for each other.
I thought what Gillian Duffy said was out of order and it's depressing politicians have to kowtow to people whose opinions are informed by the Daily Mail etc
Please don't think we all feel this way."
"Spot on. The UK economy has benefited IMMENSELY by having guest workers such as yourself to do the jobs most of us are unwilling to do.
Attacking immigrants when there is a recession is just good old fashioned prejudice.
I thought Britain had grown out of that by now.
Obviously we haven't."
i registered to comment, that i had the opposite experience of twitter reading #bigotgate a flood of people (about 100 per minute) were commenting in various humorous ways about how bigoted she was, someone even set a profile up called GillianTheBigot and pretended to be her. It actually gave me hope that people in rural England might not be as bigoted as a vocal minority like Gillian the Bigot make it seem. I would point out at how succesfully Sky News managed to bury the actual footage that it took 10 minutes of scouring the internet to find the full footage which frustrated and disgusted me.
"My god, if this can upset you, you really need to get a thicker skin.
So she's a bigot. Don't ask me to apologise for her just because I was born here. Scratch back a few generations and it's mixed bag.
Move on girl, move on."
"In my case, they are my parents. They're from an earlier wave of immigrants from the Caribbean. I can't say I've noticed a reciprocal curiosity about us from the people from the accession states but it doesn't affect my general positivity towards their arrival.
Just don't ask me to holiday in their countries because I can guess at the reception I'd get."
"_AT_middleenglandlefty;
Perhaps a bulletin from your WASPish idyll, would do more to quell the passions of grimy norvern oiks, if you could point to an instance where 100s of 1000s of british emigres had resulted in wage deflation in the place they landed, as they were able to take lower wages due to the much lower cost of living back in blighty.
Because you know, then you might have the beginning of a point."
"There was a time when 99% of people in Britain were British born-and-bred, with no affiliation or loyalty to any other nation or culture. I appreciate those days are now in the past, but I don't recall ever being asked if I wanted to share my already over-populated country with millions of immigrants. Where people are asked if they want more immigrants, most answer that they do not, but governments tend to ignore this because it suits their political and economic ambitions to do so.
Allowing immigrants into any country can bring a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, and the indigenous population are the people who should decide if they want it and the extent to which they are prepared to accept it and which, if any, immigrants they are prepared to accept and on what conditions."
"The whole thing is a terrible misunderstanding.
Gordon actually only said she was a big-titted woman.
Nothing controvertial there."
"Why are so many people claiming that GD raised a 'valid point', on here and throughout the print and broadcast media? I've read the transcripts and listened to the exchange and I can't figure out what point she was trying to make. It's not exactly insightful to ask where Eastern Europeans are 'flocking' from.
The 'valid point' that the press has fallen upon is that there are far more people of eastern european origin living in this country than a few years ago. This is true. But what follows from that? In and of itself it means little. It has to be coupled with something else. Something like 'and they're taking all our jobs', which is arguable to say the least. Or 'and I just don't like it', which is pretty close to bigotry.
I don't think she meant ""all these eastern europeans are flocking here and I'm really grateful to them for the interesting cuisine and high quality work they do in building, plumbing and related trades. Not to mention the important work in business and the health service together with a substantial tax contribution to the exchequer. Ooh I just love living in a diverse outward looking country"""
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Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
"I didn't think I could add much to AllyF's excellent post, but here goes.
Milena, I'm sorry that you were so upset by Gillian Duffy's comments - if someone had been sounding off in similar circumstances about 'all those gays flocking in' I daresay I would have felt a little attacked myself.
But, really, if anyone is exhibiting a sense of entitlement, I'm afraid it's you. The article fair drips with it. I also think it's you who are being - breathtakingly - judgmental, making sweeping statements about 60 million-plus Brits.
You choose not to become a British citizen, though (from what you say) you have had the opportunity to do so, and you are, judging by your tax status, making a good living here, which suggests it might also be in your self-interest to do so.
Like it or not, our politicians are elected to represent those who are committed to the UK long term, either by being born here (of whatever race) or by becoming naturalised citizens. People who are on the electoral roll, in short. If you are - in effect - choosing to remain transitory, you can't reasonably expect the election to revolve around your interests.
I speak as a Brit who spends a considerable portion of the year (and a certain amount of tax) at my second home in Austria. I take an interest in what's happening politically over there, of course, but I don't presume to lecture my Austrian neighbours on what they should think or how they should vote. And I have met enough eastern Europeans - Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Russians and others - both here and in Central/Eastern Europe not to make silly generalisations about them."
"Well said Milena. Newsnight interviewed three people from Oldham, all of whom were also anti-immigration. I don't know if they were welected for their surnames. One was called O'Sullivan. Another was called O'Shea. The last was called Keane. The woman in question where all this has come from is called Duffy.
It is total hypocrisy for people called O'Sullivan, O'Shea, Keane and Duffy to be slagging off cheap migrants from poorer areas."
"thfc
""looneyfromcatford
I can't be bothered with you.""
How much f**king effort does it take to recommend a political party for me to vote for, eh?
You claim Gordon Brown and Labour hate me (yesterday you claimed Labour hate white people) so provide me with an alternative.
Cameron loves me, does he? Nick Griffin wants to save me, does he? Be good for me, would he?
I'm open to enlightenment and education always - I'm self interested enough to vote for someone who cares about me.
You made the original claim - suggest alternatives for us low skilled and semi-skilled workers.
CiF is nothing if not a soapbox in which we can have our say and attempt to influence and educate others - educate me."
I have sympathy for all the parties involved here - the writer of the article, Gordon Brown and Mrs. Duffy. To be fair to Gordon Brown, he did try to point out to Mrs. Duffy the fact that there are as many British people living and working abroad as there are Europeans living and working here, so it is a two-way thing. To be fair to Mrs. Duffy, she is probably worried that there are a lot of non-English speaking workers in this country who could be taking the jobs of British born people currently out of work (I myself have been in hotels staffed entirely by East Europeans, some of whom didn't understand English and got the orders completely wrong). Now Mrs. Duffy is probably wrong about this - as she herself I think acknowledged when she talked about British people getting benefits and not making an effort to get work - but you can't really blame her for thinking this. Brown was also right to talk about 'British jobs for British workers', i.e. that we should be educating and skilling our young people so that they are equipped and skilled for the jobs available in this country, and that we should be making sure that in the jobs market native-born Brits are not under-cut by foreigners willing to work for a pittance.
zedvictor1, you are quite objectionable. The irony of what you say is clearly lost on you, since YOU ARE THE ONE who is being Judgemental
What a wonderful over-reaction to one old woman's off the cuff remark. Maybe while we're off talking to immigrants about their (real) problems, maybe you could find british pensioner and ask them about their (also real) problems? You might even discover that what you call 'bigotry' is better described as 'fear'.
"as an aside, isn't it blackly comic that the sorts who once ranted about 'on yer bike' tebbit, now effectively argue that any working class person unhappy about their earnings being decimated, should get on a fecking plane.
come the revolution; the middle class left will be first against the wall."
I still don't get it, why do racists like gkelly read the guardian?! Why not pop over to the mail? It's still free, isn't it?
Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
That would be my WASPish idyll in Birmingham in an multi-ethnic area with a mosque 2 blocks away? With a Polish shop on the corner and 5 Polish families on my block? Can you point me to the lower wages, show me jobs where the wages are lower now?
"Saying your town looks like a 'third world country' just because there are immigrants is bigotted, as far as I'm concerned.
Of course, I doubt the right wing press would be defending her quite so much had see said West Indian instead of East European.
PS - How convenient it just happened to be a Sky News mic attached to him. Insert: X-Files Theme here."
"Can we first establish that there is the POSSIBILITY of too much immigration? Judging by some comments, it seems that this is impossible.
Once we have stablished there is such a possibility, then lets discuss:
How many immigrants do we want?
What kind of immigrants do we want?
What rights do immigrants have? The writer seems to whinge that she cannot vote in UK elections, is this reasonable?"
"As a British immigrant living in France where I also contribute to society by paying high taxes with no right to vote in general elections either in France or the UK (as a non-resident for more than 15 years), I completely sympathise with the writer.
Luckily France does not appear to put all immigrants in the same category as being either benefit scroungers or stealing jobs from the French. Maybe you should move here?"
"My wife is of Indian origin. Until she became a British citizen two years ago she had been an immigrant too. She came to the UK with her first husband her prime motive being to seek a better life and a good education her young son. Since arriving here she has gone out and actively sought work, at one point actually refusing benefits she was having pushed at her by a council worker who presumably thought she was being helpful.
She is a strong and resourceful person who did not dream of seeking funds for which she felt she was not eligible and hadn?t contributed towards. We have both met (and informed on) benefits cheats, some of whom were, yes East Europeans.
Mrs Duffy is not a bigot. She is someone who has worked hard all her life in the service of others and now sees the next generation in her view being cheated out of their birthright. If this is not true it is surely the job of those who seek political office to make this abundantly clear. She has an absolute right to express this concern.
Thank God she was able to do so to our Prime Minister. Thank God too he had the mic still on to further reveal his nasty, bullying and aggressive nature. This has reinforced to me that I still cannot return to voting Labour because it does not espouse the views it did before Bliar and Mandy got their grubby little mitts on it and turned it into NuLabor"
"A more pertinent question is: Why is the government paying so many indigenous people to not work?
This, of course, is why are there are so many vacancies for others to fill?"
Very true.
"Milena
You make a fundamental errors in your article. People's opposition to migration is not a personal criticism of you, or any other immigrant.
It is a criticism of our Government's policy on massive immigration. Mrs Duffy quite rightly put her criticism to the Prime Minister, not to you.
The second is that the presence of immigrants here en masse directly and adversly affect Mrs Duffy's life chances and especially those of her children, and grandchildren. Do you imagine you have contributed anything to their lives?
Nothing Mrs Duffy could do, or has done in more than 40 years of paying UK taxes has any ability to have a similar adverse affect on the people of Bulgaria. Quite the opposite.
Have you been to her home town? Do you fondly imagine that she has the money or resources to spend time or money twittering or sipping lattes?
What you haven't explained is why people should stand up to Gillian Duffy. Stand up so you have more rights than her and her family in her own country, and so you can take advantage a country that you have had no part of building, but she and her family had.
What arrogance!"
"This article is beyond parody....
This incidents shows that you can't have a discussion about immigration without being labelled a racist/bigot.... I used to think that wasn't true, that elements of the press were making it up.... but apparently not....
what Mrs Duffy wanted to know is why the immigrants she was referring to were here - not whether they should or shouldn't be here, but why? Why Rochdale in particular? She wasn't questioning their right... Can someone explain why that makes here a bigot as many on here seem to think? No one had bothered to explain that to her
and as for this pathetic idea that the word 'flocking' is somehow offensive - Jesus.... grow up, it's a commonly used word - crowds flock to see things in places all the time. This really is ridiculous"
"Broon was right to call her a bigot but only in private. It's not good protocol to be overheard saying it and he could have checked his microphone was turned off. I wonder if it had been a set up by Sky News. It's hilarious though.
To be honest, as somebody who used to go canvassing but not anymore, I used to get sick and tired of the bigots I met on the doorstep as it seemed to be those who had the time to chew the fat regardless of the weather and were more likely to be at home in the evenings. When it comes to the average person expressing their views on politics it's all me me me demanding the government and local council spend as much on their ilk regardless of anybody else. When it's pensioners they begrudge money spent on families even when getting enough and vice versa. It's a case of sour grapes and not wanting any other group to have more spent on it and it's a very short sighted attitude to take."
Well done for taking a stand! Immigration is without doubt a complex issue for this country. I completely agree, however, that there is a lack of discourse about what and how immigrants contribute to not only the economy, but also the culture. There's too much focus on the 'bad' immigrant.
I wonder, if Mrs Duffy had said, "and then there's the Pakis and the Muslims, where are they all coming from... " Would she have had the same support and Gordon the same derision from the media ? There is some sort of dreadful racist hypocrisy going on here, and Gordon's private reaction was a legitimate one.
"aanda:

I see you've fallen for Nu-Labour's pyramid scam. It's a numbers racket - keep waving the people in, working class wages get diluted, nobs in London have more coffee bars to prattle in and the value of housing stays high because there's such a queue. Bernard Madoff made millions like that. Go figger."
Milena I don't think you should have taken Gillian's comments personally. I understand your frustration as I live next door to two South African's who are teachers and contribute enormously to our society & economy without much in return in the way of benefits. However although I don't know her sources I suspect Gillian's comments are based on hearsay and information from her Social circle & local community as most of our experience is. So if you take the construction industry for example it is almost impossible for a British contractor to win contracts using British workers because they cant compete on price with those who use immigrant workers. Most ordinary British people who know trades people would probably confirm that. I also think that people believe these workers live in shared accommodation and send money home to their families taking revenue out of the economy. I suspect that most British trades people do not think that they can go to an Eastern European country and achieve the same results even though overseas work can be tax free. The word immigrant covers too broad a range to get upset by it being used as a sound bite and not put into context.
"Stevehill
it is yourself being crass because Brown was exercising his own right as a human being to vent off some annoyance, he is after all having to watch his owne every move because, unlike the very unscrutinised Cameron, the right wing press and Sky keep their beady eye on him with no let up, The press is so biased that he should be allowed to vent some anger in private. We all have to and he is no different. The Crassness is people saying that he has to have his own rights as a human being reduced, because in reality you say that he should have said it to her face .. really? well I think the media would have been even more cruel and not allowed and you would have said exactly the same thing. You just don' like Brown and letting that colour your judgement"
Yes what a conspiracy to allow a moron to forget he's got a mic on.
"Nope, we have had Alan Johnson, Andy Burnham and Madelson, among others confirming that they would very much like the vote of the working classes after all and that Mrs Duffy is most emphatically not a bigot.
Are you calling them liars ?"
"Good article.
This incident has been blown out of all proportion by the Tory press. Gordon Brown was right. This woman is clearly one of the 'silent majority' (bigots) who have ""concerns"" about immigration (translates to blaming their own failings on others) that the Daily Mail keeps bumping its frothing gums about. A majority that is in actual fact a minority.
The more Eastern Europeans/Immigrants there are in the UK, the better. The sooner the 'silent majority' are diluted out of existence, the better!"
"First, I didn't specify how the British people felt, thought, spoke or acted. Second, it was the author of the article herself who said that the British people as a whole were like Gillian Duffy:
""at being a cheap target for political point scoring because Duffy and the 60 million people like her have a vote""
The author clearly despises Gillian Duffy and the 60 million other people she believes are like her. Why live in a country full of people you despise?"
shoegirl03; great - now what has that got to do with gillian duffy?
"Carpentry
General builders
Scaffolders
Roofing
Plumbing
Bricklaying
Electrical
Truck Driving
Van Driving
Etc etc"
"I thought a lot about this yesterday - should I feel sorry for Brown or not? After all I would most likely have had exactly the same reaction. On it's own without any context it would be a bigoted comment. On the other hand a) I'm not a politician and I think the point was that he doesn't have his emotions in check, blames his staff and was (caught being) two-faced; b) Duffy referred to the flocking Eastern Europeans after speaking about the national debt, tax on her pensions and people scrounging off the State. She came across as an engaged and politically-interested voter in a world where most people are apathetic and not focused on issues. She's an elderly pensioner from Rochdale. I don't expect her to know the three pillars of the EU Single Market or to have a more complex analysis of the issues (maybe that's patronising on my part) so I don't think she's really a bigot. My grandmother who was the most generous person in the world was very uncomfortable with immigration into Ireland. I don't think that if you're elderly and suddenly the culture you have grown up with and lived with for decades makes a sudden shift, it's that surprising that you might comment on it.
I'm just happy that Nick Griffin will let me stay in Britain because apparently ""the Irish are really British anyway."" Fabulous! So much for hard-won independence."
If you want to get angry about slurs on immigrants, how about checking out the Labour party's manifesto, with its chapters headed 'Crime and Immigration' and its boasts about how tight their immigration control is? Or maybe it's just easier for you to pick on some misguided Lancashire pensioner who speaks for nobody but herself. Get over yourself, for goodness sake.
"Oh, grow a pair.
In common with everyone else here, you don't know Gillian Duffy. You don't know what she thinks or feels. You have the sum total of about twenty words to go on."
"This woman espoused what millions of Brits actually think, sadly.
I am not being superior and condescending when I say this, but I hear the same views espoused by the kind of people who read the Sun where I work. When you challenge their illogical, xenophobic views, they are obviously entirely unable to defend them. Because they are bullshit, plain and simple.
Just as people in enlightened nations in the year 2010 cling on to their medieval religions, people are much more comfortable with their blind prejudices. People really aren't interested in facts. If there are too many immigrants, it's because the elite, big business, wants them here. So they can pay them a pittance. Brits on the dole then have someone to hate, the elite have a scapegoat - instead of realising that they, the Brit on the dole, would be expected to do the same shit jobs for a pittance if the immigrants weren't here.
The shocking thing is, this has gone on for decades. The people who are the real enemies of the so called working class are big business and the banks. The political class, especially the Tory party. Tories who are in business make a huge profit from employing these flocks of immigrants, or ""outsourcing"" to foreign countries, sweatshops etc. But that's too much reality for the Union Jack wavers. They prefer the comfort of their blind prejudice, because facing up to what the real enemy is, the real things that have disenfranchised them, is too much to bear."
Why should someone who tells the truth apologise, and a bigoted old lady who is ranting about the people who help everyone's daily life not be made to apologise instead????
"Calm down and start thinking with your brains.
An ordinary, middle aged woman in the middle of her ordinary day is sucked into an enormous media circus. She is presumably not used to public speaking. She tries to express what she honestly feels, speaking off the cuff. How many of you who are shouting 'BIGOT' could have spoken coherently and to the point in that situation? Almost none I would guess.
The concern is not immigration per se, but the scale of immigration and the effects that has on social stability.
Mr Brown should have spent his time listening properly to her and responding/clarifying/arguing instead of creepily gushing about her coat, family etc only to slag her off behind her back."
"You haven't actually articulated what you found so offensive about what Mrs Duffy said. Perhaps because there wasn't anything to be offended by, but you wish to be offended.
You appear to think that immigration is a subject that simply cannot be raised. I find that extremely offensive. It is an entirely legitimate subject for debate. As it happens, I'm a keen advocate of a liberal immigration policy, but I will defend to the death the right of others to question that or indeed to vote for something different. Your view of what comprises free speech is very warped.
Your maths is very poor also. There aren't 60 million people in Britain who have the vote and there are a damn sight more than 200,000 immigrants.
I really have to question the Guardian's ethics in publishing this piece. It seems to be a hamfisted attempt to defend the indefensible, Gordon Brown's two-facedness and his unwillingness to engage with ordinary voters. However, far from you needing permission to have a view in the country to which you emigrated, you are getting the opportunity to express it on the webpage of a national newspaper. And that is the way that this country works. Mrs Duffy is entitled to her view and so are you. I have to say, hers seems at least as well-reasoned as yours."
"Just a thought - given that minorities, the Roma to name but one, are used for all sorts of nefarious political purposes in Eastern Europe I am sure most of the Eastern Europeans here have an insight to what is going on and how they are being used.
Still doesn't make it any less slimy."
"_AT_dogsvomit
""There was a time when 99% of people in Britain were British born-and-bred, with no affiliation or loyalty to any other nation or culture. I appreciate those days are now in the past, but I don't recall ever being asked if I wanted to share my already over-populated country with millions of immigrants. Where people are asked if they want more immigrants, most answer that they do not, but governments tend to ignore this because it suits their political and economic ambitions to do so.
Allowing immigrants into any country can bring a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks, and the indigenous population are the people who should decide if they want it and the extent to which they are prepared to accept it and which, if any, immigrants they are prepared to accept and on what conditions.""
Voting for the BNP by any chance?"
"My girlfriend is an Eastern European immigrant (probably from the same country as the author of this article - the feminine surname suffix would indicate as much). She was quite baffled by the furore especially due to the somewhat stupid question ""where are all these Eastern Europeans flocking in from ?"" - er... Africa perhaps ?
However, she also finds it odd that however much vitriol the right-wing press throw at her for her impertinence in legally coming here to work; no-one particularly seems to mind the fact that she's doing a very demanding and difficult job in social care for pretty disgraceful wages.
Oh, and if she wanted to live on benefits; they actually pay for a better standard of living in Prague than they do in London - so she wouldn't actually be here..."
"So who are the indigenous people of Britain? Or are you suggesting that unlike most other countries there is no such thing?
To quote a recent paper published in Prospect magazine:
""The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, after the melting of the ice caps but before the land broke away from the mainland and divided into islands.""
So basically if you are a white Brit the chances are you're lineage goes back thousands of years to people who lived here a very long time ago. Is that 'indigenous' for you? Or are you one of those who think that because we all came from Africa originally only Ethiopians can claim to live in their land of origin?
I think many white Brits are rather fed up of being told that we are such a 'mongrel race' that there is no such thing as indigenous and therefore no such thing as an indigenous culture worth protecting."
"Watching the full, unedited footage of his initial conversation with Gillian Duffy, for the first time ever, I have to say I agree with Gordon
""...all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?""
Er, just a wild guess here, maybe Eastern Europe?
By definition, bigotry is 'stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.' It's a strong word to use, but nonetheless Mrs Duffy's comments and demeanour can still be categorised in this way.
Counting Polish and Spanish nationals who live and work in the UK amongst my closets and dearest friends, I was struck by how quickly, stridently and irrationally Mrs Duffy steered the conversation towards the issue of immigration. Almost as if she would have made the same comments to whomever she happened to meet on the street that day. On this occasion it just happened to be the Prime Minister, followed closely by a camera crew.
Brown's unguarded comments were unfortunate - but only because it paints him as being irritable and two-faced, during an election that is being fought on style over substance. Mrs Duffy's comments were bigoted and Brown is entitled to think so. He's also entitled to say so, and should have done so there and then. But in the glare of the cameras had Brown challenged Mrs Duffy on her views, the press would have no doubt cast him as a 'bully' . He was in a lose-lose situation from the start, and the radio mic gaffe only made things worse.
The fact is, when politicians meet members of the public in spontaneous, unmanaged circumstances such as this, there is always the danger of being shown up. Nonetheless, Brown had the opportunity to stand up for his core beliefs and show Mrs Duffy's comments for what they were - bigoted. Brown would have won many more votes than he would have lost had he done so.
Mrs Duffy had a long career in public service and is entitled to express her opinion. But her opinion is utterly out of step with modern Britain, and our place in the EU. It is an opinion that is carelessly and callously repeated and distorted by the ring wing media. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people in the UK - shiftless, lazy and content to live on on handouts - are so mean-spirited towards hard-working, tax-paying immigrants."
"_AT_maxmimusmanc; I think a lot of people, including those outraged by what brown said, would sympathise with your point about his right to privacy, and to exercising his own prejudices within that context.
or would do if labour hadn't made us the most surveilled country in the free world, and cultivated a culture where people are increasingly liable to police harassment, sacking or even prosecution, for daring to express their thoughts."
"I have just caught up with this article and I am afraid I have not had time to read all the posts, so I must apologise if I duplicate some one else's response.
I would just like to ask Milena Popova how much immigration there has been into Poland these last ten years and how well Poland has coped with it"
"stairlift
""The woman's an OAP who did absolutely nothing wrong. You people are disgusting.""
""OAPs"" can be some of the most obnoxious and vile people you'll ever meet - basically, they are as they always were only a bit older. So no free pass there.
In Mrs Duffy's particular case she said something and plenty of people disagree and plenty of people agree. No one's requested for her to be shot for what she said or anything. Mrs Duffy is allowed her opinion and thoughts - as is everyone else."
"Oh please. Get a grip. Whether you agree that Gillian Duffy is a bigot or not, you should really save your energies for more important matters. This is a liberal and tolerant country with plenty of great people for you to mix with.
I would imagine you're far more like to be alienated for being such a cry-baby rather than an ""immigrant"""
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If I said "What about them East Europeans flocking here?", one of my friends would call me a bigot, what was wrong with what Gordon Brown said?
Like the previous comments say, don't be too disheartened a silent majority are good, well mannered and culturally aware.
"The header at the top of the page says 'Cif at the polls.' Judging from most of the comments here, 'Cif at the Poles' might be a more apt description.
Good piece - interesting perspective."
"FoucaultsNightmare:

The words were bigotted. She chose to say what she did. The words came out of her mouth. That makes her a bigot, in my book.
As DamnWymz says:"
"Well I was born here, and so was my wife (from a refugee family). I feel connected to those that were also born here and expect to take the rough with the smooth in terms of whatever life in the UK has to throw at us. Can we say the same of the many Eastern Europeans that have come here? They used to ""flock"" to Germany until Germany got fed up with them and couldn't find enough jobs for them. Now they ""flock"" here looking for an easier life and a fast buck while abondoning their compatriots. Mrs Duffy has a point about where they are ""flocking"" from too - millions have come here but they clearly don't all come from Poland, unless Poland has a bigger population than we are led to believe. Exactly where are they all coming from? Does the Government know?
Too many people are willing to call anyone that wants to see improved immigration control (and really that is all Mrs Duffy was referring to - she didn't insult those Eastern Europeans that are already here, even if you casually misunderstand the term ""flocking"") a ""bigot"". Fine. If that's what you think then be honest. If people that want to see immigration controlled are by definition ""bigots"" then by definition you must want the UK to have open borders. So be honest about it. Say ""The Labour Party should believe in open borders for the UK"". Shame other countries don't believe the same thing really. We could all upsticks and move to the Seychelles - all 6billion of us."
"Ally, once again my hat goes off to you.
That's the best post ever, from someone who makes a habit of posting the best post ever. I wish I had one tenth of your patience."
"Mrs Duffy was hustled in front of the Great One on the spur of the moment, I doubt whether she had a selection of debating points at hand. She, like thousands of other ""old ladies"" at the bus stop or in the pub simply took a moment to vent.
A savvy politician would have listened, nodded and then, once she had run out of steam picked up on any points worth answering. Instead Brown tried to treat the encounter as if he was at the Dispatch Box and came across badly."
"I blame cowardly politicians who aren't prepared to say to the electorate: 'you have a choice - we can reduce immigration or you can have a pension'.
We need working-age migrants. More please."
For seventy years British politicians were happy to deny the Soviets carried out the Katyn massacre. Mrs Thatcher's government refused to send a representative to the unveiling of the Katyn monument. My father who fought at Monte Cassino like thousands of Polish soldiers under British command was denied not only a British army pension but medical treatment for deafness acquired while serving in the artillery. Polish regiments were forbidden to march on military remembrance parades. The whole of Eastern Europe was surrendered to Soviet occupation at Yalta. Now, at long last a British politician privately stands up for Eastern Europeans and the world collapses around his ears. Gordon Brown, you have just won my vote.
does anyone actually know what the verb 'to flock' means?
"Because (a) she did not say anything bigoted and (b) because Brown is a servant of the people and had no right to label her in that way.
This lady expressed a legitimate concern shared by millions of Britons. Ignorant lefties label such people ""bigots"" and sometimes even ""racists"" for daring to question the lousy immigration policy foisted on them by this utterly dreadful New Labour government.
Then the chattering classes wonder why the BNP is gathering so much support from ordinary, moderate, British voters."
"hey farfetched. last I checked, Prospect was not a journal of human genetics.
If those figures are correct, there's one heckuva lot of inbreeding (homozygosity for you genetics fans) in these islands. Might explain some of these comments"
"Why hasn't anyone said the truth about this?
Since the pound has lost so much of it's value, and since the Polish government (Poles make up a large share of the immigrants) has encouraged skilled workers to return home, Poles have been leaving the UK in droves!
facts are sacred? more like ignorance is sacred....."
Both Gillian Duffy and Milena Popova are expressing feelings that they may honestly hold. Those feelings will be in part, shaped by the extent of their knowledge. I doubt GD is a bigot and I think MP seems a good person too. Isn't it all about communication ?
"If Gillian's kids or grandkids end up emigrating to Oz or anywhere else will they be on the receiving end of bigotted comments - or worse?
Isn't Duffy an Irish name?"
"A few observations from someone in the Netherlands whose partner is an expat Brit.
1. Many people went to the UK to work during the period when the UK was on an idiotic spending frenzy on money noone actually had. The GBP was the highest rated European currency. No wonder people from Eastern Europe came to the UK to work.
2. Mrs. Bigot complained about the fact that there are a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the service industry. Maybe she should ask the question why only people from outside the UK want to work in hotels and restaurants for shitty wages. If the service industry paid better wages, maybe more local people would work there.
3. Apparently everyone in the UK finds it perfectly normal that anyone with a British passport can work anywhere in the EU. A point that Gordon Brown pointed out very well to his credit. You can't have your cake and eat it. If at any point the UK wants to pull out of the EU maybe the EU should close it's borders to migrant workers from the UK.
4. Due to very unfortunate historical circumstances it has taken almost 50 years for the Eastern European countries to finally be able to be part of the EU. I think we should welcome every honest person that wants to work and pay taxes in another country within the EU."
"Surely people prefer knowing what a politician is really thinking rather than all the nicey nicey stuff.
I do."
"Nothing of the sort has been shown. What do you think would happen if migrant workers did not take jobs at the bottom end of the pay scale? Do you think companies would pay more, or do you think they'd be forced out of business by cheaper foreign competition, taking ""British"" jobs with them?
Whether you like it or not, we need migrant workers to compete with other comparative countries using the same labour, and with the developing world. I'm certainly no fan of wage levels for anyone below a decent living standard, but the only ways to prevent it are either fairer, more balanced living standards across the whole world or a dismantling of free-trade capitalism. Simply tinkering with immigration rules will not do it, and any politician who says they will is either an idiot or a liar."
I`m another one of those Polish immigrants: been here since 1945 and now a retired headteacher. And when people say "get used to it" or "get a thicker skin" when I get offended by bigoted and offensive remarks all I can say is that perhaps they need to take their own advice. You are bigots; get used to it
"Gad , I love the Guardian !
Millions of Brits , actually, are illiogical xenophobic Sun readers. How vile they must be ! Thank Gad for we, the enlightened ones, whom can show them the error of their ways by shouting at them a lot.
They will be grateful one day, surely."
"I am a Briton living in Poland.
Most months I earn just under the national average.
I cannot vote in presidential or parliamentary elections.
I am one of a handful of foreigners where I live and I do a job that cannot be done by a local inhabitant.
However, if I was joined by a few thousand other Britons and we started undercutting the local labour market, taking a lot of the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs, I would understand it if the Poles reacted negatively. I would not take it personally unless it was genuinely anti-British xenophobia.
You need to be able to seperate legitimate concern over the effect of open EU borders on communities (both in the UK and places like Poland) from simple xenophobia, which does exist.
From what I have seen, the woman involved in this controversy appeared to express the former and not the latter.
Your comment about 'decaf skinny latte' is revealing. It is exactly the type of peope who would order a 'decaf skinny latte' who benefit from Eastern European immigration. At the risk of making a gross generalisation, I doubt that too many people living on Mrs. Duffy's Rochdale housing estate are frequent imbibers of 'decaf skinny lattes.'"
"A passionate response to something insufficient people consider.
The temptation to ignore people with such odious beliefs, or to assume that they stand alone and are of no meaning, is strong. I don't usually want to be around them long enough to challenge, correct or confront their views. I force myself to do so, however, as silence is all too often taken as agreement. The casual (ignorant) assumptions made about large groups of people are in some ways more dangerous than the actively malicious ones. Malice is far more likely to be noticed and exposed.
So, yes. Gordon Brown called a bigot 'a bigot'. If he'd done it to her face, he'd even get a gold star. If we could move on from the shock of ""PM gets something right"" and start addressing the very real issues this country has, including misconceptions about immigration, I would be very grateful.
Thank you for caring enough to want to explain this to people, and for doing in such a beautifully written way."
"farfetched
""I think many white Brits are rather fed up of being told that we are such a 'mongrel race' that there is no such thing as indigenous and therefore no such thing as an indigenous culture worth protecting.""
To be fair, very few white Brits could actually lay claim to hearing this on a regular basis - that is, it's not like everyday I walk down the street and someone shouts out ""Oi! You - mongrel race boy""
No one has ever questioned my right to be in this country,genetic heritage or anything. (It's possible we have some Eastern European Jewry in my families gene pool - certain there's a bit of Scots in there as well. Do I care? I don't give a flying f*** - who my ancestors shagged 400 or 4000 years ago means nothing to me)
People in, say, Devon can't claim to be ""fed up"" by this, that much, surely? More likely they are ""fed up"" by council tax rises and lack of parking and dog shit on the beach and that kind of real world stuff."
I think the issue with brown is not that he called her bigoted or that he felt that she was bigotted as he is entitled to his opinion but the two faced nature of being friendly to her and even praising her coat and going to call her names straight after. I am an immigrant myself but understand that immigration is an important issue for any elections and is of particular concern with the British today especially following abuse of the social services by some migrants and the employment crisis. Brown's two faced nature would make one query on weather he really cares about people's worries and concerns or if he's just pretending. Sadly though that is the nature of politicians. I think the writer here took things too harsh really. Mrs Duffy did not incite violence against Eastern Europeans and was simply raising her concerns. She seemed to have been satisfied with Gordon's explanation on how the British too migrate and work abroad so I don't think she really meant any harm and was simply raising concerns for her community. In Eastern Europe there is a lot racism against black migrants so I am sure that even the writer recognises that worst concerns exist in their country over migration.
"If you consider the phrase:
""... and what about all these east Europeans, where are they flocking from?""
to be a bigotted remark, you need to get out more. At worst, it's a hypothetical question, perhaps grammatically suspect and undoubtedly geographically illiterate. But bigotted?
Get a life."
I vote labour coz i'm a labourer like me dad and me mam duznt.
Keep your chin up Milena not everyone in this country has the same atitiude as Mrs Duffer. She's obviously forgotten about historical facts like the Polish pilots who flew over British skies during WW2 during the Battle of Britain. That aside though most people in this country have the arrogant view that this island is the centre of civilisation in the world. I knew someone like that they described a Slovakian friend of mine as being from, " A backward country". They are not to be listened to or acknowledged, they are just showing their ignorance of European history and indeed the geographical location of the countries concerned. They don't realise that Bratislava for example is right next to Vienna and is equally steeped in culture. The likes of Mrs Duffy get their impressions of Eastern Europe from anti-communist propoganda from the past and impressions created by British television that the peoples of Eastern Europe are all scuttling about in horses & carts running scared from vampires. So please don't be upset, I think Mrs Duffy has made a bigger fool of herself than Brown ever could.
"_AT_middlenglandlefty; if you call yourself middle england lefty don't be taken aback when people imagine you are a middle england lefty.
as for wage deflation; if you have never watched or read the news over the last 7 years, I am not going to provide a digest service for you.
I suggest you tune into the radio, news bulletins since the incident have featured testaments from people interviewed into the street as to the effect on them.
But as an act of good faith, here is one source - a govt one - pulled off the first page of search results I got.
I haven't got time to read it all myself as I have to go out right now, but the google hit was on a passage talking of wage deflation in segments of the economy where migrants have featured in a substantial way
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82we14.htm"
"Firstly, look up the words bigot and flocking. She did not cast aspersions on East Europeans or demand that they be sent home (unlike the ghastly BNP), she asked where they were coming from, and the Prime Minister, just like you have done, unjustifiably branded her a bigot for it.
Are you so absorbed in your sense of self-pity that the moment anyone questions whether a surge of hundreds of thousands of workers into the country was a good idea, you label them a bigot and start rambling about how much more of a citizen you are? Does it not occur to you that a pensioner in a northern constituency might not know about the principle of freedom of movement that is central to EU membership, and might be bewildered by a change to the neighbourhood she lives in? Apparently not. Instead you post this awful article, the basis of which seems to be that you aren't getting enough love on the social networks.
And as for your disenfranchisement, you do know that, after being in the UK for a certain period of time, you can apply for citizenship, and with it, the right to vote?"
"_AT_Allyf
(I hate this sort of comment, but ..... )
Very well said."
"I respectfully disagree with you.Bigot was far too strong a word to describe Gillian Duffy.If we call everyone with the slightest zenophobic sentiment a bigot we normalise the words usage and it loses it's power.
What do we call Nick Griffin or historic bigots like George Wallace (Alabama, US) or PW Botha (SA) ? It's a horrible word we should reserve for those who hate.
Mr Brown is deeply two faced he could have disagreed with her.Instead he was laughing and smiling and acting like he liked her and was interested in her family and it's wellbeing.Once he was in his car he ranted away as if she was the devil,he also gave the impression she was dirt and he should not have been made to endure her company.He also blamed it all on his female PA which is common form for him.
You won't find many people having a go at Duffy because Brown has so many more nasty traits than her and is deeply despised in Britain.
I hope you do not find anything else in this election so upsetting."
"I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. I didn't think Brown did that bad talking to her. She left happily enough and although inarticulate she said nothing bigoted. She was merely voicing concerns on a range of issues. This was a non story until Gordon lost the plot.
Brown created this storm because he believed it was a disaster when it really wasn't. At most you could argue he did pretty badly with a woman but did convince her to vote."
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"Wow ! I watched the piece on TV and found nothing untoward about her anxieties.
You must be a very ,very sensitive little flower.
Or is it just another Guardianista defence of Gordon?
Certainly working overtime today at Guardian HQ."
Thank you for writing this. I live in the US, and am married to an immigrant, and he is consistently disheartened at the appalling anti-immigrant sentiment he faces in this country. It's sad to see that things are no better for immigrants in the UK, and I agree that it was ridiculous for Gordon Brown to have to apologize to Ms. Duffy, and terrible that no sensible person could speak up and defend his remark.
Sorry but this a free country and Gillian Duffy is right that we need to deal with Immigration i am sick of left wingers whinning and attacking anyone who has a just concern. It is not racist to want decent border controls for your country . We need a referundum on he EU then we can really start to deal with it. So if you don't like it maybe its time to leave and while you at it could you invite a load of Guardian readers and that annoying Polly Toynbee with you?
Stupid stupid article
"Oh dear, I think this is probably the most pathetic piece I've ever read, online or elsewhere.
I was particularly struck by the idea that the author is angry at the people ""won't stand up to"" Gillian Duffy. The woman is an ordinary member of the public, not a politician or any other kind of public figure, so there is no reason to subject her to any kind of interrogation or thought policing. She happened to be out, buying some bread, and she ended up being asked on camera what she thought about things. She is not some kind of eminence gris, a murky power behind the Labour throne., she is simply a fairly run-of-the-mill person.
Secondly, if anyone seriously thinks that asking ""Where are all the Eastern Europeans flocking from"" is ""unacceptable"" by any criteria other than a dislike of tautology, then 1) who are they to decide what is acceptable? and 2) they are clearly leading very sheltered lives. Go into almost any pub and listen to lower-middle-class or working class white people discussing immigration and you will hear things far less ""acceptable"" than that.
These people are the ones who decide elections; get over it."
That's a list of trades, interestingly a list of trades that I know many people who work in so I can tell you that in Carpentry, Electrical work and Plumbing, the rate has not dropped at all for the tradesmen I know, including my son . Now can you point me to actual evidence that supports the drop in wages in those industries?
"As far as I'm concerned, Gordon Brown's mistake yesterday was to make an utterly spineless apology, instead of standing by his belief. He thought she was bigoted, therefore he was right to be angered by her.
Also, I agree with GuardianGoon."
"_AT_kenbarlow
""Flocking"" - it's when you put up red and gold wallpaper, and the red bit feels all soft and fluffy"
"I'm proud of Gordon Brown. I don't think he needed to apologise.
The more people call out xenophobia and bigotry the less strength it has.
More power to the brave who will stand up to it.
Milena, you're not alone. Don't take it to heart!"
"Yes, maybe she was bigoted. However, if she is a lady who has worked all her life, paid her taxes and then gets piss all for it when she retires wouldn't you be slightly annoyed? I have an immigrant background myself, but it is slightly disgruntling when you come to the realisation that you work for free for the first 10 days of every month and then get taxed on top at every opportunity and still have to pay for the dentist/prescriptions etc etc...whilst a 21 year old and her troop of kids or family from country XYZ have everything for absolutely FREE and work off the books on top!
I also agree that some areas of employment would collapse without immigrants...lets face it a large proportion of immigrants do the work nobody else wants or where ""natives"" are too good for those jobs or just plain lazy. - Everbody thinks they're Posh and Becks Syndrome.
...let alone that all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of nationality, citizenship or contribution, would be political suicide.
I agree but lets not ignore the contribution bit in financial terms at least, seen as we have a huge debt hanging over our heads hey, I mean, a vast amount of money is dished out every year for those pesky non-contributors, immigrants and ""natives"" alike.
Yes yes, before all those ""They can't help it if there aren't any jobs and everybody has a right to be a part of society"" people freak out....I'm not attacking the unemployed, I'm talking about those that feign illness, lie about their income, work off the books, go on holiday every year despite no EARNED income, basically those that are just bloody bone idle yet are having a comfortable fully paid for existence!
Sure, everybody has a right to be a part of society, but that doesn't come without responsibility. It shouldnt't be take take take, there has to be some give."
"I was really saddened to read this. I guess among the twittering classes we take a couple of things for granted:
1. Bigoted people are not very intelligent so we don't really take their views seriously - no-one would have felt the need to call it for what it was;
2. In a world where smart people can travel to another country and work there (i.e. any world of the last 10 000 years), less bright people will lose out and politicians really need to listen to them even though there's not really a lot they can do for them. Except maybe improve education and opportunities.
So the real issue people were reacting to wasn't the bigoted comment - that was really background noise, a kind of known constant. It was Brown's failure to call it for what it was. If he had had any personal courage he could have openly had the conversation with her that he probably had later in private - realising that behind the ignorant and uninformed comment there was doubtless a real person with real concerns. If he had had the personal integrity to hold to the same views in public as he expresses in private, he would have shown himself to be the sort of person who could be chosen to lead this country. He didn't so presumably he isn't.
Thanks for the wake-up call. I have many Zimbabwean friends who are here under a range of circumstances and it is all too easy to take their situations and struggles for granted. To forget the lingering pain that even small flashes of prejudice can cause. To assume that they always know what ""we"" already think when one of the uninformed masses starts on the familiar ""they come over here..."" rant. We've simply heard it too many times to hear it."
You obviously haven't been paying attention. Even the Guardian admitted this in an editorial not long ago.
"Yes, maybe she was bigoted. However, if she is a lady who has worked all her life, paid her taxes and then gets piss all for it when she retires wouldn't you be slightly annoyed? I have an immigrant background myself, but it is slightly disgruntling when you come to the realisation that you work for free for the first 10 days of every month and then get taxed on top at every opportunity and still have to pay for the dentist/prescriptions etc etc...whilst a 21 year old and her troop of kids or family from country XYZ have everything for absolutely FREE and have undeclared income on top!
I also agree that some areas of employment would collapse without immigrants...lets face it a large proportion of immigrants do the work nobody else wants or where ""natives"" are too good for those jobs or just plain lazy. - Everbody thinks they're Posh and Becks Syndrome.
...let alone that all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of nationality, citizenship or contribution, would be political suicide.
I agree but lets not ignore the contribution bit in financial terms at least, seen as we have a huge debt hanging over our heads hey, I mean, a vast amount of money is dished out every year for those pesky non-contributors, immigrants and ""natives"" alike.
Yes yes, before all those ""They can't help it if there aren't any jobs and everybody has a right to be a part of society"" people freak out....I'm not attacking the unemployed, I'm talking about those that feign illness, lie about their income, work off the books, go on holiday every year despite no EARNED income, basically those that are just bloody bone idle yet are having a comfortable fully paid for existence!
Sure, everybody has a right to be a part of society, but that doesn't come without responsibility. It shouldnt't be take take take, there has to be some give."
"_AT_ JeevanVasagar:
_AT_mattseaton

Christ, that's pretentious. I feel like I've stumbled into a sixth-form poetry club. Matt, I can't believe you're encouraging him.
Here's another angle. Birds are beautiful, delicate creatures, blessed with the gift of flight. Flocking is a communal movement for them. This is a good thing."
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Crikey I thought the whole thing was amusing in general. If there is so much offence taken at a fairly mild rebuke it's a damn good job you can't hear me ranting at my PC screen at some of you lot.
Birds do it, sheep do it, even educated peeps do it, let's do it, let's flock to Rochdale...
"iMark

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Netherlands place restrictions on the amount of Eastern Europeans who could come to work in the Netherlands?"
"I think that Gordon Brown was right to call her a bigot, I personally think that Gordon Brown has shown himself in a good light.
Don't feel to disheartened, I think a silent majority are happy that we live in a multicultural society."
"Milena you qualify for citzenship so why not apply then you'd get to cancel out Mrs Duffy's vote (bit late this time though - sorry. Mind you she said she wasn't going to vote). Or are you asking for votes for economic migrants like yourself?
Like they do in Bulgaria.
Er they do don't they?"
Milena, I do not know from which Eastern European country you hail from, but do you also cry when you see how your gypsies are treated in their own countries by the majority of your people and governments?
"my my - how the spin has worked,,,
may we remind ourselves of the issue at heart here?
it was Dear Leader placating and vote smarming a stated loyal party voter in one breath,,,
then behind her back slagging her off thinking he was out of earshot
it was his blaming of a staff member because he didnt like the way a conversation went when in fact it was a piece of cake
it was his statement of apology on radio of 'IF I said,,,'
it is being caught again being dishonest
that is the issue
not immigration"
"There is a massive difference between the statement 'does polices on immigration have effects' and 'those eastern europeans flocking here where did they come from' . 'You cant say anything about immigrants these days' , thats the language of alf garnet that we all thought we'd left. Talk about the polices, but don't blame the people or infer that they get preferential treatment because they're immigrants.
Then again watching the news it was difficult to actually hear what mrs duffy had said, and I could accept she perhaps would have preferred not to have used those words, so of course we got the press saying ' a woman raised the issue of immigration' and brown called her a bigot.
No, she used language that wouldnt be allowed on tv anymore because it is bigotted and was called a bigot.
We also dont know the conversation that started whilst talking about australia do we?"
"Was it bigoted or just ignorant I'm not sure. But the media bandwagon and twittering that follows was certainly out of order.
More people should stand up for the value incomers bring to the UK (I'm married to one - I would say that). People who begin sentences with ""you can't say anything about..."" should be challenged very hard - the issue isn't whether or not you can say it, but whether or not you should hold that view, spoken or not - Gillian Duffy is the one who needs to go talk to an immigrant.

Be careful of seeming to court a sympathy vote. You came here because it offered something you couldn't get at home (I'm guessing).
Fortunately for you our political system is such that 90% of Brits have ""no voice"" either.
But as far as I am concerned you are welcome to keep flocking here - and if all the bigots could flock off somewhere else, that would be all the better."
"The BNP is getting votes because the issue over lack of housing has been hijacked by the 'YOUCAN'TTALKABOUTIMMIGRATIONWITHOUTBEINGCALLEDRACIST!' lobby in the Tory press and various shock jock radio shows.
The issue is housing and how Labour have perpetuated this lack to fuel the property boom. The anti immigration lobby is one built up by the Tory press to gain them working class votes, in the way anti Semitism and gypsy sentiments have always been used by monarchists and clergy as scapegoat tools. Unfortunately, the BNP capitalizes from it, an undesired outcome for the Tories.."
"Birmingham is the middle of England.
Thanks for providing me with more ammunition, the publication refutes the impact of immigration on wages. Cheers for that."
"The author is either too emotionally sensitive for his own good, or is pretending to be in order to manipulate the feelings of readers.
Being thick-skinned is a good thing, I would think."
"Oh do pull yourself together (stiff upper lip and all that old stick). She didn't express a desire for mass deportation. Don't try and guilt trip the population because they didn't engage in a counselling session with the barrista in Starbucks.
She was expressing a genuine concern of hers, probably exacerbated by reading the Mail or the Express. And there, in front of her is the one man who could give her an answer (of which I thought he did a reasonable job).
Not everybody lives and works in the middle-class well educated liberal left-wing press and you'll probably have to come to terms with that. Next time you are out, why not ask someone about their likes and dislikes of living in Rochdale. Listen. don't judge. And maybe you'll learn something."
The great thing about the global economy is that if you don't like us you can go elsewhere.
"So Gordon was spot on. There are bigoted people out there and some, it seems, have even found their way to CIF.
Ok bigot's, here's my challenge to you: 'Look back at your own family history, and discover where you originated from. Better still, get a DNA test whoch will define, beyond arguement, your continent of origin.
If you think you are 'white British', think again Nimbys ;-)"
"And dig, dig, dig. The Guardian has to pull somebody out to slur Mrs Duffy. I'm surprised Charlie Whelan and Alistair Campbell weren't digging through her past as soon as the first reports of Brown's error came to light.
Not articulate in the ways of metropolitan Guardianistas, maybe. Bigoted, not. Did Mrs Duffy say, all these Eastern Europeans are scum and I hate them and they're no good and they should be sent back? No. She was, in her own flustered way, expressing the view that mass immigration has an impact on resources and that it needs to be addressed (which clearly makes her a bigot in the eyes of most pathetic Guardian readers).
Bigot is one of the most overused words by people who populate this forum; many are akin to Rick in the Young Ones, who shouted ""FASCIST"" at anybody whose views were different to his. Ridiculous. Grow up the lot of you."
This article (and an alarming amount of the comments) are hysterical guff of the same magnitude as the Murdoch media's efforts to make a story out of this in the first place.
Brown's comment on Duffy made me finally warm to him.
This is unfortunately going to be something like the 500th reply, but Milena, you are absolutely right. Like you I'm a long term immigrant, like you I'm European so it's not immediately obvious, and like you I've put a heck of a lot more into Britain than I've got out of it. And like you I'm sick of the lazy slobs who can't look at a problem long enough or deep enough to figure out the real cause but go for the easy blame the immigrant option. And I'm sick of the attitude that I need permission to have an opinion on something happening in what is now my country. I'm abroad at the moment so I've missed the full force of this storm in a teacup but it seems to me that the lady in question was complaining about some failures of social services, yet, despite the fact the guy who has held the nation's purse strings for the last 13 years and is thus responsible for much of what she was complaining about was stood in front of her, she launched out on East European immigrants, presumable because in her mind they were to blame. So, Milena, if you ever get an apology from La Duffy, you will let us know?
"""Yesterday I stared alternately at my screen and keyboard in complete and utter paralysis, while inside I was raging. At one point I actually genuinely broke down in tears and great heaving sobs.""
Mmmm, This scenario might well be played out again at future point in the story of immigration to this country. Ms Popova has just been advised that her job has been given to a Rumanian at half the salary. Where indeed will they be flocking from in ten years time ? Even less when the financial disaster that this country faces really kicks in.
However benign you may feel about embracing all these hardworking, affable folk who are permitted by EU law to come to these shores there is a limit to the elasticity of our social space and social services and my concern is also for the million or so British youngsters who with a period of severe austerity looming will probably never find work nor be able to reciprocate and take up employment in other countries.
Gordon Brown used this emigration quid pro quo to ease Gillian's Duffy concerns, not to any great effect as we could see. It would have been more to the point if Ms Duffy had also mentioned the million illegals who not having the benefit of an EU passport will be sent back (if they are ever found, of course) And if Clegg gets his hands on a lever or two they will all be home and dry.
Don't blame Gillian Duffy for the problems for the madness of Labour's immigration policy, the outbursts from her and Brown were a were the direct result of of them. Brown says British jobs for British people, then we get the results in. Immigrants take 81% of new jobs.
Immigration has been the most important feature of the last 13years and the least discussed. Labour broke the most basic rule of the democratic process: the electorate was never told it was voting for that.
So Ms Popova forgive us if you appear to have been thrown in at the deep end,
as with the Lisbon Treaty and scores of other policies this country or at least many parts of it are hurt, bewildered and damn right annoyed that this shambles of a government is about to depart office with such a mess on the carpet."
"My boyfriend was deported this week. He had been working here and paying tax and national insurance, and had never claimed, or even attempted to claim, a single benefit from the state. Eventually, after much battling, he was denied leave to remain here.
The tax that he had paid was spent on the legal battle that the Home Office had with him to make him leave, on the flight they unecessarily paid for for him to go home as they decided he hadn't managed to leave quickly enough himself, and on the few days before his flight that he spent inhumanely locked in an immigration detention centre with no warning and not even any clean clothes after they'd decided, with no justification, that he might abscond - which he wasn't going to do. Given that there had been no flights for the previous week due to the ash cloud and the final decision that he had to leave was only made the week before, I'm not sure how he could have left of his own accord really, even if he didn't have several years of his life to pack up and ship cross-continent.
I will probably never see him again and I will miss him desperately. He has only ever been a contributor to society, and that contribution was entirely wasted because he was an easy target to remove in their pre-election box-ticking exercise. You hear complaints about how much tax-payer's money is spent on removing unwanted immigrants, but I have direct experience that much of this is entirely wasted. If my boyfriend had been allowed to finish packing and leave voluntarily, he'd have done so with dignity and it would have cost them several thousand pounds less in the process. It's futile, and it ruins the lives of British citizens like me as well as the immigrants who no one seems to want here, but who often give more to our society than many home-grown people who haven't been brought up with the same work-ethic.
Thanks for writing this article. The 'bigots' seem to forget that these are 'people' as well as 'immigrants'."
Or is this the beginning of the " blackening" of Mrs Duffys name by a labour spin machine.?
Go back to your Daily Mail comic.
Well said. Bigotry is bigotry, whether held by the populace or elites.
I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much Milena, and don't take it all so personally. Identity and nationality are just ideas; people have been complaining about 'hoards, swarms, or floods of immigrants' since the year dot, since before the media started spinning it to score points and sell copy , and not just in the UK. Most people who claim to be a 'real' Brit have no idea of their own family history- I've got a British passport but a Russian great-grandmother, French grandfather and my Dad's family is Scottish... not saying I'm special. In fact, it's probably completely unexceptional. If we all did a bit of digging, we'd find that our ancestors come from all over and have been mixing genes for centuries with abandon. Elections and times of economic uncertainty bring out the worst in everyone- and zenophobia is the kneejerk reaction of the uncomprehending. Meanwhile, ordinary folk will carry on regardless, as always.
This is unfortunately going to be something like the 500th reply, but Milena, you are absolutely right. Like you I'm a long term immigrant, like you I'm European so it's not immediately obvious, and like you I've put a heck of a lot more into Britain than I've got out of it. And like you I'm sick of the lazy slobs who can't look at a problem long enough or deep enough to figure out the real cause but go for the easy blame the immigrant option. And I'm sick of the attitude that I need permission to have an opinion on something happening in what is now my country. I'm abroad at the moment so I've missed the full force of this storm in a teacup but it seems to me that the lady in question was complaining about some failures of social services, yet, despite the fact the guy who has held the nation's purse strings for the last 13 years and is thus responsible for much of what she was complaining about was stood in front of her, she launched out on East European immigrants, presumable because in her mind they were to blame. So, Milena, if you ever get an apology from La Duffy, you will let us know?
She could have done this after 6 years. So it's a bit rich to complain.
"Edmund
""as an aside, isn't it blackly comic that the sorts who once ranted about 'on yer bike' tebbit, now effectively argue that any working class person unhappy about their earnings being decimated, should get on a fecking plane.
come the revolution; the middle class left will be first against the wall.""
But plenty of working class people have got on a plane.
What do you want government to do about it?
Come the revolution the working classes will burn down TESCOS, O RLY? This'll be the same working classes who flock to Tescos, will it?
There will be no revolution*. There will be more TESCOS
*at least not until after any total global collapse has made national governments irrelevant."
"Secondly, Brown did not accuse her of being a bigot to her face, he did it in private. Because, contrary to what these people say, the truth is that you CAN'T accuse an anti immigration sentiment holder of being a bigot, you have to nod in sympathy and gently agree with them, especially with the Sky journalists in tow (if you're a politician).
Knowing how Brown feels privately has actually endeared him to me, although I still think New Labour are a bunch of ****s"
"The other thing I don't think the author gets is that Gordon Brown did stick up to her, he mentioned that there are also British people staying abroad.
For him to just go and insult her for what I personally didn't find a very bigoted comment, that would be bigotry, not being prepared to countenance or discuss a view different from your own is the definitition of bigotry.
As for this 'flocking' crap, just because the literal translation of something is insulting doesn't mean the word in the common understanding is. People who think Gordon Brown is a twat, don't literally mean he's a vagina with legs and people who say flocking in relation to immigration aren't describing immigrants as animals."
"This is exactly the kind of patronising, nanny-knows-best-and-your-a-bigot-if-you-disagree attitude about immigration that is alienating Labours core vote.
If you think it is just indigenous 'bigoted' whites that are concerned about immigration, think again.
Up until about a year ago, I had fallen for this rubbish, hook line and sinker. Concerns about immigration=bigotry.
Now I recognise it for what it is.
A deliberate and calculated attempt to create a thought crime."
And it it those very same people that are vehemently in favour of mass immigration. So explain to me how it came to be that the so-called "liberal left" came to be on the same side as big business and the banks?
"You're having a laugh right?
Why is it that the opinions and feelings of the liberal left appear to have more importance than others? They espouse equality and inclusiveness, but it seems that this inclusiveness only extends to things that they agree with.
An ordinary person espousing an honestly-held view by asking a question, inciting no-one to do anything, discriminating against no-one. She asked about the number of eastern European migrants coming to the UK but, at no time, did she give her reasons for asking.
Even if she is a bigot, even if, why is she not allowed to hold a view that you may not agree with?
Some people find it bigoted for you to believe that fox-hunting is right. Some people think it bigoted for you to believe that fox-hunting is wrong. Just because somebody disagrees with you, does not make them a bigot.
Having an opinion is not criminal, people should not be demonised for what they honestly believe, even if you find their beliefs distasteful.
One day, your own liberal views may become very unfashionable and see you demonised for holding them. Whilst they seem perfectly reasonable to you, they may be ""off-message"" to those in power and then you've got a bit of a problem. Look at the Stalinist USSR, or Nazi Germany if you want examples.
Have enough confidence in your own views that you can accept the fact that others may not share those views - otherwise this persecution and demonising of ""non-believers"" is the thin end of a wedge. Whatever happened to ""even if I disagree with what you say, I will fight with my life for your right to say it"".
The only ""bigots"" here are those who seek to demonise this woman for asking a question. It was they who presumed the intent - and the mindset - behind the question, an intent never stated by Gillian Duffy.
My point is that if we are truly liberal, truly inclusive, and seeking true equality then this equality extends to tolerating beliefs which we may not like, much less agree with.
Otherwise, we are just totalitarian fascists who clothe ourselves in liberalism - the worst kind of all."
No, its the other side of the coin, not everyone agrees with you.
By so much you mean a couple of percent presumably? UKIP and BNP have barely registered a flicker in this election.
"This whole controversy is ridiculous, as is your article. If you did ""actually genuinely break down in tears and great heaving sobs"" purely because a woman asked where Eastern Europeans are flocking from then I don't think you should give the Guardian permission to put your blogs on CIF.
What she asked wasn't bigoted. You (and Gordon Brown) could be excused for assuming she is bigoted. It wouldn't surprise me if she was. But just because she was concerned with immigration you break down and cry? You need thicker skin my dear.
Brown shouldn't have apologised. We've all said bad things about people we've just met and didn't actually mean. Especially when under pressure or facing hostility. He didn't mean to say it to her face. It's just the media trying to make a big thing out of something the vast majority don't really give a shit about.
I realise this might be coming across slightly hostile, but I don't mean to be personal or rude. I would feel guilty if you cried."
"I sympathise with the article. According to the last research i saw on this, immigrants tend to be net contributors to our economy, not the spongers that some would claim. And if one is a hard-working, higher-rate taxpaying, EU citizen living in the UK, it must be pretty galling to be regularly characterised in the media as being unwanted, illegal, etc etc etc.
But I don't think it helps to call Mrs D a bigot. Governments have consistently failed to explain the benefits of immigration. more importantly, mainstream politicians have been too up themselves to really engage with those in our poorer communities and demonstrate that they have any particular interest in their welfare. So the field is left open to the far right, who start by addressing real local issues that are apparently being ignored, and move on the nurture and inflame the myths - ""blacks get all the housing"" - ""they're stealing our jobs"" - we're overrun with illegal asylum seekers"" - and so on and so forth. So I don't like Mrs D's views much, but she almost certainly holds them through a combination of bewilderment and concern, not because she's a bigot in the sense that I understand the term."
Many Brits who speak poor English,and choose not to work could learn much from our European friends.
"MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe."
"Oh come on, let's not pretend that ""flocking"" wasn't meant in a derogatory way. Much of the immigration debate is just code for a dislike of ""foreigners"" and especially those of other races.
This article is spot on. None of the political parties have had the courage to stand up to the anti-immigration lobby with facts about contribution to the economy, that most migrants can't access benefits and so on. There's no mention of the importance of flexible labour, skill levels, net cost/benefit or the any other factor to judge whether immigration is a good or a bad thing, but rather just a blind pandering to the ""there are too many of them"" brigade.
Throughout history elements of societies have always sought scapegoats during times of austerity or hardship and they have usually been minorities and immigrants, so here we are during a recession playing ""blame the immigrant"" and no-one has the courage to stand up to this rubbish.
Furthermore, how many English people live and work in Europe and or abroad? You can't have it both ways you know!
This woman may not be in the league of Nick Griffin, she may not even be racist particularly, but she is spouting an uninformed form of bigotry at best and the lack of criticism of that view is a shame."
"_AT_RichardPlantagenet
So by nature of coming from a less than perfect society, Milena relinquishes the right to respond to prejudice?
Presumably the only views you value are the ones of people like you. There's a word for that."
"Kerrygold
I think you will find that in most of Eastern Europe free speech is in FAR better shape than it is the UK. Your views are outdated by at least a decade. If you think you are experiencing free speech here - think again. What you say is acceptable now here as long as it is middle of the road. You have been successfully duped as have most people. Read 1984 (and weep)"
Many Brits who speak poor English,and choose not to work could learn much from our European friends.
"_AT_AllyF:

You clearly can't understand her feeling hurt at all, can you?
I normally rate your views, but you are right out of order here. And courting the popular vote.
She's entitled to a view without being sworn at by you. Get out from up yourself."
Bully for you. So do I, but then I'm actually British so I don't expect a special pat on the back just because I work and pay tax. You say it like the fact that you do makes you exceptional and that most Eastern Europeans don't. Interesting little slip there.
What a great piece - thanks so much for writing it.
"Do the sums.
The government spends 700 bn. About 12,000 pounds per person.
So unless you earn a lot of money, far above the average, you are going be in the negative when it comes to being a financial benefit to the UK.
The transition point for a single person is 44,000 pounds a year according to http://listentotaxman.com/index.php.
So unless you earn more than this, and have no dependents, then you contribute more than you cost as an individual.
However, if you push someone on to benefits, then the cost goes up. You not only need to support your share, but their cost too.
Now that's also without factoring in the illegal immigration. They aren't paying tax, they are working in the 'alternative' economy. Whilst their consumption of state goods might be less (No benefits), they still have an impact in that they compete with people with low skills.
So what this means to me, is the threshold for being an immigrant has to be earning 44K a year minimum. There also needs to be a rule that no benefits unless you have paid in for 5 years. I would also apply this to UK nationals.
Nick"
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"Milena, for me, this is not about you, not about Eastern Europeans or immigrants.
It is just the moment when Gordon Brown has been caught out being 2 faced."
"Spent some time talking about ""bigotgate"" with workmates this lunchtime at work, and basically everyone agreed with what you say in this article. The woman is an ignorant bigot like so many other British people.
One of my colleagues is married to a polish lady, and he said that she felt pretty much how you describe when she heard that Brown had made a grovelling apology to a bigoted woman. What she said was ill-informed and paid no heed to the contribution that many immigrants make to the UK economy and society. Many British people are lazy and would certainly refuse to take some of the jobs that immigrants do because of their sense of entitlement.
I don't twitter very often, but I hope that if I'd been on there last night I would have supported you!"
Yes we English are a bunch of wazzocks aren't we Milena: but I invite you to go and do the same to the northern Irish or the Scots or the Welsh. You won't because you value a whole skin. You take our salt and then you abuse us: what does that make you?
"Spent some time talking about ""bigotgate"" with workmates this lunchtime at work, and basically everyone agreed with what you say in this article. The woman is an ignorant bigot like so many other British people.
One of my colleagues is married to a polish lady, and he said that she felt pretty much how you describe when she heard that Brown had made a grovelling apology to a bigoted woman. What she said was ill-informed and paid no heed to the contribution that many immigrants make to the UK economy and society. Many British people are lazy and would certainly refuse to take some of the jobs that immigrants do because of their sense of entitlement.
I don't twitter very often, but I hope that if I'd been on there last night I would have supported you!"
"_AT_captainquark1

Of course she's ""allowed"" to hold it, but it doesn't mean it should be treated with deference. Obnoxious views should be challenged.
If she is a bigot, why is Gordon Brown not allowed to say so?"
"Well done for writing this. This is the only thing I have read or heard confirming what I thought about the story in the first place.
It's a shame that Brown had no choice but to retract his statement, and it's a bigger shame that the mainstream news has given absolutely no alternative opinion (such as yours) on the matter.
Hopefully this article will give people, immigrants and non-immigrants, the courage to speak up in support of your argument."
"Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise."
"What we may see in the future (not this election but further down the line) is some serious swinging to the right across Europe and an attempt to return to past glories, real or imagined.
As an example, in the future it may become harder for EU citizens to move around freely simply because politicians will have come to power promising to curb these rights.
""Build walls"" will cry the masses (possibly mostly older voters) and the politicians will build walls.
The wealthier Europeans will navigate these walls and barriers easily enough.
I don't know what the answer is as the entire process might simply be an inevitable consequence of human beings living on Earth. Shit happens, chaos reigns and eventually everything must collapse - entropy.
It's a shame we can't run really, really detailed simulations and see which paths and choices work out best for most of us, most of the time.
For sure, there are winners and losers in all systems. A lot of people claim to think the English only ever lose but there are actually plenty of English winners who haven't done too badly over the past few years,
Mandy wants a government that guarantees her a decent level of state benefits
Mindy wants to know why Mandy ""Has it so good."" and wants a government that guarantees to crack down on Mandy."
Well said, and I'm sorry you need to say it. There is a huge well of bigotry in this country, and the reason why politicians, especially on the left, are afraid to talk about immigration is that they do not want that voice, that bigoted, privileged, English voice, heard.
Well said, and I'm sorry you need to say it. There is a huge well of bigotry in this country, and the reason why politicians, especially on the left, are afraid to talk about immigration is that they do not want that voice, that bigoted, privileged, English voice, heard.
"Maybe you should reconsider the party you support if you dislike the type of people that make up its 'core vote'
Also a shame that Brown felt he couldn't stand up for you in public, imagine if he hadn't had the microphone on, you would have listened to her 'bigoted comments' and seen him smiling getting in the car saying lovely person."
"History's strange: When the first wave of eastern European immigrants came to Britain it was actually because the other eastern Europeans didn't want them there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire"
"The whole episode,like this article is an over reaction.For a start The author is not an immigrant, sounds like she's a succesful woman in a high paid job with a good standard of living.
I suggest she spares a few tears for real immigrants,those who have fled real persecution,those Thousands of people, who along with their children are arrested,and transported and held in detention centres where they suffer real phycological damage."
"Her comments were bigoted. But people only want to moan at Brown (I'm not voting for Labout, by the way).
And what about how much more beautiful the UK is now we have all the Czech, Polish and Slovak ladies here? This is important, god damn it."
"I am so glad you posted this, I do not Twitter but we were discussing this in Uni this morning and came to the same conclusion, she was a bigote and she should not be the one getting the sympathy vote.
If anything this has strengthened my resolve that I will most likely be voting labour in this election for the first time, mainly because of Gordon Brown.
I think more people should have the guts like yourself to stand up to Ms Duffy."
"Polish pilots died in disproportionately high numbers fighting for the RAF in the Battle of Britain. Then Britain did almost nothing to help Poland in the Warsaw Uprising. If the Poles and other east Europeans now want to help our economy by providing diligent hard-working people and preventing wage inflation, I certainly amn't going to argue.
Meanwhile, one has to have a pretty slanted view of the world to think the influx of hard-working eastern Europeans has made Rochdale worse. Having been there a few times many years ago, I know it was a hole well before the Berlin Wall fell.
I just wish Gordon Brown had defended immigrants publicly."
How many of them live in Rochdale?
Fantastic post by Ally
"MEL
That is the most stupid thing I have ever read."
"Another thing, Milena.
For you to be so massively affected, you must have either been tremendously surprised, or felt this was the straw that broke your camel's back...
Which one was it?
I.e. Have you in all your years in the UK basically never previously come across negative feeling or comments directed at you as an E. European?
(this would be quite a tribute to the tolerant atmosphere of the UK)
or
Have you been previously tremendously aware of anti-you or generally anti-E. European attitudes? You don't speak about this. So I don't know.
I know lots of Czechs (and other E. E.s) who have worked in the UK, in positions from menial to managerial - I know some who have stayed there. They have all kinds of comments and reactions, some enthusiastic, some less so...but most feel they have not seriously been targetted (disempowered?) by anti-immigrant or racist passions among the Brits. Most compare the UK favourably with their own country in that respect, while some paradoxically illustrated the point by confessing to finding the UK too ""multicultural"" for their conventional E. E. tastes.
What disturbs me a little is that you seem to have absorbed a particular Brit progressive fault - which is hysterical reaction to criticism of immigrants or immigration...a reaction that goes far beyond the bounds of realism.
E.g. I had a weird conversation in England when visiting a month back.
A friend of mine (a therapist) was talking about how a client of hers had been racially abused at his place of work. I agreed that it sounded awful, that complaints should be made etc... But then my friend, very impassioned, said didn't I think it was just indescribably, incredibly awful...just utterly utterly unbelievable that this could happen in 21st-century Britain? Bad yes, I said, but surely not incredible...
She rounded on me, almost tears in eyes, and accused me of being a racist -..
""WTF?"" I protested - ""all I said was I didn't find the story ""incredible"""" (her use of this word did not indicate her non-belief in the event, but the desire to shroff up the shock/horror to the nth degree). In the ensuing row I realised that my sin had lain in appearing to consider the matter soberly, as a start on a discussion of reasons for racist sentiment and its persistence in specific cases...while what had been expected of me was a sort of ritual chanting and correct quantum of intoxicated fury and consternation....
""I pity the poor immigrant"" sang my idol Dylan, but it is odd to me how the perfectly reasonable business of standing up for immigrants who are vulnerable in society has turned in some quarters into the Holy Church of Immigration, in which all immigrants (even middle-class white professional ones like Milena) are regarded and encouraged to regard themselves as saviours of the nation, liable to be martyred by the evil forces of the white working class or the ""political culture"": so anyone who even while being antiracist fails to adopt the right religiose tone is suspected of heresy. Here it would be ""Oh God I can't BELIEVE that someone like that Duffy woman could EXIST, or that Gordy could apologise...Incredible incredible appalling - no don't try explaining it cos that makes it less INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLE...and INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLY HURTFUL AAAARGH...
It's this mentality that is earning Ally - none could be more antiracist than Ally - unmerited denunciations on this thread for what was a good honest post.
This certainly doesn't ""silence"" people, but it does bugger up communications..."
"My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
The Labour spin machine is obviously in overdrive.
Keep a close eye on this folks, this is what it feels like to be thrown to the wolves."
"Quite agree, Mili. We have a political caste that doesn't have the backbone to hold principles on camera. Up until the numbskulls at the banks wrecked the economy, the Eastern European immigrants were responsible for a large part of the boom we enjoyed for 5 or 6 years. Contrast their humility and hard work for barely more than minimum wage with the continuing arrogant self-regard of the bankers, who still think that skimming a mark-up on financial transactions and betting as a herd entitles them to supersalaries.
No doubt in this evening's ""leaders'"" debate we'll see more vacuous support for freedom, fairness and similar abstract nouns they know they can't be measured by or judged upon."
"The whole episode,like this article is an over reaction.For a start The author is not an immigrant, sounds like she's a succesful woman in a high paid job with a good standard of living.
I suggest she spares a few tears for real immigrants,those who have fled real persecution,those Thousands of people, who along with their children are arrested,and transported and held in detention centres where they suffer real phycological damage."
"Really if you are going to complain about the ""anti-immigration lobby"", then you should get your facts straight.
Anyone from Europe who has paid into national insurance qualifies for the exact same benefits as a UK worker. That means if the immigrant worker is low paid then he or she WILL be supported through tax credits, housing benefits etc. after around 2 years. There is therefore no point whatsoever importing such a person when the job could be done by someone here until he/she earns over around £24k a year and makes a net tax contribution. People like Milena are not the issue here and never have been.
This is EU law and I can't see how you can argue it any other way."
I suppose there are bigots in every country. It doesn't make this one any better - and GB should not have given in and apologised for anything other than forgetting to remove the mic. He could've said publicly that he was sorry for broadcasting the truth, I suppose.
"MEL
Look it up on the BBC."
"Nothing that was said by that women was bigoted. Relative to average rates of immigration to this country, the accession of Eastern European countries led to a large influx of people. In that context, the term ""flock"" seems apposite. It implies nothing derogatory. Brown did try to counter her contention that the rates of immigration were too high, pointing out that more UK citizens live in Europe than vice versa. The problem with Miss Duffy was just that she was fucking annoying. Unable or willing to listen, convinced of her own ideas, squawking with unintelligent certainty. Politician's need to deal with people like this throughout election campaigns. I admire Brown's reaction, i really do. Compared to my likely reaction to having a woman like that shoved in my path, it was polite, muted and wholly uncontroversial. After an encounter where i had, and he had to, bite my tongue and appear apologetic and friendly during such treatment, i would have given the responsible aide a swift punch in the throat and called Mrs. Duffy far worse than bigoted, haha. In my experience that is a rather commonplace human failure, necessary for a functioning society.
In the context of the treatment of immigrants, it says nothing. People are well within the bounds of civility to feel that there are too many new people arriving in the country. They are wrong but they are not bigots. Upon consideration of her comments, if you want to genuinely believe and state that they make her a bigot then I hope you are content to see the millions of Mrs Duffy up and down this country nestle in the bosom of the BNP."
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:14PM
thfc123
29 Apr 2010, 3:08PM
MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe.
Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a pity in that case that most Labour supporters on cif feel the need to attack Mrs Duffy"
"saarfy
""Bully for you. So do I, but then I'm actually British so I don't expect a special pat on the back just because I work and pay tax""
A lot of Daily Mail readers do, to be fair.
""You say it like the fact that you do makes you exceptional and that most Eastern Europeans don't. Interesting little slip there.""
Where's the slip?
If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.
As she says:
""A desperate need to justify myself.""
Because some people probably wonder if she eats all our swans. Or - ""Why the f**k is she here? Why do they all come here? Why don't they piss off back to where they came from?"""
"And indeed why didn't he say so ?
Possibly because she's not and he'd have ended up looking rather silly ?
Instead - he got into his car, muttering about the bloody proles, making up insults on the spot."
"Labour opened the door to mass Eastern European workers in order to provide a large pool of cheap, compliant, available drones to suppress demands from the lowest classes of workers for more pay, better conditions, childcare etc.
In other words , they were, and are, a tool to keep the lower orders in their place and under the authoritarian thumb.
That you believe that Mrs Duffy should somehow be grateful to you for keeping herself and the rest of her class in servitude shows your contempt for the 'rights' of anyone but yourself."
"What a strange overreaction.
Whilst I'm sure you've exaggerated it for effect - ""My Mild Reaction to Gillian...."" wouldn't be half as exciting - it's still totally bizarre.
If you're this oversensitive I'm very surprised that you ever managed to leave home and get a job in another country. I hope nothing truly serious ever happens to you - it sounds like you wouldn't be able to cope."
"Yeah, that happens.
Why don't you poodle along to the UK border agency website sometime to check the facts about who can come to the UK?

... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted."
"I agree. She was spouting bigoted material, whether it's her real view or she's been somehow 'tainted by the media' and just repeating things without thinking them through doesn't really matter, she was.
Murdoch has made a meal of it, totally overshadowing the real issues, but who's apologised to you, and other Eastern Europeans, or for that matter other immigrants of any nationality??
From some of the posts above, there seem to be a lot f bigots about today, and that is a sad state of affairs for this country."
"_AT_LordSummerisle

Thanks for pointing that out, LSi, because I have been in shock since yesterday at the vilification of that woman by so many on these threads.
The accounts are obviously all being set up by Millbank, or wherever it is that the Labour media bunker is situated these days. Shameful."
"They have stated their opinion, that her comments sounded bigoted to them, they have not stated that they are labour supporters, indeed many have said they dislike labour and think she is a bigot.
This is the hilarity of the right's position. ""We want free speech"" ""But you leftys better keep quiet and not challenge us"""
"Milena. There are two seperate issues here, firstly was Mrs Duffy being a bigot? The answer is clearly no. She may be a bigot but there is no evidence of that in her exchange with Brown. Having some concerns about the scale of immigration, Eastern European or otherwise, does not in itself make an individual a bigot. Being unwilling to discuss it and calling those that do wish to do so 'bigots' does however. So it's Gordon Brown, not Mrs Duffy who has shown himself up as a 'bigot'; despite his claims to wish to discuss immigartion he clearly wants to ignore the topic.
The second issue is your reaction. Why would you be taken aback and so upset that many British people do not welcome the arrival of enormous numbers of Eastern Europeans? Do you really think that all Eastern Europeans would welcome huge numbers of Turks, Romanians, Russians or Chinese arriving in your countries? I suggest that not only would they be hostile, but considerably less willing to treat those people fairly than is the average British person. The racism of Eastern Europeans towards black football players even is notorious!"
"LordSummerisle
29 Apr 2010, 3:24PM
My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
The Labour spin machine is obviously in overdrive.
Keep a close eye on this folks, this is what it feels like to be thrown to the wolves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed Lord S , i have noticed this vast swath or flock of random new posters over the last few days , it is even worse on the BBC website"
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"Interesting - no comments?
I sometimes wonder how we would feel if we found out that our citizens in other countries around the world where described 'as flooding in', 'taking jobs' etc etc?
Immigration is an easy target for politicians because in most cases no-one dare defend it, even the businesses that benefit. Gillian Duffy is a pensioner and god forbid she gets old enough to have to live in a pensioner's home or need long term care in her 'old' age. She will be thankful for immigration then!"
Priviliged? You mean the people that are thrilled with the fact that they can get Eastern European nannies for a pittance, and love the fact that it is a Polish girl that serves them their overpriced "skinny latte" instead of a British girl with a working-class accent? The privileged people are the last ones who would be against mass immigration, as is evidenced by the outpourings here. Go to a newspaper whose readership is somewhat less privileged, and you will hear a far different story.
Yes, Milena, I agree with you! Thank you!
"The woman isn't a bigot, she's an old age pensioners who deserves some respect.
The area she grew up in has probably changed beyond all recognition - people speak languages she doesn't understand, shops stock food she can't pronounce let alone eat etc. These are unsetting for an old person unused to change.
None of the political parties have ever taken the trouble to explain to her these changes, and why there can be positive effects, like extra nurses for the NHS as just one example, they just call her a bigot and shout her down. They don't live in places where some of the negative effects of immigration are felt too - increased competition for jobs and services, lower wages, changing culture, and the right wing press and both major political parties have been more than happy to play on her understandable fears and not counter the arguments of the racists and bigots.
Yesterday, Gordon Brown got his just desserts for his part in this tragedy - he's been happy to court tabloid bigotry with catchy slogans 'British jobs for British workers' etc, and he and the tabloids have spent years turning poor people and minorities against each other. It's always the fault of immigrants or asylum seekers, single mothers, or benefit cheats, all to distract people from the real villains - bankers, corporations, and the politicians themselves, happily gorging on the public trough while simultaneously mismanaging the economy.
Mrs Duffy isn't a bigot, and she isn't your enemy or deserving of your enmity. Save that for the politicians and the media who primed her complaints and exploited her wholly understandable fears for the future in such uncertain times."
"What this incident has shown is that large swathes of the population have no idea what a bigot is.
Mrs Duffy may or may not be a bigot. There is, however, no basis for calling her a bigot in what she said yesterday.
The people who assume she's a bigot based on the one, garbled, question she asked Brown yesterday on the other hand... why must she be a bigot? Because she's a northern pensioner who asked about Eastern European immigrants, and, well, they're all bigots aren't they? Is that what you think?
Seems you might be the ones with prejudices there."
The problem is not Duffys but those left wingers that wanted to change the make up of society in the hope that the newer people in the country would vote for them and so maintain them in office. The problem was no one in power asked the people if this is what they wanted. Gordon has helped the BNP more than those racist idiots could have dreamed of doing themselves. Next time Gordon think about the people you represent not just your own narrow self interest.
Because you are part of it. The lie is that immigration is not allowed to be discussed, I proved that it is discussed ad nauseam and that the gutter press have banner headlines attacking immigrants every week. This double myth that immigration is taboo, whilst immigrants are attacked without redress IS the political correctness of the right, or is your mind so closed you can't grasp the paradox?
In what other country are British people 'flooding in' and 'taking jobs the locals don't WANT to do'?
"Duffy said nothing offensive.
She is not a bigot.
She's an old lady struggling to come to terms with massive changes in the social fabric of her country. She asked cogent questions about finance, Uni fees and such like as well as immigration. It might have been nice if Brown had helped explain to her the realities and benefits of the EU open market helped reassure her that all of these changes are not per se 'Bad'. But he ran away and then insulted the woman...for no reason!
Your whining reaction is PRECISELY why the subject of Immigration is so taboo.It seems we are not allowed to discuss immigration because you will start weeping and wailing and sobbing and feel all disenfranchised? A few words from a member of the white working class and you deem her a nasty bigot .
You are so pretentious and precious you veer towards the hysterical.
I found your diatribe quite amusing actually..... the sobbing, the wailing, the anger... all of it very very amusing.... and sadly pathetic..."
"_AT_kenbarlow
You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say."
I find it hilarious that citizens of the commonweatlh (but not EU citizens) can vote in this election.
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:29PM
Ghostworld
29 Apr 2010, 3:26PM
MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:14PM
thfc123
29 Apr 2010, 3:08PM
MEL
One Labour ""worker"" already tried to start a rumour that Mrs Duffy was paid by the Sun.
If I were you I would be quiet on the subject. The dirty tricks started the moment Brown was told about his gaffe.
Proof?
Most Labour response has been to apologise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a pity in that case that most Labour supporters on cif feel the need to attack Mrs Duffy
They have stated their opinion, that her comments sounded bigoted to them, they have not stated that they are labour supporters, indeed many have said they dislike labour and think she is a bigot.
This is the hilarity of the right's position. ""We want free speech"" ""But you leftys better keep quiet and not challenge us""
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all due respect mate they have been a lot more vicious and downright nastier than that ..... Come on Middle we both know that the vast vast majority of the negative comments against Mrs Duffy are from Labour apologists
What precisely do you mean "" the rights position "" ? ....What i find amusing about your comment here is that it is YOUR party who has done the most damage to free speech"
"Maybe you should reconsider the party you support if you dislike the type of people that make up its 'core vote'
Also a shame that Brown felt he couldn't stand up for you in public, imagine if he hadn't had the microphone on, you would have listened to her 'bigoted comments' and seen him smiling getting in the car saying lovely person."
"_AT_mooneym
Um, are you referring to Gillian Duffy as ""privileged""? She's a retired, working class council worker from a less than balmy part of the country, probably living on something like £12,000 a year. You may find the ""privileged"" classes deficient in certain ways and the working class deficient in others, but it's foolishness to suggest that they share each other's failings.
I do think we have to remember that a democracy will not function well if the views of the major parties are so far removed from those of their electors that the two groups find each other incomprehensible. You can refuse to give people what they want for a while - not for ever - but telling people that they are wrong to want it in the first place is doomed to fail."
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More paranoid hysteria, I've just clicked on a load of comments supporting Duffy that are from first time posters, get a grip.
"I'm glad you wrote this. I completely agree. I cannot stand Labour nor Gordon Brown, (I think they have an awful, awful record on civil liberties, for a start) but Gordon was right about that woman:
She is a shining example of what a ""bigot"" is (and I'm sure she didn't even know that word before yesterday's gaffe). It is people like that who ruin this country for everybody else with their ignorance."
"I am an immigrant from Italy and I have lived in this country since 1985. I have had overall a good experience; on the positive side, the openness, the helpfulness of so many people, even when my English was nowhere as good as it is now, the fairness when applying for a job. On the (much smaller) negative side, some humour directed at Italians, or at my accent, and some stereotypical assumptions about how I am expected to behave. All pretty understandable. In my experience, a foreigner from Western Europe, or from the USA, has very little negativity coming his or her way - probably pinpricks compared to what immigrants from far poorer countries have to cope with. But then, immigrants to Italy are far from being made welcome either.
I pay my taxes (at the higher rate) and, since my wife and I are childless and in good health, we draw on public services (at least for now) less than many immigrant (or native) families. On the other hand, when my mother was too old to stay on her own in Italy and she came here, and then needed care in a residential home, she queued and when it was her turn she was accepted, and when she ran out of money the local authority paid the difference between her pension and the costs of her care without a murmur, although she bhad paid all her taxes in Italy. And also on the other hand, I pay my taxes but I have a job that, if I wasn't here, could go to somebody born and brought up in London; and when I bought a house, with the proceeds of the sale of my flat in Italy, that helped push house prices up, in a small way. I might retire in Spain - and in this case, my UK pension will be spent somewhere else and support Spanish, not British, jobs. The immigration coin has many different sides.
The main problem, as I see it, is that the benefits of immigration go to people who are not at the receiving end of the negative sides: lower non-skilled wages benefit the most those who have more buying power, who are njot the same as those who have to cope with longer waiting lists and pressure on services. And beyond the economic side, a community with many immigrants in it loses the kind of predictability and reliability of behavours, in good and bad, which is given by a relatively homogeneous population. I can see where Mrs Duffy comes from, and frankly I don't think I can criticise her. In a longer perspective, one of the reasons why I could come here freely, work, acquire a British passport, and sop on, is because a lot of working-class Britons, perhaps xenophobic, perhaps uneducated, perhaps uninformed, fought for six years to defeat - and thus to free - my country of origin. In a perfect world, everyone would be educated, balanced, well informed, culturally open; in the real world, people who are not that can have other, not necessarily lower, good qualities."
Anyone else tempted to vote BNP after this? Come on be honest.
Three rousing cheers . Absolutely. One hundred per cent correct. At last.
"Dogday

And you are just angry that someone you despise for coming from another group dares to assert her value. Yet you jump to Mrs Duffy's defence - presumably because you see her as one of your own. So you demonstrate you are equally pretentious and precious"
"This is a terrible article.
With your decaf-skinny-latte-as-shorthand-for-too comfortable-and-socially-unaware' stereotyping, you are being pretty bigoted yourself. Yes, most people do know an immigrant, most of us know lots, and count them among our family and friends. It's arrogant and presumptuous to tell us what you 'want us to do' to open our eyes.
Gordon Brown was an idiot to call her a bigot, however narrow her mind is. I'll still vote for them, but there are a more people that won't now."
"I still haven't seen Gillian Duffy's comments reported rather than summarised and I wasn't going to accept the media's version without seeing the actual text/film. I was also unhappy at criticising Gillian Duffy rather than the media and politicians who have made xenophobic attitudes acceptable and aslo wanted to acknowledge that people who are unaccustomed to appear on TV may express themselves in a way that they later regret and that doesn't do justice to the complexity of their views.
Thanks for your piece. I shall look up the whole clip on youtube when I next have enough uninterrupted time and access to a computer with decent sound. I'll also do as you suggest and talk more to immigrants about their experiences in this country. And, in case no-one else bothers to say it, welcome."
Eastern Europeans are 'flocking' from Eastern Europe.
"_AT_phonopath

Really ? perhaps you could explain exactly what she said that defines her as a bigot ?
If he had said it to her face I'd have thought he had issues, unable to comprehend simple English, distrusting of the working class and/or those not as privileged as him and therefore not worth a vote."
I have worked in 2 different countries since 1998 and in both of those countries I was welcomed, there was of course some joking etc about my teeth, the royals etc but overall, I worked, made friends, got on with it. People were the same there as they are here, immigration, be it permanent or temporary is a fact of life. Without the Poles etc many of us would not have been able to afford painters, builders etc because the local tradesmen had become so expensive, you needed a 2nd mortgage to fix up a flat. This is economic reality. We invited the West Indians here in the 1950s because no brit would drive the buses or do other perceived menial roles. So its tough shit now. Mr and Mrs Ignorant cannot complain if they face competition for resources, jobs etc etc. Life is competition, it starts in the womb.
We are a nation of bigots, I am sick of hearing overweight british slobs on the media wingeing about foreigners taking our jobs. Its b*llocks, without the immigrant (educated, motivated hard working) workforce we would have no care workers, nurses, seasonal workers in the agricultural sector I could go on (and on) doing the jobs the local populace cant be arsed to get out of bed for.
"The Labour Party told us 50,000 Eastern Europeans would enter Britain at the time of the Polish accession. (Incidentally, shouldn't that be 'Central Europeans'?)
It's over one million now. Why on earth are you surprised that many Britons feel overwhelmed?
Add to this the fact that none of us were asked whether we wanted to join the political European Union that set this process in motion, and the wonder is that Duffy is the only one to have been able (accidentally) to make the point. (That you've only just been made aware of this feeling is because, well, it isn't allowed by the powers who hold the levers of media power).
Lest you and CIFers start foaming and allocating bigotry where it doesn't belong, let me add that I'm a first generation Central Europen immigrant, and my sympathies are ultimately with the free movements of free people. But, the indigenous population of this country have been refused any say, simply because, as Duffy has indicated, their views oppose the governing class's leftism.
To be blunt: Your contrived victimhood is absurd. If I, as a Central European, started telling the British that they may not do anything that impinges upon my world view, and the world view of their rulers, I'd be better off back home.
What can you do? The same as the British who so disappoint you: vote."
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
"The adjective 'flocking' is indeed bigoted, but it's the rhetoric of the press that preys on people like Mrs. Duffy. It's too easy to direct anger and scorn at people for their ill-informed views, in a blog with a limited and predominantly middle-class, young middle-age readership. It shows a lack of understanding of towns like Rochdale where people have seen their landscape change dramatically because of immigration (whether for better or worse is not the point- they've had to adjust, which is always complicated and difficult), and of how the press manipulates people's feelings. From the way you write you'd think Mrs Duffy had launched into some kind of anti-foreigner diatribe, and she didn't. She voiced her fears to her Prime Minister because she wanted him to respond to them, and admittedly used some inflammatory language.
Gordon should have explained to her that immigration has many benefits, while showing understanding of her fears."
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"Do you suppose that any Brits would refust to do ""menial"" jobs, no matter how high a wage they paid? Lets say being a toliet cleaner paid £1000 a week, for instance? Plenty of Brits would put up with this ""menial"" job for a few years in order to save enough to buy a home.
Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that toilet cleaners are paid £1000 a week, but the point stands. There are no ""jobs British people don't WANT to do"", there are only ""jobs British people don't WANT to do the wage on offer"". How many doctors do you suppose would be happy to work for minimum wage? What about MPs?
The fact is that in this country today, there are far too many low-paid jobs, that do not pay enough for people to live. The moderately well-paid jobs in industry were lost and the jobs that replaced them in the service sector are far poorly paid. Meanwhile those at the top end of society have seen their earnings skyrocket, which has greatly skewed the prices of many goods and services, and housing in particular. It is not unreasonable that more than a few people are upset and greatly resentful towards the government because of this."
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
Tautology was gazumpted by Irony.
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"Do you suppose that any Brits would refust to do ""menial"" jobs, no matter how high a wage they paid? Lets say being a toliet cleaner paid £1000 a week, for instance? Plenty of Brits would put up with this ""menial"" job for a few years in order to save enough to buy a home.
Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that toilet cleaners are paid £1000 a week, but the point stands. There are no ""jobs British people don't WANT to do"", there are only ""jobs British people don't WANT to do the wage on offer"". How many doctors do you suppose would be happy to work for minimum wage? What about MPs?
The fact is that in this country today, there are far too many low-paid jobs, that do not pay enough for people to live. The moderately well-paid jobs in industry were lost and the jobs that replaced them in the service sector are far poorly paid. Meanwhile those at the top end of society have seen their earnings skyrocket, which has greatly skewed the prices of many goods and services, and housing in particular. It is not unreasonable that more than a few people are upset and greatly resentful towards the government because of this."
Tautology was gazumpted by Irony.
"Meet an immigrant? Been there, been one.
You sound as though you think it's all roses and chocolate being a UK immigrant in other countries. I spent many years in France and in Germany. In that time I've had people refuse to serve me because of my nationality; landlords have refused to allow me to rent flats because of my nationality; I've been denied jobs because of my nationality; I've heard a whole lot of nasty jokes about the British/English/English speakers; etc. Of course it never seems to occur to those making the jokes that they might actually be offensive, and they'd be ever so hurt if you pointed it out.
For many, the move to the UK is part of a 'wave' of immigration (sorry if that's bigoted, but I do in fact mean 'coordinated multiparticulate motion', rather than 'large oceanic thing that drowns you and probably contains jellyfish'). In the words of Arlo Guthrie:

Being alone and lost and confused in a totally foreign country is indeed a daunting thing. My personal experience of doing it, which as an anecdote is worth no more or less than your anecdote, suggests to me that the lone immigrant often has to put up with an awful lot of nonsense before acceptance, if that ever happens. The 'movement' aspect of this case has advantages and disadvantages. On the one hand, the 'lone(ly) immigrant' situation is less likely, which is good; it's more likely that there will be some concessions available (eg. stores, newspapers in relevant languages, etc), which is good. On the other hand, if (sorry) 'birds of a feather flock together' (not intended to imply that immigrants poop on pavements, dear metaphor literalists, but rather 'emergent behaviour may be inherent from nearest-neighbour interaction'), that implies inadvertent segregation, limiting interaction between groups, building resentment and hostility. Which is bad. You, yourself, seem to speak for what you perceive to be your group ('us flocking Eastern Europeans'). Isn't that really just 'feeding the troll', or do you really believe that there is a benefit in asserting collective identity?
Many individuals in the countries I have lived in are/were appallingly ignorant about the British. I accept that many had, frankly, short-sighted and stupid views. I dealt with it, and still do, and it is well worth the effort of doing so. I'm definitely not bursting into floods of tears about it. So I'm trying here to be nice, and polite, and not judge, and so I'll just say what I've been told myself: to be an immigrant requires a thick skin, lots of confidence and a lot of patience. Truthfully, you can't change other people. You can only change yourself, and hope that other people follow. Either it's worth persevering, even if it means frustration and anger and the need for counselling, or it isn't.
Duffy has done nothing that particularly requires a smackdown, except for being accidental human interest in a media circus. Neither have you, except for going after someone pretty standard as though they were Joe The Plumber and you were an angry Democrat. Both of you, in a political environment, are wearing your heart on your sleeve. But none of this proves anything except a) Duffy is concerned regarding certain aspects of immigration, and so what else would anybody expect, and b) you have for some reason taken this extraordinarily personally, and would be best advised to turn off the TV and go for a walk."
Duffy....that's an Irish name isn't it? Maybe she was being ironic.
"Coincidently, I wrote this letter to my local newspaper last weekend, which they've just published.
However, I don't regard this bloke as a bigot, just an idiot, I've been arguing with these people all my life ( and that's a good many decades) it'd take all the fun out of life if they all became liberals.
Brown dealt with the Duffy situation very well, however the use of the word bigot, allbeit in private, showed ill tempered intolerance, fortunately it won't lose Labour many votes, because people who make an effort to vote have usually got some intelligence and better things to worry about.
My letter letter to the Newark Advertiser:
Your correspondent John Tinsley says that we welcome increasing numbers of migrants with no higher ideal than to improve their economic status (Youth At Risk, News Views, April 23).
Is that not a very honourable ambition?
Go to countries around the world, especially in Europe, and you?ll find masses of British people doing the same thing.
Is it only wrong when foreigners come to this country?
The British troops who go to Afghanistan do it to improve their economic status, and you only have to watch them talk about getting involved in a firefight to see that?s why they joined.
When I was doing National Service in 1956, the Suez debacle took place and two regular officers were talking in my office.
One said to the other: ?Thank God for this war; at last I?m going to get my half colonel pips.?
It?s a job. Only civilians, politicians and tabloid newspapers talk about ?our brave boys.? The troops themselves signed up for it.
A friend (a National Service conscript) who stopped a bullet in Malaya where he was fighting the Communist insurgents, told me one day that he wished people would stop telling him how brave he was.
?For crying out loud,? he said. ?I was sent on patrol by an officer. If I?d told him to clear off that would have been brave.?"
"I am sorry for all immigrants to this country which have to read the anti foreigner anti EU tripe printed by the Red tops, and the so called serious newspapers repeat it hypocritically. The BBC and the rest of the media are also guilty when they do nothing to dispel the maybe genuine fears of the less well educated people.
We are in the EU. In the EU are 27 countries we are able to buy property, live and work in al of these countries, they equally are entitled to the same here. They can pay taxes here, vote in Local and provincial elections but not National Elections.
I have been an imigrnat worker in several EU states and have never met the bigoted views put forward by our press and repeated by a large section of the population.
I would go as far as to say that in some of the countries I have lived some of the lies printed in our papers would have been illegal.
The reason they are allowed to carry on their slander of the innocent is because the right wing want to deflect our anger from themselves which they are generally successfull in.
God does not draw lines on a map politicians and exploiters do."
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"_AT_phonopath

Really ? perhaps you could explain exactly what she said that defines her as a bigot ?
If he had said it to her face I'd have thought he had issues, unable to comprehend simple English, distrusting of the working class and/or those not as privileged as him and therefore not worth a vote."
Mrs Duffy is not a bigot -- she asked a perfectly reasonable question in her own way...Brown's comments were typical of the man... if he doesn't like a question the person asking it rubbished...
"I am sorry for all immigrants to this country which have to read the anti foreigner anti EU tripe printed by the Red tops, and the so called serious newspapers repeat it hypocritically. The BBC and the rest of the media are also guilty when they do nothing to dispel the maybe genuine fears of the less well educated people.
We are in the EU. In the EU are 27 countries we are able to buy property, live and work in al of these countries, they equally are entitled to the same here. They can pay taxes here, vote in Local and provincial elections but not National Elections.
I have been an imigrnat worker in several EU states and have never met the bigoted views put forward by our press and repeated by a large section of the population.
I would go as far as to say that in some of the countries I have lived some of the lies printed in our papers would have been illegal.
The reason they are allowed to carry on their slander of the innocent is because the right wing want to deflect our anger from themselves which they are generally successfull in.
God does not draw lines on a map politicians and exploiters do."
"It must be that Milena Popova is disenfranchised out of choice, i.e. she is not prepared to give up foreign citizenship.
""Oh, I wonder if I can challenge Duffy to take the citizenship test.""
The Life In The UK Test
(""The voltage supplied to almost all properties in the United Kingdom is
110 Volts?
150 Volts?
240 Volts?
480 Volts?"")
is not a citizenship test.
Being able to give the right answers to a New Labour pub quiz should not entitle anyone to a British passport.
Given Labour's discrimatory treatment of Romanians and Bulgarians
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=apusU_Xn7Kuc
it's probably not a good idea for the NL berkocracy to start accusing people of bigotry."
"Lots of you are missing the point here.
Brown did NOT stand up to Mrs Duffy. He told her how nice it was to meet her and complimented her on her grandchildren....and then called her a bigot behind her back.
That's the real problem from Brown. If he thought she was a bigot then he should have challenged her views, or at the least said he did not agree and moved on, but he did not. He then said he'd ""misunderstood"" - a weasel wording apolog if I ever heard one.
That's why he deserves to be slated whatever your view on what Mrs duffy said. Either it was not bigotted, in which case he was slagging off a nice old lady behind her back, or it was, in which case he was two-faced and dishonest to his beliefs for being matey with her and not challenging her views.
On the issue itself I say - if you think what she said was so bad to reduce you to tears then I honestly fear for your mental state. Do I agree with her, no, but is what she said in any way shocking, no. Honestly, on the BBC news much worse was said by about half the people in Rochdale they doorstepped for views.
Going back to my original point, its another reason why it plays so badly for Brown. He came out of the original conversation pretty well to the outside observer and with the woman herself telling the press she liked Brown and would vote for him. In fact, she did not challenge his answr on immigration at all, but seemed to accept it and move on to a totally different topic altogether."
"Coincidently, I wrote this letter to my local newspaper last weekend, which they've just published.
However, I don't regard this bloke as a bigot, just an idiot, I've been arguing with these people all my life ( and that's a good many decades) it'd take all the fun out of life if they all became liberals.
Brown dealt with the Duffy situation very well, however the use of the word bigot, allbeit in private, showed ill tempered intolerance, fortunately it won't lose Labour many votes, because people who make an effort to vote have usually got some intelligence and better things to worry about.
My letter letter to the Newark Advertiser:
Your correspondent John Tinsley says that we welcome increasing numbers of migrants with no higher ideal than to improve their economic status (Youth At Risk, News Views, April 23).
Is that not a very honourable ambition?
Go to countries around the world, especially in Europe, and you?ll find masses of British people doing the same thing.
Is it only wrong when foreigners come to this country?
The British troops who go to Afghanistan do it to improve their economic status, and you only have to watch them talk about getting involved in a firefight to see that?s why they joined.
When I was doing National Service in 1956, the Suez debacle took place and two regular officers were talking in my office.
One said to the other: ?Thank God for this war; at last I?m going to get my half colonel pips.?
It?s a job. Only civilians, politicians and tabloid newspapers talk about ?our brave boys.? The troops themselves signed up for it.
A friend (a National Service conscript) who stopped a bullet in Malaya where he was fighting the Communist insurgents, told me one day that he wished people would stop telling him how brave he was.
?For crying out loud,? he said. ?I was sent on patrol by an officer. If I?d told him to clear off that would have been brave.?"
"~reads comments~
I *want* to say something pro-education, rather than bashing people for bashing people, but tautology got gazumpted by irony."
Generalization, I live in an area with lots of immigrants who use the local services but also contribute in taxes, including working class Poles, who have helped me improve my Polish whilst I help with their English.
"Stankle
""You now appear to be applying the author's defence to a whole bunch of things Mrs Duffy didn't say.""
I am a tad confused by your post - I'm not sure I claimed Mrs Duffy said anything in particular.
Last post of mine was:
""If British people say stuff like: ""They only come over here to claim benefits cos we're a soft touch"" then the grafters and tax payers might feel a need to defend themselves.""
etc.
To elaborate:
with a general and widespread dislike of immigrants, often openly expressed in words and writing, it is fair enough for some to feel a need to defend and ""justify"" themselves."
"Maybe you and Mrs. Duffy feel the same - nobody's listening, sticking up for you or thinking you're a valuable member of society.
She's just been called a bigot by the Prime Minister. That's probably enough don't know why you want all your friends on Twitter to be angry at her too."
Gordon Brown has clearly employed a team of temps to sign up to CiF and back him up. Spooky!
"FugaziFan

Indeed. On this thread alone we've had:



All sounds a bit bigoted to me. Most British people seem to have thick skins and just put up with it, unlike the author of this piece."
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"_AT_Longhaultrucker - the author is a Bulgarian, not a Pole. Indeed, she prefers to remain Bulgarian rather than take up British citizenship, hence she doesn't have a vote.
If you think Polish pilots in WWII justify Polish immigration (?!) then it is probably worth pointing out who Bulgaria was allied with during WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria#World_War_II
_AT_Barry841
""... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted.""
Our asylum/immigration/citizenship system is indeed weak, here are a couple of high profile cases for you to ponder (or ""bust"" if you can):
""Single"" mother and seven children (from Afghanistan) given free housing:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23571099-1m-council-home-sparks-review-of-housing-benefits.do
The husband in that family was later ""busted"" for fraud, so perhaps not so single:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2811824/Cigarette-scam-Afghan-has-cost-taxpayers-1million.html
or perhaps this one, two free homes, but only one (large) family?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936223.ece
Exceptional perhaps, but even one of these instances is equivalent to the tax-take from many Mrs Duffys or the average employed East European migrant.
Strangely, CiF hasn't asked any of the immigrants involved in these cases to write about how welcoming or otherwise they have found the UK. Why not? Wouldn't it help the pro-mass immigration case?
They look like winners to me. Perhaps they could explain to Mrs Duffy why university tuition fees (which Labour promised not to introduce) are now neccesary for her grandchildren? Housing Benefit now costs £20 billion - that money has to come from somewhere."
"SirOrfeo

There's a difference between saying that education about immigration is necessary in our society (quite agree) and saying what Milena said: ""Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something."" which is perhaps the most grotesquely, offensively patronising thing I've ever read in my entire life, not least because it is addressed to people who have been living alongside immigrants for decades.
dan1973

The people I am describing are here entirely legally, from the expanded EU, mostly Romania, but some from Bulgaria, Poland and other countries. They are living in privately rented houses, which are extremely cheap and available in my part of Manchester. As I understand it, the situation is very similar in Rochdale, although the people involved are largely Polish rather than Roma. But the situations are indeed very, very similar.
OZKT

It's not really about ethnicity, because we we're a highly diverse community already, with very good race relations. It's about sudden, rapid change. It's a bit like waking up one morning and finding you live in a different place you went to sleep in last night. I don't have a problem with that personally, but a lot of people, understandably, find it rather discombobulating. That is as true of our large Asian/Muslim and African-Caribbean communities as the white British communities. All of us have found it to be a significant upheaval.

It's not about how educated we are. It's about how offensively patronising it is to be told that if you have a problem with your home community changing overnight, then educate yourself until you understand it.

They weren't moved here, they chose to come here of their own free will, because there was a lot of cheap housing, because we are a poor area. What another charming poster on Cif this morning called 'wasteland.'"
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"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
We are a nation of bigots. I am sick of the sound & sight of red faced wingeing Brits on the media bangingon about foreigners taking our jobs; we would not have care workers, nurses, agricultural workers doing the hard graft because we can't (generally) be bothered to get off our fat arses
"_AT_AllyF -- Spot on.
_AT_Milena:

And that's why it's wrong to target Gillian Duffy -- Brown could have challenged her as you suggested, he could have found out more about what she meant. He could have tried to understand. But he didn't and he didn't confront her honestly and openly. Now she's being used by the media (but if she gets that £50k maybe her grandchildren will get a good university education)
I come from a working class family the questions she asked about education and welfare and looking after the vulnerable and about the impact of recent immigration are all questions that would be raised by family -- especially of that generation. At one point in the 1980s all of the adult males in my family were unemployed because of the collapse/destruction of the car industry, they started again, now the older ones have questions about pension relief, about health care, about how the younger ones are going to manage -- how they'll find a job that pays enough to buy a home or how they'll be able to afford to go to university to get themselves out of the trap. They are Labour people, they were brought up to understand how capitalism seeks to drive down wages whilst increasing profits for shareholders, and they worry that immigrant labour will drive down wages. Not middle-class professional salaries, but wages for basic jobs at a time when there is growing unemployment. Whether the fears are well-founded or not is another matter but avoiding the question and then calling those who have these concerns bigots is desperately avoiding reality. The BNP really can't get close to the many people who have these concerns because it isn't about 'race' or 'foreigners' in general.
I don't live in the UK at the moment -- I'm an immigrant. Like you I have a good job and I pay higher rate income tax. But there are plenty of other immigrants here who have lower paid jobs and who work very hard - but when they lose their job because of ill-health, or because the company goes bust, what happens to them? Are they looked after? In addition: whilst I'm paid a good salary, am I taxed enough to insure that the poorest receive the support they need? I mean both locals and incomers..."
"Hi there Milena, I'm not a racist, And I don't think the questions that Mrs Duffy put to the Prime Minister were bigoted, they were most certainly unrehearsed and she clearly felt passionately about these things.
IF she was anti-foreigner then she could of course always vote BNP, but she said she was a a Labour supporter. ""Was"" being the important word here because I wouldn't vote for them on Thursday now if I was in her position.
Gordon Browns' performance was shambling, and after all these years in government he really ought to be more media savvy than this.
What Mrs Duffy said, indicates to me that she is badly informed, Not thick, not stupid or evil, just not in possession of the full facts.
For that we can hold the media as partly to blame, only partly though, as we are by our geographic and post colonial position in the world an insular nation. That is us.
We are however, gradually changing generation by generation, slowly but
surely. Unlike the USA who are building more draw bridges, in order to pull them up.
May I ask you, what were your own personal reasons for choosing to come here?
If it was to work and you have found work, and on the whole that work has made your life better than before, then good for you. I am pleased that my country has enabled that.
Many who were invited, yes invited here after the second world war from The West indies, India and other former British colonies, people who had fought alongside the European allies to defeat the fascists, were themselves bewildered at the ignorance, casual racism, and hatred meted out to them when they set foot on these shores. They'll be able to tell you a few things about bigotry.
But I expect that as an educated woman you will know all this, and will have chosen to come here after careful research."
"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
"Hi Milena,
I am a fellow Eastern European and I understand you perfectly. I too have lived in the UK for over 10 years and have the right to vote, finally! So will you, soon.
And yes, it is true that there will always be prejudiced people and that foreigners will not always be well-accepted. Just think about Bulgaria and about some of the foreigners of less desired kind there. To mistrust them is natural and understandable and hard as it may be to live away from home and start afresh, hey, this is your own choice, I hope. You are free and should you believe that people in Bulgaria or elsewhere are more accepting of foreigners, do go there and let me know, I will consider moving there :-)"
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"chav45 no but given the smearing going on this is article, you can start to see why people do .
Express any opinion that?s not totally supportive of immigration and except to get attacked, is the message coming out loud and clear. The idea that using the word flocking is some great insults is stupid ,it?s a word used sometimes to describe groups of people, as in ?the people will come flocking?. It quite possible it?s just a word she used to describe a group of people which means nothing but that.
But the attack dogs , and that is an insult , of the left very quickly to attribute a thousand and one things to her which they zero evidence but reflect their own prejudiced.
I wonder if the Guardian will have the balls to give Mrs Duffy the right to reply to this attack or will it once again hid behind accuses ?"
"Sounds like you and Mrs. Duffy feel the same - nobody's listening or valuing you as a member of society.
So you've come out and said something angry in the public domain.
She's just been called a bigot by the Prime Minister. That's probably enough. Not sure why you want all your friends on Twitter to be angry at her too."
"May I amend your last paragraph?
So here's what I want you to do. The vast majority of you will know a Briton - they might be a close friend, they might be the girl who makes your decaf skinny latte in the coffee shop, they might be a colleague. I want you to go up to that person and ask them what it's like being a citizen of the third most crowded nation in the world, being asked to accept over one million new Eastern European immigrants without being asked. Even if you think you know them really well already, you probably have never thought or talked to them about these things. How does it feel to be so overwhelmed? To have your old life and culture wiped away and to have to start again, in your own home, from scratch? To be in the middle of a general election where the oppostion requires 14% more of the vote to receive the same representaion as the party who invited the immigrants in? When were they asked if they wanted the fragile welfare state diluted like this? What do and don't they like about immigrants? What was it like here when it was their own country? Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.
Lest you mistake me: I write as a first generation Briton of Central European descent."
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
If Gordon had asked this lady how she had been inconvenienced by immigrants and then went on to list some of the benefits migration has brought to this country, many people would have admired him atleast for his honesty. There is no limit to pandering to prejudice.
I was pleased to hear a politician telling the truth for once, but was disappointed when he apologised. That woman WAS bigoted, whether she (and the general public) like it or not. I am gutted that people like her have the vote when so many bright and intelligent, tollerant people refuse to use their vote in a constructive manner.
being a brit in australia I felt what it was like to be an immigrant, it was horrible, treated like a second class citizen when back packing, left a nasty taste in my mouth. made me think differently about immigrants in Britain. People need scapegoats to blame for thier failiures, immigrants are convienient. Brits are happier signing on, getting benifits to pay nfor their homes. please realise not everyone is like the old biggot, most of us embrace different cultures and learn from them. the uk would be a lot duller if we were all like Ms Duffy.
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"May I amend your last paragraph?
So here's what I want you to do. The vast majority of you will know a Briton - they might be a close friend, they might be the girl who makes your decaf skinny latte in the coffee shop, they might be a colleague. I want you to go up to that person and ask them what it's like being a citizen of the third most crowded nation in the world, being asked to accept over one million new Eastern European immigrants without being asked. Even if you think you know them really well already, you probably have never thought or talked to them about these things. How does it feel to be so overwhelmed? To have your old life and culture wiped away and to have to start again, in your own home, from scratch? To be in the middle of a general election where the oppostion requires 14% more of the vote to receive the same representaion as the party who invited the immigrants in? When were they asked if they wanted the fragile welfare state diluted like this? What do and don't they like about immigrants? What was it like here when it was their own country? Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.
Lest you mistake me: I write as a first generation Briton of Central European descent."
"MEL
No it is still the stupidist thing I have ever heard.
Personally I don't know how you can write or think what you do.
An old woman asks the PM about immigration and his first response is to give some waffle and lie about statistics then the moment he thinks he is clear he calls her a bigot (read racist).
JUST HOW THE F%CK IS THAT HAVING AN OPEN AND HONEST DEBATE?
GDP per capita is falling or stagnant, real wages are falling, inflation is rising, house prices are rising despite everything, nearly 10 million UK people doing nothing and you still think the UK needs more people. You are a zealot and an ideologue with no thought at all for those in direct competition with the millions of people who have been allowed into the UK.
I thought Labour were supposed to be the ones who cared about the less well off and would look after their interests, obviously not."
"_AT_Longhaultrucker - the author is a Bulgarian, not a Pole. Indeed, she prefers to remain Bulgarian rather than take up British citizenship, hence she doesn't have a vote.
If you think Polish pilots in WWII justify Polish immigration (?!) then it is probably worth pointing out who Bulgaria was allied with during WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bulgaria#World_War_II
_AT_Barry841
""... so you see, you cannot just move to the UK and get everything free. You need to work or have your own money to support yourself. Myth: Busted.""
Our asylum/immigration/citizenship system is indeed weak, here are a couple of high profile cases for you to ponder (or ""bust"" if you can):
""Single"" mother and seven children (from Afghanistan) given free housing:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23571099-1m-council-home-sparks-review-of-housing-benefits.do
The husband in that family was later ""busted"" for fraud, so perhaps not so single:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2811824/Cigarette-scam-Afghan-has-cost-taxpayers-1million.html
or perhaps this one, two free homes, but only one (large) family?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6936223.ece
Exceptional perhaps, but even one of these instances is equivalent to the tax-take from many Mrs Duffys or the average employed East European migrant.
Strangely, CiF hasn't asked any of the immigrants involved in these cases to write about how welcoming or otherwise they have found the UK. Why not? Wouldn't it help the pro-mass immigration case?
They look like winners to me. Perhaps they could explain to Mrs Duffy why university tuition fees (which Labour promised not to introduce) are now neccesary for her grandchildren? Housing Benefit rising to £20 billion a year may have something to do with it."
"Where have all the earlier comments gone?
There are two issues. Was Mrs Duffy being a bigot? Surely that would be Gordon Brown himself? She simply asked a question about immigration. Gordon Brown answered her with a lie that the number of British in Europe equals the number of Europeans here, when the truth is neither we, nor he, has those statistics, but the evidence of our own eyes and ears tells us that 'balance' certainly does not exist. Then he described her as 'bigotted' simply for bringing up a subject which he wanted silenced.
The second questiuon is why is Milena so offended? Did she really think that there weren't a large number of people who are very unhappy about the scale of immigration from Eastern Europe (never mind elsewhere)? Does she think all the natives of her country would welcome the arrival of huge numbers of immigrants from Russia, Turkey, Romania or China? Would she herself?"
"Some sense on the matter
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8698/
...what this episode reveals is not working class contempt for immigrants , so much as the political elites contempt for the white working class ,,,"
"Milena Popova - You are a BULGARIAN not an eastern european...
Why the Coyness?
Why are you concerned Milena? Bulgarians are not allowed to work in Britain, unlike the 2004 EU eastward expansion members like Poland. But nearly all young Bulgarians are working- either as extremely lowpaid cash in hand slaves or on in high class prestigous Soros finnaced ""open society "" funded exchange to train anglophone janissaries...Thats you Milena!
Bulgaria, for those that do not know, economy is currentlt in turmoill and has a minimum wage of about 200 bulgarian leva...just 110 Euro a month or about 50p per hour yet this is tax at 15% and Bulgaria has a ludicrously expensive obligatory healthcare tax system..But Bulgaria is far from cheap...look at this website www.cba.bg for food prices.
Bulgarians are not known for their ethnic ""tolerance"" -the communist dictator Todor Zhivkov's 1994 name changing campaign for ethnic turks was popular amongst the Bulgar majority..even today Bulgaria has several far right ATTAKA MEP one of who caused popular uproar in bulgaria for calling a hungarian MEP ""a dirty gypsy""..Bulgarians are only european when on the take...
Milena look at your own rezil country first..."
"Yes, yes and YES!
I was furious yesterday. I could hardly contain myself. She was bigoted, no question. To check this out do the replacement test. No idea what that is? Well you just replace the people being attacked (you know, the ones that people are saying it?s ok to use sweeping generalisations against) and replace them with a group that now (thankfully) you can?t say that about anymore without getting shouted down. Black people, gay people. You get the picture. Okay, so now her comment reads ?I don?t know where those black people are all flocking from? and suddenly it is blindingly obvious that she was being bigoted.
You can make it even more personal and make it about your own family and see how you react to that one. Makes you cross when people start accusing you of flocking places and all that implies, doesn?t it. Good.
I was also furious with Gordon Brown for two reasons: Firstly for being a hypocrite and secondly for apologising. He lost whatever moral backbone he had yesterday. He should have explained to her why he called her a bigot and used it as a campaigning tool to champion the role that immigrant play in this country. The implication in some other threads that you are either a higher band tax-paying immigrant or you are a criminal is odious. What about the 60,000 immigrants propping up the NHS in London alone and allowing our way of life to continue?
We need immigrants and I?m certain that most of us can trace our roots back to immigrants. This is an island after all. Has the programme ?Who do you think you are?? taught us nothing?"
"If you're so upset by her opinions, imagine what she might feel about yours.
That's the trouble with freedom. People sometimes use it in ways you don't like. I remain firmly of the view that so long as no actual harm results, people can do/ think/ say as they like. Freedom of speech is rather better than the alternative- something I thought people of the former Soviet bloc might have come to appreciate
But when a Prime Minister cannot articulate a clear and rational answer to a question about his own record on immigration, preferring instead to feign to care in public, then childishly complain afterwards; that's not him exercising freedom, but reneging responsibility."
Milena ..Mrs Duffy is entitled to her opinion , she is after all , a British citizen , and you ( as are many others) are not ... She has the right to say that in an era of increasingly high unemployment , cutbacks in the welfare state etc ..that British citizens come first ...That emphatically does not make her bigoted , racist , xenophobic , A BNP supporter etc . Blame Gordon for not introducing his immigration points system when Germany etc did. Yes you contribute to the overall economy ...but this has the habit of making the rich richer and drives down the wages of poorer indigenous folk ...so its not all positive....
"Mrs Duffy said nothing bad about immigrants. Her concerns are that immigration from eastern europe is too high in the area she lives. She is concerned for her culture and the future of her grandchildren.
Would yopu be happy if 300 english immigrants moved to your area of poland and undercut local wages?"
I ? Milena
"I see the CiF clock is screwed again.
The Amazing Criswell predicts that in In half an hour BigNowitzki will say ....

Now where did I put that theremin?"
How does a Bulgarian get to live in the UK prior to 2007? She was not entitled as Bulgaria was not in the EU, not an illegal immigrant was she?
"Maybe Gillian Duffy is not a bigot. Maybe she's merely ignorant.
""British jobs for British workers""; what's the premise of that line? That merely being born someplace makes you competent to do the job? What a baseless sense of entitlement. If you think that, for equal qualifications and equal pay, a Brit should be given priority over a foreigner for a job (or vice versa), then that is a prejudiced, discriminatory attitude and it makes you a bigot.
The free movement of people from new members of the EU, including Eastern Europeans, is legal; they have the right to live here in the UK just as we have the right to go work in their countries of origin. This is a freedom that is reciprocated to our collective mutual enrichment; indeed, millions of Brits work abroad, in the EU and elsewhere. Should they be send packing home on the basis of ""Albanian jobs for Albanians"" or whatever?"
"Thanks to bigot-gate, for the first time I've agreed with Brown.
The woman is bigoted."
"While I agree with a lot of what you say, Milena, I can assure you that 60 million native Brits are not all like Gillian Duffy. You should be careful not to make yourself look just as bigoted as her.
On a different note, perhaps one reason so few people were standing up in support of Brown is that, amid all the hype about his comments in the car, most news sites (the BBC, for example) didn't actually show any footage of the interview."
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"Read this earlier, when it was doing the rounds on Twitter.
Some interesting points but mainly made me think about how different everyone's internet can be as my twitter feed was full of people 'standing up' against bigotry to the point of quite forcefully slagging off a non-media trained and possibly not that educated pensioner who's personal views had inadvertantly become nationally debated.
I didn't see any shortage of people 'standing up' against her view. In fact, I saw so much standing up against them that it made me worry about some elements of the left's respect and compassion for those whose views differed from their own.
The whole thing is a sad mess and no-one comes out of it well for me. Let's just hope Gordon hasn't handed to the keys to No. 10 to Cameron by gaffing and putting such a left/right polarising issue at the centre of the debate."
"Basically - the cause of all the prejudice is that people do not understand the differences or meanings of the words below:
Immigrant
Illegal immigrant
Economic migrant
Asylum seeker
Refugee
I am sure that a lot of people in Spain are sick of all the UK economic migrants going over there and buying holiday homes they only stay in once or twice a year, running bars and cafes and taking up jobs that Spanish people could have and basically lowering the tone through constant drink, drunk, behaviour. Gordon and Jill are both wrong."
"_AT_cloudmaster
>>Would yopu be happy if 300 english immigrants moved to your area of poland and undercut local wages?<<
She's Bulgarian not Polish!....Actually hundred of silly British are moving into Bulgaria but they are SPENDING money, and being ripped off at prices way above local rate...so the complete reverse.!.
Please Anglos improve you knoledge of geograpgy"
The Guardian , as well as Gordon Brown don't like the white working class .
"Metropolitan leftists vilifiying an innocent working class pensioner- you are doing your cause an immense amount of damage.
Keep at it!"
"_AT_Neverlander
Just because you're ""sorry you feel the way you do"", doesn't make your statement any better or any less racist. I guess it's that sense of entitlement that comes with the passport that Milena was talking about..."
What is going on with the comments? It's like a maze that you walk through and end up back at the start lol.
"Jim UK, you spout the same old tabloid fed lies about immigration being a problem, immigrants taking jobs, social housing etc.
There is undoubtedly a lack of social housing. Who can we blame for that? Thatcher, for selling so much of it off, and subsequent governments for not doing nearly enough to replenish the stock. Having worked for a Housing Association and had phonecalls from people ranting about immigrants taking all the houses, let me just point out that housing is allocated on a points system, one that certainly does not benefit immigrants.
As for the jobs, well, that's the nature of a globalised economy. If people are willing to come here and work hard then fair play to them. In the early 80s plenty of Brits went to work in mainland Europe due to the lack of jobs here. Remember Aufwiedersehn Pet? The right wing press act as if immigration is one way traffic.
It's easy to blame people who look different for all your problems, as opposed to the distant and even abstract seeming structures of power. The right wing press and powers that be know that they can divide and conquer the poor by whipping up hysteria about asylum seekers and benefits and tax scroungers. Nevermind that Rupert Murdoch is the biggest tax cheat in the country, let's have a go at dole scum and single mums. The problems faced by immigrants such as exploitation in work, poor housing etc are problems faced by all poor people."
"Sorry about the triplicate posting Cif went into temporary meltdown.
Honest I'm not an aspiring politician, you know, with their rule of three, ""tell 'em, tell 'em you;ve told 'em, then tell 'em again,"
"Relax Milena. The sainted Duffy is a pawn in all this. She may have been exposed to all the scare mongering in the tabloid press and then blurted out those unfortunate words in the heat of the moment. I found her words offensive, bigoted and ignorant. In her defence she asked other and better questions, which did not get this much attention.
I've met Croatian and Polish people in the UK and have never seen them flocking, swarming, herding, shoaling or engaged in any other animal behaviours. I don't think Duffy would have used the term flocking if she hadn't read it in the Mail or Express.
She even asked where all these eastern europeans were coming from, which gives you an indication of her poor use of language under pressure. Who knows that she actually meant to say? She certainly gave the impression that she believed that tax-paying eastern europeans were depriving her in some unspecified way.
As a descendant of Irish immigrants I can tell you it is nothing new."
"Jim UK, you spout the same old tabloid fed lies about immigration being a problem, immigrants taking jobs, social housing etc.
There is undoubtedly a lack of social housing. Who can we blame for that? Thatcher, for selling so much of it off, and subsequent governments for not doing nearly enough to replenish the stock. Having worked for a Housing Association and had phonecalls from people ranting about immigrants taking all the houses, let me just point out that housing is allocated on a points system, one that certainly does not benefit immigrants.
As for the jobs, well, that's the nature of a globalised economy. If people are willing to come here and work hard then fair play to them. In the early 80s plenty of Brits went to work in mainland Europe due to the lack of jobs here. Remember Aufwiedersehn Pet? The right wing press act as if immigration is one way traffic.
It's easy to blame people who look different for all your problems, as opposed to the distant and even abstract seeming structures of power. The right wing press and powers that be know that they can divide and conquer the poor by whipping up hysteria about asylum seekers and benefits and tax scroungers. Nevermind that Rupert Murdoch is the biggest tax cheat in the country, let's have a go at dole scum and single mums. The problems faced by immigrants such as exploitation in work, poor housing etc are problems faced by all poor people."
I think people who complain about immigrants-even those who express those concerns in language that can border on the 'racist'-are entitled to have concerns about immigrations. It's not as if they are wrong to say there are no problems, there are no issues, and there is no downside to immigration. It can be very difficult (especially for those not necessarily good at expressing themselves) to express such concerns without at times appearing 'bigoted'.
"I am an immigrant, been here since 1980 almost without a break. GiDu is alright in my book. Mili, you need to ask yourself why you were so emotionally affected by this. Is there something you are not acknowledging? People have their own fights to fight, as far as Gillian is concerned, immigrants make her life harder. Is that what you or I want?
If you're an immigrant, go to a non-immigrant and ask them: Do I make you resentful?"
One last point that seems to have been overlooked - TWITTER IS SHIT!
"People seem to be focussing on one or the other being right, whereas from my point of view they are both wrong. The whole system is flawed!
Having recently lived in an area with a higher concentration of Eastern European immigrants, I can sympathise with many of the people complaining about the influx. Having lost his job in the face of the credit crunch, my partner found it difficult to find a job doing even menial, unskilled jobs in our (high unemployment) area, and when he did find a job working in a food processing factory, he then found it difficult to make any friends, because he was in the small minority of low-level English-speaking operatives. So high was the proportion of Eastern European workers, that many of the signs in the factory were in Polish etc. That in itself surprised me greatly, as I have rarely seen bilingual signs in the UK outside of major cities, and this was a little town out in the sticks.
To further illustrate, I recently set up a translation company in the North East and when consulting with Business Link (a government initiative), they informed me that, had I dealt in Eastern European languages, they could have put me in touch with plenty of clients, since they were languages in highest demand in the area.
The immigrants themselves cannot be blamed however, and on this point they have my sympathy. As someone previously stated, many British people feel low-level jobs ""below them"", and so these positions are easy for the taking for incoming immigrants. Our unemployment system is disastrous, as many people are too well-looked after on the benefits system and so have no desire to even look for a job. Our system should be forcing our own residents into work (e.g. stopping relentless paying of JSA etc. to individuals over many years) and using a points system of sorts to assess skilled migrant workers to fill roles where the skills are lacking in the UK. We also need encourage training in those areas where the skills are lacking within our own population, before we start crying about foreigners taking jobs that we did not take the initiative to obtain the skills for ourselves!
I don't think that people object as such to skilled migrant workers. I feel that people have become hysteric about the situation, with record levels of unemployment alongside a seemingly high influx of immigrants.
In response to the writer's comments about asking an immigrant ""how it feels to be so far away from home, to leave your life behind and start again from scratch, and to be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice"", I'd like to point out that the first two are personal choices taken, so deal with them. I did when I lived in Europe!
As for having a voice in the election, though you don't have a vote, you certainly have a voice! There are plenty of native Brits who don't bother voting, who you could be encouraging to vote for someone you think worthy of voting for! That is, provided you think it's worth voting for any party when they are all corrupt to begin with!
On the subject of taxes, again, you were aware that you were going to be taxed at a higher rate when you came here and accepted a job, so self-indulgent whimpering about being hard done to on that score is ridiculous!
Finally, I do not agree that all EU citizens should simply be granted the right to vote here, just because they are residing in our country. In the longer term, many of those migrants return to their home countries, so why should those people be allowed to vote on aspects which could change our country indefinitely?
Being born here, we have a right to vote on the way our country is governed, the same way you have a right to vote in your own countries. If you want to live here and vote on our policies, then you need to EARN that right, I say!"
"I'm American, and would be the first to point out we have plenty of racist idiots in my country. They are a lot more vocal and theatrical here than in the UK, and our racial problems are more out in the open.
But I generally found British racism to be more suttle, widespread, and pervasive. There seems to be a mindset that ascribes certain characteristics to every nationality. They arent always negative stereotypes, sometimes a person would be complimenting said ethnic group, but even then it would reveal a condescending mode of thought that broke down a persons abilities, personality, etc. on their race/ethnicity.
People in the UK tend to seem very conscious of physical characteristics Americans wouldnt pay a moments attention to. They pay closer attention to someones last name, or suttle hints about someones background that reveal they arent really ""one of us"".
Maybe this comes from being a large Island nation, the Japanese also have a reputation of thinking they are inherently better than everyone else.
I dont mean to imply that everyone in the UK is like this, but I can certainly see how someone who isnt of anglo ancestry might feel uncomfortable living there."
"I suspect, like at least one previous poster, that Brown mistakenly heard the woman asking;
'The East Europeans . . .they're all fucking over here . . . ' etc. - which is how I heard it the first (and second) time on the radio.
Maybe that's because amongst my peer group that is not an unusual use of the vernacular.
And amonst his peer group if ' The Thick of It' is anything to go by . . .
Which is probably why he called the meeting 'a disaster'.
Oh well, I actually feel tempted to vote Labour now; just because I think this is one of the most inconsequential; pieces of election news this year, but it has been leapt on by the Murdoch press and their fellow travellers to catapault a party truly containing bigots and hypocrites (the Tories) into majority Government.
It's amazing the amount of self-righteous hot air spewed out over this incident, and I'm sure that the boss of News at Sky will be in for a hefty bonus later in the year - paid, no doubt, out of the profits accrued after the BBC has been reduced to a regional news organisation by our new masters."
"Hey Brits why not go and look at Milena's country version of the BNP its far more scary:
http://www.vestnikataka.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.15
That page is in english use google translate fuction for Bulgarian pages, look at the piccies...lots of hate talk about gypsies, gays, turks etc..but using far more nasty nouns..
Ah and this is Bulgaria Hilter Jugend party:
http://bg.bgns.net/
These parties far right parties get far more of the vote than in the UK..."
"Is Gilian Duffy really a bigot? What she said was quite vague and could be interpreted as both reasonable or bigoted, depending on your point of view.
The rise of this ""faux"" bigotry or ""reasonable concern"" about things like immigration is based on lies and exaggeration. Politicians, including lobby groups, institutions, charities and other vested interests have realised fear is a prime mover in public opinion. So, almost everything is exaggerated to the point that it seems a threat to us all, in some way. The more people you can convince that they or those they care about are under threat and the worse you can make the threat, then the more effective this strategy will be.
The media, mostly for reasons of wanting a good story, but also for political purposes, are more than happy to, not only voice these concerns, often with only passing regard for their veracity, but pour petrol on any flames that there might be.
Everyday we are assailed by a new ""threat"" or an escalation of an existing threat, much of this is about political control, not the reality of avoiding danger of any kind.
So large numbers of the population are in a semi-constant state of fear, of one thing or another. Is it any wonder that many of those might fall foul of politically motivated lies or exaggeration?
Just as I believe calling Mrs. Duffy a bigot is a vast exaggeration, so the fuss over this private opinion expressed by Brown is also without any real sense of perspective.
It would be just as reasonable to be discussing the invasion of the P.M.s privacy by Sky, who kept recording even though it was clear that Brown was no longer speaking publicly and was in a private conversation?"
That's precious! All the answers are wrong. It was 240v, it's been 230v since 1988.
I was posting mocking comments on this last night but in the cold light in day, I had discussions about this in at work today. Everybody agreed that he made a mistake and said it was made in the heat of the moment. Only one person said that she was a bigot but nobody agreed with him.
"And yet you're quite happy to blog on the 'anti-pope' site and admit to being anti religious. Bigoted?
You complain of not having the vote despite being here 10 years....by your own choice because you refuse to give up your Bulgarian citizenship....so whose fault is that?
The NHS, policing, roads, schools, housing, like money, do not grow on trees, they are funded by people of this country. I am fairly certain if someone walked into your home and demanded you pay for their schooling, housing, food and medical bills you would not take kindly to it...maybe you would...at least the first one, or two, or three...just how many are you prepared to fund personally and put up in your own home?
I imagine when it is up close and personal it might be a bit different.
When the British army had to be sent to the Balkans to help sort out the rival ethnic and cultural factions you might have thought someone in your position would have taken note and learnt something about society, race, culture, conflicting group interests and the resultant bloodshed.
Seems not."
"""But pay higher-rate income tax. I contribute to the UK economy, I contribute to UK society. I probably pay into the tax system more than I get back out of it.""
Milena, what you obviously don't understand, or refuse to understand is that if you (and other eastern Europeans) weren't here there would be a job for a British person to pay ""higher-rate income tax"".
That is what is annoying British people.
Surely British voters should have the right to be able to say so?
Or should the new arrivals be dictating to the people whose homeland this is what and what not they are allowed to say
Surely reaction in Russia or the Czech Republic would be similar under reversed circumstances?
No need to go overboard with the crying one way or another."
"I hope no one forwards this thread to the BNP. Imagine the political capital they could make out of a horde of sneering middle class New Labour Guardianistas villifying a loyal Old Labour voting OAP.
The ship truly is sinking, and you've only got yourselves to blame. And Gordon naturally."
"Fantastic idea BigNowitzki.
Could you imagine Labour or Tories EVER suggesting that? Good ideas may be anathema to those parties but screwing their bestest buddies into actually having to pay (imagine!) for the luxury they live in. You're killing two birds with one home, all new immigrants go into unused second homes (a scandal on it's own when one considers housing problems) and then people in communities which really suffer (and there are tons of them, of all colours) might be allowed to crack on with their job without having to change their plans every five minutes."
"If, as some suspect, Labour's bullshit machine has signed up people to this site to defend the buffoon Brown and denigrate Mrs Duffy it shows a curious attitude toward the very people they are supposed to represent.
Where can they go on polling day?
I suspect that the other Nick will do well out of this."
brown believes in multiculturalism,thats why he as got a open door policy on immigration,and brown is not interested on how much it cost in benefits,not just for immigrants for are own people who cannot find work as well,unemployment is rising fast,and browns trying to fool us all that he as a tougher immigration law in place.
"I seriously laughed out loud for the first time at this point.

I stopped laughing thinking I was a victim of an April Fool at this point.

Even Jesus nearly wept at this stage.
Good God but you need to wise up and grow a set."
"As a central european living in my own country, I think this article is a bit rich and I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but...
The author must know what it's like in central europe and how we treat immigrants.
Typical and common examples -
Slovak women work in Czech supermarkets. Slovak is an almost identical language to Czech. I have witnessed on several occasions Czechs refusing to answer the Slovak - saying they don't understand them.
West Europeans are often treated with little more than contempt in most public offices and are often blackmailed by police for trumped up offences.
Ukrainian - illegal immigrants paid almost non existant wages for some of the most difficult jobs in construction, road building, etc.
There are bigots - and worse in all countries so cool down.
However - the Brits should cool it also - all countries suffer from immigartion and I dare say that as the world economy evolves - you may find yourselves having to emigrate for work.."
She probably really wanted to ask about Asians (Muslims) but was frightened of being labelled a "racist". This just shows how far Gordon Brown has lost touch with ordinary, normal, working-class people, that he doesn't recognise one when he sees one!
"I am sorry for both Mrs. Duffey and Mr. Brown. When I listen to Mrs.Duffey, I hear the echo of the media. I am an immigrant myself, but I do not think she is against immigrants. But her borrowed vocabulary (flocking) is xenophobic. And that word, I believe, triggered the word 'bigot' in Mr.Brown's mind.
Being an immigrant in this country is not easy and so is being in the working class and being disabled, and many more."
"MiddleEnglandLefty
29 Apr 2010, 3:38PM
SoAnnoyed
29 Apr 2010, 3:29PM
_AT_LordSummerisle
My, there DO appear to be a large number of posters with little to no previous posting history queueing up here today to call Gillian Duffy a bigot.
Thanks for pointing that out, LSi, because I have been in shock since yesterday at the vilification of that woman by so many on these threads.
The accounts are obviously all being set up by Millbank, or wherever it is that the Labour media bunker is situated these days. Shameful.
More paranoid hysteria, I've just clicked on a load of comments supporting Duffy that are from first time posters, get a grip.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again with all due respect that comment by Lord S ( which when you look at the posts recently is visibly true ) is no more than all those other posts sugegsting Cameron and Sky set the whole thing up"
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty

That may be true and I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. The dark arts of sock puppetry are practiced by all sides of the political divide."
"Is Gilian Duffy really a bigot? What she said was quite vague and could be interpreted as both reasonable or bigoted, depending on your point of view.
The rise of this ""faux"" bigotry or ""reasonable concern"" about things like immigration is based on lies and exaggeration. Politicians, including lobby groups, institutions, charities and other vested interests have realised fear is a prime mover in public opinion. So, almost everything is exaggerated to the point that it seems a threat to us all, in some way. The more people you can convince that they or those they care about are under threat and the worse you can make the threat, then the more effective this strategy will be.
The media, mostly for reasons of wanting a good story, but also for political purposes, are more than happy to, not only voice these concerns, often with only passing regard for their veracity, but pour petrol on any flames that there might be.
Everyday we are assailed by a new ""threat"" or an escalation of an existing threat, much of this is about political control, not the reality of avoiding danger of any kind.
So large numbers of the population are in a semi-constant state of fear, of one thing or another. Is it any wonder that many of those might fall foul of politically motivated lies or exaggeration?
Just as I believe calling Mrs. Duffy a bigot is a vast exaggeration, so the fuss over this private opinion expressed by Brown is also without any real sense of perspective.
It would be just as reasonable to be discussing the invasion of the P.M.s privacy by Sky, who kept recording even though it was clear that Brown was no longer speaking publicly and was in a private conversation?"
"Milena
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do and you should have no reason to be. You can call it an island mentality if you wish but there are a lot of people who feel exactly like Mrs Duffy that it does seem like we have been invaded in some parts of the country.
Migrants make a huge contribution to the economy. Most of the landwork and food processing and packing industry where I am from would collapse without them. What gets people upset is that this has come from our membership of the EU which when we joined in 1973 was comprised of the leading economies of europe and so there was little resultant immigration by us joining. However when former eastern bloc countries joined the labour pool was expanded hugely by educated people like yourself who earned a pittance in comparison to your skills and knowledge and saw the opportunity to earn a lot more by doing relatively menial and undemanding work that paid better than their skills really should warrant and took over jobs that were done in the past by people born and bred here. Its this section of the community that now feels the strain because they don;t have skills to do better paid work and can't or won't get lower paid jobs as they've been taken or they don't want to work as they can live off benefits better.
Its the fact that its a system that cannot be changed that allows things to be as they are that gets people angry which sneering media and political types then label as bigoted or racist when in my opinion its not the case.
Once again I'm sorry you feel the way you do. All you and your fellow migrants have done is to work the system to your benefit and thats no fault of yours."
"Milena,
I can't quite get over your reaction.

Actually genuinely broke down in tears? But did you really, truthfully break down in tears too?

Maybe you were?

Courage to tweet? Oh please....

Maybe the other 49 didn't think she was a bigoted woman?

It sounds like you well on the way already?

You must spend a lot of your life angry?

So you didn't feel angry when you first heard the comments then?

You know what? I don't have a vote here in Spain either, and I guess Spanish politicians probably don't care much about me either - though I can't say it ever bothered me....

Oh Lord.... Here you are writing a column in a national newspaper, and you use it to wonder how you could get some leverage?
You don't think that it's a wasted opportunity?

I keep asking myself if you're serious - actually genuinely serious....

What did she ever do to you? Gillian Duffy didn't make you feel like this - you've worked yourself into a tizzy all on your own.

Could you elaborate on the 'landing yourself in jail' bit? I'm mystified....

You want to try travelling on one some time....

I think most of us do. I am an immigrant, I'm the grandchild of immigrants, and I know as many immigrants in the UK as native born citizens.

No need - I'll ask myself.
For the record, I don't think Gillian Duffy is a bigot - I think she's worried, probably not very well informed, and not very good at expressing her concerns.
Now what's your excuse for your vitriolic attack on her? What do you think she would feel if she read this article?"
".
You make it sound as though immigrants move to a new country out of the goodness of their altruistic hearts!
My parents moved countries twice, and they did it one purely selfish reason - a better life for themselves and their children."
I'm disgusted Gordon Brown apologised for calling a biggot a biggot, I would have actually respected him if he'd of said it to her face
"_AT_Toftyatno10

Certainly not. They're not my cup of tea by any means. I can, however, understand why some people are moving towards them when mainstream politicians are so quick to write off their genuine concerns as bigotry."
"_AT_dogsvomit
The BNP do not have ""genuine concerns"" they are a bunch of rascists and holocaust deniers and whilst they have the right to air their ""views"" that does not mean we do not have the right to call them what they are and condemn their vile beliefs.."
"HappHazzard
Did you even read what I said? This isn't a discussion about the minimum wage or how people need to be paid enough in order to live (which, of course, I agree with you about), this is about how some (yes, I said some, not all) Brits would rather be out of work than do what they consider to be 'menial' jobs. I never once mentioned pay or conditions of such jobs, just that there were many immigrants who were happy to do them and some Brits who would rather not."
"The point Mrs Duffy might have made if she had been more articulate or had time to think about it (or had been give access to better education instead of leaving school at 14, probably, as 'factory fodder') is that 'mass immigration' was never a government policy. It was something imposed from above with no democratic mandate. And also, like many things in this country, there was no actual policy or planning involved in it, no expansion of infrastructure, housing, etc.
I personally don't agree with the capitalistic use of cheap (disenfranchised) immigrant labour as a solution to a country's economic problems - problems which are really down to (taking short cuts!) a lack of training, a lack of investment, and at another level, a lack of respect by society for people (even teachers) in this country who perform the less glamorous and 'menial tasks' (as Mrs Duffy did in her working life.) At the other extreme I don't like the idea of a 'points system' that poaches the 'best minds' from economically less successful (or less fortunate) countries and so deprives them of the minds that might help them improve things.
There's a mythology that Britain stands for fair play and fairness, where's the evidence?"
"_AT_AllyF

Well the choices seem to be between that and forming a mob and hounding them out, and obviously you're not advocating that. I don't see what's so offensive - that's exactly what the White British community had to do when all your black and Asian neighbours arrived. Make an effort to educate themselves and understand the changes.
Besides, what's to understand - you know the situation already. There's cheap housing in your area - these people are EU citizens perfectly entitled to take advantage of it - some of your neighbours are discombobulated by the resulting change in demographic.
And? The onus is on them to further their understanding and in that way decrease their confusion. Where did 'how fucking dare you' come from?"
"Yet more Middle Class contempt for the working class.
The working class live in the areas where immigrants are dumped and herded into by the government. The local services in these areas are overstretched.
In the leafy Middle Class suburbs, there are very few immigrants using the local services, and they certainly don't have to compete for housing and jobs with them. In fact, they benefit most from cheap labour.
I say, place asylum seekers in the empty second homes of rich people, and house them in Middle Class areas rather than sink estates. Those who benefit from cheap labour can pay for them as well.
As for immigrants who come here to work, local services should be better funded in those places where they reside.
Essentially, it is the government's fault."
"the london media ie the guardian has picked on a 66 year old widow and villified her to protect a politician.
This lady was a labour supporter and had some concerns, she did not seek out the prime minister and unfortunately for her she did not express her concerns in a way that the metropolitian elite would.
Ie she should have said why did you say only 15,000 eastern europeans would come when in fact nearly a million have.
Is it right that many individuals especially in the BME community have faced a real decrease in wages such as builders, taxi drivers and other low skill occupations. This is a fact as individuals i know can attest to wage rates dropping and even self employed mini cab drivers i speak to each week can confirm that it is getting harder to make a living. Many of these individuals come from the BME community.
I see this as a labour way which has become the natural way to attact and to destroy the reputation of any individual who disagrees with you.
By the way it was gordon who stated ""british jobs for british workers"" and a voter asks him about this and is attacked."
"Perhaps the author (and the Labour drones) could just let us know what exactly is the politically correct way to ask the Prime Minister about immigration (and get 10 seconds of a valuable answer).
It'll be a lot easier if you could publish the acceptable code to avoid Gordon's embarrassment AND we could discuss an issue without the accusations flying."
Such a relief to find your article after a day of listening to the worlds media agreeing that GB should have apologised. Nonsense, her views are ridiculous and have no place in a country that is wonderful because we have a diverse range of people living in it.
Milena, I have posted your piece on facebook and asked all my British friends here in the UK to read it. I am an American immigrant here in the UK, although with no intention of becoming a British subject. I also work hard and pay loads of taxes here, and I am resigned to having no vote and little say in the political system. Your thoughts really resonated with me. Coming from a nation of immigrants, I am unreservedly pro-immigration and I find the British attitude toward the subject ranges from blithely hypocritical to sickeningly xenophobic. The attitude towards me, and other Americans living here, is very odd, because on the one hand they admire us and the government seems to copy everything the US govt does (especially the stupid things) but still they treat me as if I were a little thick (and I assure you I am not, not even a little!) I always think, similarly to you, if it's this bad for me, how bad is it for the poor, the unemployed, the dodgily documented, the non-English speaker, the dark-skinned? (And a few African-American friends of mine have experienced blatant discrimination in travelling, profiling, and from the immigration authority.) Yes, an honest debate on immigration would be a welcome change, but instead they focus only on GB's "gaffe". Bleh.
"I really like Mrs Duffy. She seems like a good, solid citizen who cares about others, and who has a pretty sharp take on political and economic issues. I like the fact that she wasn't afraid to (politely but forthrightly) speak her mind to the Prime Minister.
The face that her innocent, well-founded question caused the writer of this piece to break down into 'great having sobs' makes me chuckle.
Since you're such a delicate flower, Ms Popova, perhaps Britain isn't the place for you. There's a frighteningly large portion of the population who tend to speak their mind."
"As a fellow EU immigrant...you've got to get real about this. Intolerance and bigotry are natural human conditions and while that of course doesn't excuse actions or words in that spirit, it puts it in context.
Is it really so awful that a simple, naive old biddy (who may or may not be bigoted) has said that? How many immigrants do you think she knows? What do you think she knows about immigration policies or the econimic realities of life? If at all, be angry about the fact that the UK government has not been proactive about engaging with its population about immigration, allowing a raft of prejudices and falsehoods to grow.
On the flipside, consider these:
1. It is a fact that there are, in some areas, a disproportionately large number of Eastern European immigrants (just as in other areas, there may be loads of Asian/Black/Blue/Pink immigrants). Why can somebody not question that?
2. I don't know (perhaps I missed it in your article) which part of Eastern Europe you are from, but what sort of reaction do you think a bigoted comment about the Roma or about black people made by a local in, for example, Czechoslovakia or Poland, would have generated?"
"_AT_Milena Popova: How dare you. How utterly, utterly dare you. I can't better AllyF's post but I will still tell you of my deep, visceral, anger at reading what you wrote:

You are the single most condescending person to have ever written an article for CiF. I am still reeling in shock that The Guardian would publish a post with that paragraph in it.
I am an immigrant to the UK, too - but you know what? I became a naturalised citizen. I have a British passport. More importantly, I have the vote. I vote as a British citizen in all elections. I have a house, friends, and family here and I have made the UK my home for the rest of my life.
And you come here, don't bother to get citizenship, and wail like a spoilt child that all 60 million UK citizens hold exactly the same views as one single person who happened to be on the telly. To tell you what I truly think of you would get me modded off CiF, so I will simply say that you need professional assistance with your attitude as an immigrant to your host country."
In Russia, there's a joke:....We've unloaded all those ungrateful parasite countries like Poland onto the West, now they even have that cheapest of Harlots Bulgaria...Ah and the idiots are even in our old quagmire of Afganistan.....
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

Try not to confuse asylum seekers with other migrants. Of course asylum seekers don't need to financially support themselves. Those who simply wish to migrate to the UK do."
"Look at the Bulgarian diversity in action against their own citizens....
Can you imagine what these thugs would do if there was a wave of outsiders
http://kurdjali.tk/"
"_AT_ exiledlondoner
Thank god somebody said that!! The whole thing is just unnecessarily hysterical! I can picture her on the Jeremy Kyle show breaking down into her sobs haha"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

Try not to confuse asylum seekers with other migrants. Of course asylum seekers don't need to financially support themselves. Those who simply wish to migrate to the UK do."
Do you think Rochdale is a "wonderful" place to live?
Yup. When a proper historical accounting is done, it will be seen that class prejudice was at the root of the pro-immigration, pro-multicult mania. The Fabian types always despised the working classes but had to pretend to care about them. Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.
"oh are we still talking about the straw man debate argument over a seemingly extreme right wing issue broadcast by a right wing media in an election where we have the choice between a right wing party or a right wing party or a right wing party ?
Seeing as how that petty little simpleton storm in a teacup suits all the Neo parties so conveniently because it means none of the Neo-Trio have to talk about any REAL ISSUES it means it suits all of them perfectly.
The perfect distraction. The perfect smokescreen.
Hiding the question of: Why is there only the ""choice"" of three right wing parties?"
Whoops. Excuse the multiple posts. There seems to be something wrong with the posting system for this thread. Maybe it's just the volume.
"maraq 4:57
Its the way you tell 'em..."
I agree with all you say. As soon as I saw the news unfolding yesterday, I thought, why are they harranging Gordon Brown and NOT Gillian Duffy for her comments? I blogged about it: http://sandy-watson.blogspot.com/2010/04/bigotgate.html
"I understand your feeling, because I am disillusioned with this media immigrant bashing which is very prevalent in Britain.
But its hard to put all the responsability on the ""Bigoted woman"". She has been moulded by the media. Not just her, tonnes of other Britons too. Including my father, who himself too was once an immigrant. I blame the media, for adding a aura of negativity around immigration, feeding the average British mind. But certain sections of the media do this deliberately, and they fully understand there affect on the common mind."
"My father was an Eastern European immigrant to the UK; he joined the RAF and played a small but significant role in the defeat of fascism. After the war he was offered the choice of low-paid manual work or sodding off back to Eastern Europe: he chose manual work (was not too keen on Eastern Europe after a two year spell in a Siberian concentration camp between 1939 and 1942). He deeply respected, appreciated and lauded the benefits of British society (council housing, health care, free education, a decent wage if you worked all hours of the day and night - he did after all support two families, one in England and one in Eastern Europe with constant remittances) and never had a bad word to say about his adopted country - however, many of the British he had to work with and serve were not so generous towards him, and he swallowed their racial abuse without ever falling to that same, low level of ignorance and xenophobia.
However, my own anger at what I witnessed at first-hand of British bigotry has never really left me: seeing the person you most love and respect treated like shit leaves its mark on your whole being. I now live far away from the UK, have done so for almost 20 years, and would never come back to live in your country, not even if you paid me.
The British have roamed the world dominating, exploiting, abusing, creating wars to suit their geo-political and economic requirements, financing and benefiting from the slave trade, inventing germ warfare in North America, and concentration camps in South Africa, and in more recent times of course we have the highly questionable involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not forgetting the British arms trade, and all the authoritarian shites the Brits have helped prop up around the world (Indonesia, Burma, Saudi Arabia to name but a few).
I'm afraid there are lots of Mrs Duffies spewing out similar vitriol; there always have been, and there probably always will?"
Interesting piece at Salon
"james317a
You are right that mass immigration was not government policy, you are wrong that it was ""imposed from above"". Migration between countries is the result of millions of individual decisions, it's not something that can be commanded.
Anti-immigration people keep going on about the need for a debate about immigration. If this is a serious point and not just code for a xenophobic rant then one important thing to do is to understand the reasons behind those millions of individual decisions, what were the changes that made people act one way rather than another, what can governments realistically do to manage the situation. Trouble is, try and have that debate and you get swamped by the Mr Angry's who don't know and don't care and certainly have no intention of addressing their ignorance."
Yep, the advice "better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it" is largely lost on many British.
"God, what an appalling, whiny little rant this is
As usual, the Mash neatly skews it and many of the comments
I'm sure they won't mind me reproducing...
""Meaning-wise, 'bigot' has been on shaky ground for quite some time and, like most bad things, it's entirely the fault of The Guardian.
Guardian readers think anyone who doesn't love The Wire is a bigot. They think anyone who hasn't had an interesting experience in a two-star hotel in Ho Chi Minh City is a bigot. They think anyone who doesn't like Greco-Javanese fusion food is a bigot.
""Meanwhile, anyone who hasn't read a book about the right-wing media conspiracy against Hezbollah is the absolute worst kind of bigot and of course they now think I'm an appalling bigot for pointing that out."""
The reason so many people from Eastern Europe flocked here is that the labour government approved an open door policy expecting 40,000 or so instead of 500,000 plus. When France , Spain and Germany did not give eastern europeans the same rights it was inevitable that we would be flooded. This is Blair and Browns heritage and in hard times we will all pay for this in many ways
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Milena - I found your article interesting reading, but how very dare you speak out of line with the established parameters of free speech in Cif! The cheek of it!!
Sybantcho's

wouldn't be as acceptable as it seems to be in respect of ""people like you"" if applied to a black or asian person complaining about institutional racism. It would be roundly condemned. Some strange relativism going on. That you felt this sickening is the point.
This election has proved once and for all that we can't have an open and honest debate about anything anymore. The semantic and semiotic thought police and intense media scrum and 'LIVE!' blogging is destroying any semblance of debate or discussion. I despair.

wolfiesback. Please tell me you're being ironic. The media aren't attaching her. Jesus."
Alternatively gkelly, that huge chip so many "white working class" carry around on their shoulders might be the root.
"wolfiesback
""Is it right that many individuals especially in the BME community have faced a real decrease in wages such as builders, taxi drivers and other low skill occupations. This is a fact as individuals i know can attest to wage rates dropping and even self employed mini cab drivers i speak to each week can confirm that it is getting harder to make a living. Many of these individuals come from the BME community. ""
Then they will have parents and grandparents who themselves undercut the the locals wages when they started working here, no? Or not? I don't know so I'm asking a question, not stating a fact.
As someone who uses African run mini cabs to get me home after a night out I already find it incredibly expensive - on what grounds should I seek out a firm charging more?
I do not pick Africans deliberately - they are simply there at 4 in the morning and ready and willing to run me back to South London. I'd get in a white English geezers car if he were sat there.
I'm unaware of ever hearing a White English person saying: ""Phone a cab - and make sure it's the most expensive cab company in town as I like the driver to be on at least 40 quid an hour.""
The African mini cab firms will be replaced by others, on a long enough timeline, I guess."
"We have had over a few short years the largest influx of people in British history. It matters not who they are or how lovely they are. The author is suggesting that many peoples experience and concern must not be spoken about or thought about. But we should think about it. The more people we have the more unsustainable our numbers become. We are already reliant on energy and food imports and more than twice our sustainable population number. Oil will become more expensive and we need it to live.
Two things were worrying about GBs outburst.
1 that he could not even think about our need to balance people and what we use. How will we ever do it if the EU ebbs and flows. How will we ever just plan for services not to mention afford them?
2 He seemed not ""very well"" and unable to cope. These outbursts happen a lot. I think he has been depressed off and on for years poor man but it not encouraging in a PM."
Good grief - what a load of bigoted stereotyping .......
and yours is nothing but an ignorant racist rant hammy966
"Milena. You say you feel disenfranchised but believe me so do many, many British people - especially on this issue of immigration. You will read comments on CiF that immigration is always raised at every election. To a certain extent this is true - but only for it to be quickly slapped down as racist. We have never had a full and honest public debate on the subject. It is largely highjacked by the BNP on the one hand and the extreme left on the other.
There ARE many issues connected with immigration which concern lots of people - and quite rightly. And they have nothing to do with racial identity. I have Polish friends and have nothing but good will towards them but this is an issue of numbers. For a start when Poland and other East European countries came into the EU we were told by our Government that around 13,000 people would come here to work. In fact - and not just on the word of tabloid papers - around 300,000 people came in. Yes, we all have stories of ""Polish plumbers"" who work hard and do a very good job and contribute lots to this country but there is a downside too. The need for extra housing has grown and grown. Where I live the local authority is building estates on back gardens and flood plains. Many employers have used immigrant labour to pay the minimum wage where, before, they had to pay a more decent wage. Unemployed British - especially those who have little or no prospect of a skilled job - understandably resent the sort of jobs they might once have got going to foreigners. Hospitals are under pressure. A school I know had to handle a sudden influx of more than 40 Polish children in one go. They learn the English language very quickly and are mostly lovely children but they all add to the pressure on our already-stretched facilities. We are a small island. How many more people can we take in without causing serious social strain?"
And I apologise for sharing the air of this country so the likes of hammy966 can breathe ........
"I'm afraid, unlike the poster assumes, I do not know any of the thousands of eastern european migrant workers who have moved into my city over the last decade socially - many do not have sufficient language skills to get the simlilar types of office-based roles which I work at (when I can get it). In fact, judging from pesonal experience at the local Tesco's, they dont have the language skills to be able do mdo the jobs which they work at.
I do however, have a brother-in-law who trained (at his own expense) as an electrician - but couldn't afford to take jobs at the post-training rates offered and still pay his mortgage, because he was undercut by EU migrant workers.
I do have a neice who, given her non-academic focus, probably wont even be able to get her first job due to being undercut by migrant workers. I care about the prospects for her, far more than them.
Now, I appreciate that many of the migrants take jobs which British workers wont take. I would say that them not being filled would not always be a bad thing, if the effect of taking those jobs is to drive down wage rates such that the individuals born and brought up here, who have no opportunity to migrate, cant earn a living wage doing them. And, while it may benefit some to have plumbing work, or carpentry done at cut rates, I do feel that it simply displaces individuals who I do know, who were working in these trades, out of business and onto benefits.
And I feel that the problem could be attacked from both ends - we could generate tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of individuals who might be prepared to take on menial minimum-wage tasks here in the UK. My proposal (which should be first on the list of spending cuts for ANY new government) is to stop completely benefits to individuals who can be considered to be still to be supported by their parents - the 20-something layabouts who still sponge completely off mummy and daddy but yet are entitled to £50pw JSA from the government despite never having worked. Seems fair - I get nothing myself, despite having worked for over 20 years (unfortunately not more than one out of the two most recent) as I am deemed to be totally supported by my wife.
At least they might be too busy to slate a 60+ woman who has contributed more than they ever have, with stupid 'right on' comments, simply for using an inelegant turn of phrase like 'flocking'.
If it was bigoted to think that simply raising the GDP of the UK marginally by using cheap immigrant labour, while reducing the average income for virtually everyone else, is not beneficial to more than a small minority... I'd own up to it proudly, and would vote BNP instead."
the point is that british people have never liked immigrants. It started with the Romans and then through Picts, Angles,Saxons, French et al. The only people tolerant of immigrants are other immigrants however long they have been here,be it 1000years or last week. This new influx may look peaceful but jobs are being lost because unscrupulous employers can make more money by paying under minimum pay, much like the aristos would have welcomed Hitler to keep the paysanos in line. So yes peaceful immigration but there is an undercurrent of depriving the indigenous just as there has been since 55 BC but without the killing. It ain't good.
"Look at Milena's country lovely Bulgaria a its Hitler Jugend-
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_32FEB60Zmv4/RtgmkC6vrgI/AAAAAAAABM8/GHL3w_AFPrs/s400/gvardia_rasate.JPG
Milena love you really are a first class hypocrite....!
And remember Bulgaria has had no migration its population is falling rapidly...Bulgarians are just sore since Moscow cut the subsidies, and their little mafia state has never recovered..."
If people were prepared to have "a full and honest public debate" on immigration then they wouldn't have been in a scrum to slap down Nick Clegg for suggesting a practical alternative to having long term illegal immigrants permanently in the black economy.
"Hmm, since I left school I've had 22 years of continuous employment. I've dragged myself out of bed and gone off to work an eight hour day around 5,000 times.
When did I become middle class?"
"I'm afraid, unlike the poster assumes, I do not know any of the thousands of eastern european migrant workers who have moved into my city over the last decade socially - many do not have sufficient language skills to get the simlilar types of office-based roles which I work at (when I can get it). In fact, judging from pesonal experience at the local Tesco's, they dont have the language skills to be able do mdo the jobs which they work at.
I do however, have a brother-in-law who trained (at his own expense) as an electrician - but couldn't afford to take jobs at the post-training rates offered and still pay his mortgage, because he was undercut by EU migrant workers.
I do have a neice who, given her non-academic focus, probably wont even be able to get her first job due to being undercut by migrant workers. I care about the prospects for her, far more than them.
Now, I appreciate that many of the migrants take jobs which British workers wont take. I would say that them not being filled would not always be a bad thing, if the effect of taking those jobs is to drive down wage rates such that the individuals born and brought up here, who have no opportunity to migrate, cant earn a living wage doing them. And, while it may benefit some to have plumbing work, or carpentry done at cut rates, I do feel that it simply displaces individuals who I do know, who were working in these trades, out of business and onto benefits.
And I feel that the problem could be attacked from both ends - we could generate tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of individuals who might be prepared to take on menial minimum-wage tasks here in the UK. My proposal (which should be first on the list of spending cuts for ANY new government) is to stop completely benefits to individuals who can be considered to be still to be supported by their parents - the 20-something layabouts who still sponge completely off mummy and daddy but yet are entitled to £50pw JSA from the government despite never having worked. Seems fair - I get nothing myself, despite having worked for over 20 years (unfortunately not more than one out of the two most recent) as I am deemed to be totally supported by my wife.
At least they might be too busy to slate a 60+ woman who has contributed more than they ever have, with stupid 'right on' comments, simply for using an inelegant turn of phrase like 'flocking'.
If it was bigoted to think that simply raising the GDP of the UK marginally by using cheap immigrant labour, while reducing the average income for virtually everyone else, is not beneficial to more than a small minority... I'd own up to it proudly, and would vote BNP instead."
"This is an argument about the failure of mainstream politics to address the fears of poor communities as it is about the massive divide between rich and poor in this country. Their anger should be focussed on the business leaders who build their vast profits on cheap labour. Not the poor men and women just trying to make a better life for themselves that end up living a near slave like existence.
Surely Britain has been a multicultural society since the Romans starting coming here for their holidays. The only problem is the government got caught on the back foot with the accession of the A8 countries. All politicians have consistently failed to get to grips with the concerns of those people who dont have foreign workers living in their communities. According to the recent report by the IPPR if more people lived next door to foreign nationals they would worry about them less. Is it not important for communities to integrate and come together socially, why isn't the government doing something about this. Or the communities themselves.
Since the influx the government has not gathered adequate statistics about people coming and going. I have heard anecdotal evidence that people tend to come and work here for a few years and then go home. With the downturn in the economy they are less likely to come anyway. But we don't have a true picture because of a lack of statistics. So the racists can make up whatever they want and pander to the fears of people already feeling alienated. When you are alienated and feel like you are getting the dirty end of the stick you might accept any simplistic answer as the reason for your pain.
I believe that if you are desperate enough to work you will do anything, too many people have the ""i'm not doing that"" attitude, fair enough but if you will not do it then someone else will.
If you are willing to come here work hard and pay your dues then we should be welcoming you. Also i thought the migrant workforce provide a knock on effect for businesses to employ more skilled labour up the chain as previously argued here
If Brown thought she was a bigot he should have the courage of his convictions and take a stand. I work in the NHS and its like the United Nations which is one of the reasons that I think it is so fantastic. People from all over the world come here and give 100% care to people as if they were their own family its amazing. Often in difficult circumstances and having to put up with various levels of bigotry themselves. I think the NHS would be a lot poorer without them. If ""indigenous"" people dont want to look after their own with the compassion that i have seen time and again from international workers then fair enough. We need more of that empathy in our society anyway. He should show true leadership and take this argument full on and explain why Britain is a better place because of the sacrifices of people from other countries. Not to mention the Polish Pilots that helped us win the battle of Britain and who the BNP put on their propaganda last year. We laughed about that in our house. Or the many hundreds of thousands of commonwealth soldiers during the second world war. Or the Gurkha, or people from other British dependent territories who serve in our armed forces today.
They all make great sacrifices to come here, to work here and contribute to local services and NHS through TAX and NI just like the rest of us, and not only that some of them are even willing to die for us too.
It might be a shame what GB said but its a bigger shame that he has not properly dealt with the issues in the first place."
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"gkelly
""Immigration finally gave them the excuse they needed to be able to unleash their contempt on the proletarian masses and feel good about it at the same time.""
To be fair to the ""Fabian types"" when my ex-boss married a women he met while working abroad then they came back to this country to build a life and family the ""fabian types"" didn't seem interested in this working class man's choices.
Do you think airports are built by ""fabian types"" as a way of undermining local holidays, slyly encouraging the working classes to contract skin cancer and food poisoning abroad?
Is pretty much everything a fabian conspiracy to kill off the working classes, really?
Like:
unemployment - a useful tool to destroy the spirit of the working classes
employment - a useful tool to destroy the spirit of the working classes"
"This is from Milena's country:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_32FEB60Zmv4/RtgmkC6vrgI/AAAAAAAABM8/GHL3w_AFPrs/s400/gvardia_rasate.JPG
discracful isn't it?"
"_AT_Milena:

How dare you say something like that about someone of whom you know so little. Your whole piece is a childish rant but it veers into bullying right there - and dare I say, you've shown yourself up for being a 'bigot' yourself for the implied assumptions behind your statement.
And it's especially rich that you mention the citizenship test, since you yourself have so flagrantly NOT taken it. Or if you have, you haven't passed it. How do I know this? You identified yourself as 'disenfranchised' (as if someone took away your right to vote, hmmph) which I take to mean that you are not someone with voting rights as a UK citizen. Correct?
Guardian, you publish so many things that are appalling for a wide variety of reasons, but this particular piece is just plain trolling for hits on your part. There may be a sober point to make in the general direction of this author's piece but her piece as it is written is shockingly bad."
"_AT_ Wardinator

For the record what Mrs Duffy said was:

Which doesn't sound like ""fucking Eastern Europeans"" to me (nor if you do actually take the trouble to listen to what she said, clue: youtube, given her intonation, could it be misheard as ""where are they all fucking from"", before that one is trotted out.)
What she said was one sentence in the middle of four minutes of forthright discussion with Gordon, such as ...

... which are all pretty reasonable topics in the context of an election.
I think it was the 4 minutes of direct un-scripted questioning Gordon didn't like, not the one 8 second reference to immigrants. I think he used the word 'bigoted' in the sense of 'opinionated'.
""She's just the sort of bigoted woman that says she used to vote labour"" ... that would be one who believes in ""education, health service, and looking after people who are vulnerable""."
"Mrs Duffy did not say anything bigoted. She made her points in a reasonable and measured way. Immigration wasn't even her main point.
You guys need to face the facts that there is a great deal of concern about unmeasured immigration into this country - not from racists but from working people.
The inability of Guardian journos, Governments et al to face up to this will only serve to fuel bigotry."
"Well done Milena,
I hope you saw OZKT29B's excellent reply to AllyF's post."
Lots of sock puppets kicking around this thread.
"Good article, Milena, something that needed saying.
I write as one of the many thousands of British citizens living and working in Eastern Europe - the Czech Republic in this case. I enjoy a high level of acceptance here, and I would like to think that those making the opposite journey could be similarly accepted. As thinking, feeling human beings we are all in this together. But it's not so, evidently. Shame on those who make no attempt to empathize with the stranger and let the tabloid press do their thinking - I use the term loosely, you understand - for them."
Good job these lot will be out soon, they were on the tip of inventing thoughtcrime.
"I've still not figured out what Ms Duffy said that was meant to be bigoted.
""flocking eastern europeans"" is an odd phrase, but, while it might not be true, it doesn't appear to bigoted.
I assume her point is that very large numbers of eastern european immigrants have arrived in her area, and that that is a bad thing.
That simply isn't bigotry. It might be bad because the roads haven't expanded to match the population increase. It might be bad because her neighbours are now all 30yr olds working 16hr days that don't speak good English, instead of retired 60yr olds who she can have a chat with over the garden fence.
I'm baffled by the fuss.
But I'm more baffled at the idea that any one person, immigrant, european, eastern or otherwise could possibly give a damn one way or the other what one old woman thinks. Weird."
"I totally agree Milena...thank you for having the courage to write this.
What also annoys me when a British person has cheek to tell us why we immigrants should not be offended...espically if they have no idea what it is like to be an immigrant."
"Milena, you have made a commitment to your partner.
When will you make a commitment to the UK and seek citizenship ?
When you become pregnant make sure you move to Rochdale or some similar town and live the life of Mrs Duffy and her neighbours. You could gain a degree from the experience and possibly a greater understanding of the concerns of people like Mrs Duffy.
You know not what you speak, and like too many posters on here you have judged a person on a few words she spoke which means you are a ...."
"That sort of language the microphone lady spoke yesterday was bigoted and Daily Mail-esque, and frankly, GB's appreciation of the situation was accurate.
But now we have a Bigot's defense league starting up, and it's going to get nasty in this country."
"Reading some of the comments and rereading the article and I have to say again, like the German car industry to the UK government for the car scrappage scheme, the BNP will be thanking truly from the bottom of their hearts to cif for scoring such an own goal and giving credence to their arguments.
It's going to be painful to watch the slow agonising death of New-Labour as it implodes from within."
"Deborama

Sadly typical US hypocrisy and self-flattery. Your home country has a _far_ more restrictive immigration policy than the UK does, you are in _no_ position to take the moral high-ground. For most of the last decade the UK took as many asylum seekers each year as the US, despite being 1/40th of the size, and also took as many legal immigrants each year as the US did, in absolute numbers, despite being a much smaller country.
The US has _extremely_ restrictive rules on immigration, contrary to its self-perpetuated mythology. To get in you have to either have in-demand skills (and en employer willing to sponsor you) or be an illegal who will work cheap but have no legal rights. And that's despite the fact the US has 1/10th of our population density. Your country is, to a first approximation, empty - nobody lives there - yet you put up huge barriers for anyone wanting to come in. I note that you can now be arrested in Arizona just for ""looking foreign"".
So what if you don't have a vote here? What earthly point do you think that makes? Neither would a Brit working in the US. Do you think that Americans are special and should have rights they don't accord to others? If not, what the hell point are you trying to make?
Has the US opened its borders to Eastern Europe, or done anything similar? No. Do you offer free health care to citizens of other countries? No.
Your country leeches cheap labour from South America while ensuring those immigrants cannot claim anything from the US state and can be removed when it suits.
So put your own house in order before you lecture others.
I have nothing against East Europeans, I think this current row is a storm in a tea-cup, but one thing I can't stand is self-praising Yanks."
"You call yourself disenfranchised...but in fact this is a position you choose, having decided to keep your Bulgarian citizenship rather than give it up and take British.
You also blog on the 'antipope' blog...and admit to being anti-religious...which you warn us of..'.Have been known to display strong political opinions and a pointed distaste for religion. You have been warned'...so no bigotry there then.
Perhaps an East European should be more aware of the dangers of too much mixing of ethnicities, religions and politics. When the British Army had to help sort out the Balkans did you learn nothing? Look at Kosovo now, or even Belgium....look and learn. Look at Tower Hamlets.
Immigration can be good within boundaries, but there is a time when it becomes a dangerous burden leading to social and political breakdown."
"_AT_HAMMY966
Her name is Milena, you would have thought you would have bothered to read the article before you put your frightening right wing rant on as a post. Also you may have travelled around Europe but you have not alas learnt to spell.. Your views are so half baked and ill informed I cannot even be bothered to respond to them, truely pathetic."
"_AT_crazyenglishmf: No, it should be focussed on the politicians that are supposed to represent the electorate as a whole, not a minority of fat-cats and the useful idiot liberals that support them.
Business leaders are supposed to maximise their profits. That's their job. Politicans aren't supposed to help them. They are supposedo to be on the side of the people. The problem is that we hardly have any politicians that come from normal backgrounds anymore."
"xixonian

I heard it this morning on Sky news and didn't have the luxury (or ability as we can't get YouTube where I work) to be able to double check exactly what she said.
My point was that to my uncultured ear her 'flocking' could have been misinterpretted or misheard as 'fucking' and therefore made what she said still seem rather bigoted - I apologise that I paraphrased what Gillian said wrong, but it was not a deliberate misquote in order to agree with the article."
"Just as Mrs.Duffy made a sweeping generalisation about Eastern Europeans, so have you about British people.
It is clearly untrue to say that all immigrants come here to work, just as it is equally untrue to say that all Britsh people want to work.
Don't think that the Citizenship Test means anything and please don't imply that Mrs.Duffy should take it as this is just insulting.
Oh, and way to make a protest - posting on Twitter..."
I am a "screaming" liberal who thinks that immigration has been a great thing for this country. We should though allow debate and listen to those who's opinion differs without cheap insults. The government did screw up the numbers that came from Eastern Europe and that put pressure on some local services. That isn't bigoted just correct. That was bad management and the government should be brought up on it. Brown was wrong and unfortunately so are you. Grow up and allow others to have their point. Don't worry your argument will win the day.
"Actually, Gordon Brown, from what I remember, mentioned the contribution made by immigrants during both TV debates.
I think the real problem here is that people don't understand or really know the scale of immigration and whether it is harmful or helpful. These are difficult questions to answer and must not simply be dismissed as racist.
But yes, I do probably agree with Brown."
"Christ albloodymighty are people still talking about this?
Can we PLEASE get back to more important issues like the economy and Afghanistan and the NHS and the horrible prospect of Cameron in No10?"
"I COMPLETELY AGREE.
She was two seconds away from saying ""If you say anything about the immigrants, you are a RASCIST.""
Rascist was the word that got away. She is prejudiced against Eastern Europeans - and against migrant workers.
Speaking as a British migrant worker, a teacher in Qatar, I would feel very uncomfortable if an Arab said on television, ""You can't say anything about the immigrants without being rascist, but what about all these British? Where are they all flocking from?"" That would make me feel very uncomfortable.
When she spoke, you could see BROWN bristle, as a good man - he thought he was suddenly dealing with a rascist, and someone he couldn't be seen to associate himself with.
He should have stood up to her. He should have defended himself. AND I HOPE AN EASTERN EUROPEAN PUTS A HEARTFELT QUESTION TO THE THREE OF THEM IN THE LEADERS DEBATE TONIGHT."
"Jock
""the BNP will be thanking truly from the bottom of their hearts to cif for scoring such an own goal and giving credence to their arguments.""
Have you seen the BNPs views on climate change?
Fans of the BNP don't really worry that much about which side has the most credible arguments, do they?
For many BNP fans if Nick Griffin was filmed by the BBC setting fire to a cat it'd just be yet more proof the BBC is run by English hating Marxists."
The question begs, If she was such a blue rinse Alf Garnet type bigot that she is getting made out to be on here, why did she not go on and on about 'those foreigners' and why did she leave Brown on fairly good terms?
I don't speak slowly but I do tend to ask people where they're from pretty early on in a conversation if they seem to be foreign, and I say that as a 'foreign' myself - I thought I was just taking an interest... :(
"_AT_barry841
Your claim was that people can't simply move here and start getting everything for free.
The cases cited do indeed show that, and claiming asylum is another form of immigration - a successful one, as even when a claim is found to be fraudulent, you stand a good chance of not being deported.
The abuse of the asylum system as a mechanism for bypassing immigration controls is well-recognised. In these two cases the UK is not the nearest safe country to either Afghanistan or Somalia.
However, the UK may be the nearest soft touch to those two countries."
"Grahamew and wh1952
great post, clearly i touched a nerve, can you just point out for me the bits that were rascist ?
all i did was point out facts, uncomfortably facts but facts non the less !
My German and Polish m8s would find it most amusing you call me a racist. the works forces i have worked with in Africa and the ME would equally be shocked to find out im a racist too !
again i will ask the question, what did i say that was non factual or racist ? or is you default just to smear me ! hmmmmm !"
Well done, Milena. Somebody cutting through the carp and talking sense. Brown should not have apologised and I only wish he had told her her views were bigoted during the conversation. This brouhaha does not show UK in a good light from several angles: that we listen and obey when Murdoch directs us and that we buy into 'immigration = problem' in such numbers.
"Miskatonic
""However, the UK may be the nearest soft touch to those two countries.""
Surely those countries that take in more asylum seekers than the UK are an even softer touch then?
Again we run into the never ending conflict of human beings stuck on Earth:
1> we don't really want the world's politicians turning away asylum seekers or killing them.
but
2> we don't want them here either - ""here"" being wherever we happen to be experiencing life.
Clearly, we don't want asylum seeking children having too good a life - god forbid they should discover a paradise somewhere after experiencing war/famine/whatever - but if they suffer terribly that makes us feel bad too.
If they must be either terribly happy or terribly unhappy, we can hopefully keep it all away from our own eyes - until the tabloids tell us about ""REFUGEE KIDS GET FREE SCRATCHCARDS AND VIDEO GAMES"" which just makes us mad at the thought of them getting something for nothing.
""REFUGEE KIDS GET FREE CLOTHES FROM LOCAL CHARITY SHOP - REALLY OLD FASHIONED AND SHIT JUMPERS NO ONE ELSE WANTED"" doesn't make us feel quite so sad.
in summary then:
""Hell is other people""
:)"
I used to work for Sheffield City Council with disabled kids and adults. I worked with a lot of very altruistic, fundamentally good working class people who had done the same job for decades and virtually never left Sheffield. And an awful lot of them all showed, on varying levels, racist tendencies. They saw other cultures as untrustworthy, suspicious. They'd lock bags away if we had an African agency worker "because you can't be too careful," or exclude them in a hundred different ways. It was broadly left unsaid, but there was a widely accepted attitude there. We can demonise Brown all we want, it's great sport, but the better debate would be why so many people share Duffy's opinions.
"Taking our jobs?
Those who complain that immigrants are taking British jobs should remember that the 'captains' of Brtitish industry, over the last 20 or 30 years, are the ones who have seen fit to move most production out to sweat-shops in poor countries where they can pay slave wages and not worry too much about working conditions or health and safety regulations!
It's not immigrants who've taken your jobs in Britain, it's companies themselves who've taken your jobs out of Britain!
This 'jobs being taken' problem will not be remedied until every citizen of this planet, wherever they are, can expect a decent wage for an honest day's work, and that's the plain and simple truth!"
This thread will be closing overnight. Thanks for your comments.
"1945 The Poles were not allowed to take part in the victory in Europe celebrations.
...We received a letter from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, from Bevin, encouraging us to return to Poland, now that Poland was free, but the Poland I knew no longer existed; home was now part of Ukraine. Poland was under Soviet Communist rule. We had news of those who had returned to Poland and what had happened to them. Thankfully, Churchill realized what had happened and it was thanks to his initiative that the Polish Resettlement Act was introduced in 1947. We all had wanted to return to Poland; that is, after all, why we had been fighting. Unfortunately it became apparent that this was impossible...
Katyn represents the over 1.5 million Eastern Poles deported by Stalin to the Siberian labour camps. My late father spent 2 years in Siberia and then fought with the Polish RAF. My Uncle was killed by the NKVD in 1942.
The lady is of the age that remembers this. She asked a sensible question.
She was courteous and concerned. She asked questions actually answered well by Gordon Brown. It is the hypocrisy of Gordon Brown that frightens. Politicians whose words do not truly reflect their feelings are beneath contempt."
"AllyF is at least as influential as e deserves to be in this forum so I'm going to respond to his offensive rant at the author.
Selective quotation, mawkish sentimentality, triangulating middle class self satisfaction with posed working class authenticity, blended with a dash of repulsive personal aggression meant to convince us that the emotions are authentic. Oh, and just enough prominence given to the word 'Roma' to press buttons from a safe distance. Unpleasant buttons. The sort of buttons the author had heard being pressed for twelve solid media hours before she wrote this.
Dishonest manipulative drivel which makes me want to ask
How dare you?
How fucking dare you?"
"This is bad, unethical journalism.
Gordon Brown thought he was speaking privately and his confidentiality was betrayed. His comment was not compellingly out of order, he was venting off the cuff frustration.
This is sensationalism and does not deserve a mention in a paper like the Guardian."
"Last week on the BBC Radio 4 ""Today"" programme Gordon Brown continually boasted to John Humphries about how he had successfully contained wage inflation. He and Blair achieved this by opting out of the temporary immigration embargo on new EU member states (which most other EU states adopted) and allowed unrestricted immigration from Eastern Europe. This was the mechanism that New Labour used to control wage inflation; clearly, it knew that the incoming wave of people seeking work would depress the wages of the indigenous work force.
This is not a criticism of migrant workers, but rather a criticism of New Labour. This policy had more in common with past Tory administrations than anything socialist. No wonder people are bitter and feel let down by this ""Labour"" administration. No wonder the BNP is gaining strength.
BTW I find it very unnerving that the Guardian sees fit to censor so many posts on this issue."
"All we are seeing is how large the schism between Labour's two main sets of supporters is. I don't think one party can represent both the middle-class ""professional"" ""skinny latte"" drinking urban (ie, London) multicultral types while at the same time representing the interests of it's traditional provincial, working-class, hard-working, tea-drinking voter base. They need to pick one and stick with it.
Personally, I don't consider myself as having anything in common with the former group. I just don't recognise the world they live in, and clearly they feel the same about me and the world I live in."
"That sort of language the microphone lady spoke yesterday was bigoted and Daily Mail-esque, and frankly, GB's appreciation of the situation was accurate.
But now we have a Bigot's defense league starting up, and it's going to get nasty in this country.
By kaff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please can you expand and qualify your rather hysterical and absurd remarks"
"_AT_deborama:

You may be, but have you asked the people who were already there before mass immigration from Europe?"
"I have very mixed feelings about the whole episode. I work in a school and many pupils do not know what vocabulary to use when discussing immigration and race issues. They cannot express themselves adequately in a way that does not offend. Many people out in the street are also similarly disadvantaged. While coming across as a bigoted statement, I believe that she did not mean it to sound that way.
Had the Government had a better projection of how many people from Eastern Europe would move here once those countries joined the EU, they would have had an acceptable amount of public services in place in the right areas. As a result of the poor preparation by the Government, there was a great deal of pressure put on public services, leading to frustration by many who have to wait 3 weeks to see their GP. That is not Mrs Duffy's fault, however ineloquent she may have been. It is, however, Mr Brown's fault. So although I do not care what he thinks of voters in the privacy of his own car, I do feel he let down, not just British citizens, but the citizens of other EU countries who have moved here."
No reply from the author of this dreadful piece. No need really with the moderators to protect her from anyone with an accurate factual reply
"What most people in Britain should understand is that in most of the ex-eastern Bloc, with the exception of Slovenia, Estonia and maybe the Czech Republic the last twenty years of ""democracy"" has been a total disaster for the vast majority: wages are stagnant, neoptism and coruption rife and prices for essentials food housing transport are at German levels...
Since joining the EU apart from being able to travel the only other difference is that domestically VAT, excise duties on tobacco alcohol have rocketed and state subsidies slashed...The other EU original 15 members including impoverished Greece Spain and Portugal) refused to extend labour rights so of course they descended on the UK...where else?
Now some countries are actually collapsing Latvia- 45% contraction in GNP, Bulgaria, Romania (basket cases) have living standards and unemployment that isworse, combined with flat tax, abssymally low minimum wages and high food prices that make life harder there than North African Countries like Tunisia or Turkey.."
He had agreed to where a microphone so that what he had said could be heard. He was still wearing the microphone when he made the comment, and had no reason to believe that what he was saying was not being recorded, other than his own stupidity and frustration with having to meet normal members of the public who were prepared to voice an opinion that veered from the party line. The only betrayal is the betrayal of working class British people by the political party that was formed to represent their interests.
"AllyF:

Okay, so I take your point. And maybe this forum isn't the best one for this kind of polemic, as to a large extent Milena is preaching to the converted. But her message is something that a lot of people in this country would do well to hear. You're right in the sense that ironically, it's probably those who've never interacted with immigrants in their lives who need to hear it the most - as it's these people who tend not to have a clue about the issue, yet can wax lyrical about the evils of migration until the cows come home. I think your problem with this article is that it's unbalanced in places, tars those worried about immigration with one brush and reads somewhat like a rant. I accept those points. But I think before criticising too harshly we should remember exactly how many xenophobic, rabid rants immigrants here have had to endure from our media - the closest thing to a collective mouthpiece the British population has. Let's not crucify one of them for biting back."
"OZKT

No. The onus is (or should be) on the government to ensure that their policies do not lead to a situation where local primary schools (already overstretched and underfunded), are having to improvise classrooms in the school kitchens; the onus is on the government to have some kind of integration and settlement plan in place before opening their borders to an potentially unlimited number of new residents; the onus is on the government to ensure that there are translators available for hospitals and GP surgeries before they have hundreds of people attempting to access medical care without any documentation or common language; the onus is on the authorities to enforce landlord registration, building regulations and health and safety laws when there are dangerous numbers of people living in a 2-up-2-down; the onus is on the authorities to ensure there are enough social workers and educational outreach workers to cope when there are literally hundreds of school-age children hanging around on the streets all day, every day, being deprived of an education...
Starting to get the picture?
For the last 2 years or so, we've been having loads of public meetings and community events, with council, police and other authorities, trying to sort out our problems. The main reason there has been so much chaos is because the council were caught just as much off guard as the rest of us. They didn't write to Romania and invite thousands of extra people to come to Longsight.
We are not a racist, bigoted community. Quite the opposite. If we ""speak to an immigrant and educate ourselves"" our problems will not go away. We've been doing our best to further our understanding and decrease our confusion. There haven't been any additional school places miraculously appearing as a result.

Oh, let's think, maybe from somewhere between 'educate yourself' and 'become a better person'"
"Passing lightly over the fact that Mrs Duffy never said anything bigoted anyway.
I know Mrs Duffy, not her personally but ladies like her. When I was a child the Mrs Duffys surrounded me. As I grew older I realised that these were the good hearted women who got things done. Cross them and you got the rough edge of their tongue, they would happily put manners on you. But if you were threatened by anyone or anything it would be Mrs Duffy wading in to the rescue because she cared about you. If you needed a neighbour to help out, it was Mrs Duffy, if you needed things planning, or food providing, or clothes collecting or places cleaning then who did you look to but Mrs Duffy?
Mrs Duffy is one of the great characters in our world. If immigrants needed help then it was Mrs Duffy who would be there, if people needed encouraging - Mrs Duffy again. It wasn't the learned and successful people who would get their hands dirty but capable and caring Mrs Duffy.
And so, Mrs Duffy, whatever your name may be, wherever you live and from whichever race you are descended, I want to thank you, truly and sincerely. It's not you who bears any malice or hatred to mankind (though sometimes you can be a little clumsy and even cause offence to the thin skinned). But to those who meet you, you are a shining example, a pearl of great price in this world."
"_AT_lapsed 5.57
Actually, Ally F seems to have hit the nail on the head.
It is you that is wallowing in New Labourite ""dishonest manipulative drivel""."
"_AT_lapsed
You're very welcome to come and visit me and I'll show you round the neighbourhood, and introduce you to the neighbours. We're very friendly.
I'll extend the same invitation to Milena.
Funnily enough, Polly Toynbee recently came for the same tour (not at my invitation, but I saw her afterwards.) The look on her face was quite precious. ""I didn't know anything about any of this!"""
Well spoken, Milena. Had Brown stood his ground and said, 'yeah, well she was spouting bigotry' I might have had some respect for him as a leader. As it was he all too predicatably caved in under the weight of unwholesome British zenophobia. Sad times.
"CommunityMod,

So it's all back tomorrow morning then?
God, I hope not."
"WH1952
If you want to know why so many white working class people in this country nave a 'chip' on their shoulder, just read some of the posts on this thread - most of all those who question Mrs Duffy's intelligence, experience and education, and try desparately to portray her as some raving Dail Mail reader who is so weak minded that she is susceptible to brain washing by the right wing press (a common and insulting trope often used on these threads), unlike her more 'intelligent' social superiors. And all this in spite of the fact that she has always voted labour and holds, as far as I can see, fairly left wing beliefs.
It's about time those bloody proles learned their place and shut their stupid uneducated mouths.
Welcome to the modern left."
"Happ
""Personally, I don't consider myself as having anything in common with the former group. I just don't recognise the world they live in, and clearly they feel the same about me and the world I live in.""
I understand you Happ - although I live in London I drink tea and not lattes by the way (lattes ain't unique to London)
I'm starting work on Saturday night - kitchen porter, minimum wage."
"KenBarlow _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 5:36PM

I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total characterisation by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on.

?"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

And they can't. They have to be either seeking asylum or able to support themselves. I know that to some people (best not call them bigots) ""asylum seeker"" is synonymous with ""lying scrounger"" but I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that."
"I agree with this article.
What baffles me is why oh why did the media not wheel out Chami Chakravarty to comment on this.
Whenever they want to block reform, they waste no time in giving her air time to vent her splien to cloak their resistance to a policy under the fig leaf or racial discrimination or an errosion of civil liberties.
Perhaps the print or TV media should let her watch the exchange in full in the presence of Eastern Europeans and ask her to comment.
Will this happen, of course not!"
"_AT_MiskatonicUniversity

And they can't. They have to be either seeking asylum or able to support themselves. I know that to some people (best not call them bigots) ""asylum seeker"" is synonymous with ""lying scrounger"" but I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that."
"BizzarroJerry BizzarroJerry
29 Apr 2010, 12:51PM
Thank god, you've written this. Totally agree. Gordon Brown was right about her.

Was the tw3o faced Brown right when he made the remark or right when he made the grovelling apology? The man cannot have nit both ways, he is a contemptible two faced hypocrite, typical of New Labour."
"_AT_AllyF

Having read Polly's book ""Hard Work"", I think we can assume she is aware of what the real world is like - even if largely as a tourist."
"Milena, you are having your ?welcome to this great country of ours? moment. I suspect that you probably weren?t here for the last election or you would be accustomed to the uniquely British tone of strictly non-bigoted righteousness bubbling under the surface of every discourse on Johnny Foreigner that always gets a good massage come voting time. And rather than make a public issue of breaking down, you would probably have got more insight from talking to your Jewish, Irish, Black and Asian neighbours and colleagues about the moment in their assimilation into the UK pantheon of immigrant communities when they had to admit that British non-bigotry had finally got to them and how they have managed since.
As has been pointed out here, worse systems of bigotry exist in more murderous form, not least in Eastern Europe. Immigrants to Britain from other cultures will tell you there always comes a point at which the natives get restless and find themselves unable or unwilling to adapt to the new social paradigm that follows each wave of immigration required by the British economy?s insatiable need for low paid workers. Cheer up! You?ve had a chance to get in a good old fashioned moan about how unfair it all is??.in the Guardian yet! Millions have gone through the same as you and worse without a voice.
To their credit, the Labour party has done much (some would say too much) to outlaw and repress the excesses of non-bigotry, and that I would think is what was behind Gordon Brown?s (private) frustration at Mrs Duffy?s personal, but widely shared view of the source of our troubles. What he had not taken into account is that whatever you might think the real issues are, there?s no accounting for the ongoing strength of feeling anywhere in this globalised world against foreigners when the going gets tough."
Good on you Gordon, sorry you apologised she is a silly OLD BIGOT, I doubt the Labour Party need people like her any way. By the way I am old 66 to be precise.
"It annoys me when people say that the eastern Europeans (for example) do the jobs here that the English won't do when in reality the incomers woudn't do them in their own countries for the rates that are paid for those jobs in those countries.
It's all relative and when you throw in our free education/health, benefits, social housing, superior infrastructure and better footy then it's a no brainer for a graduate from Bulgaria to come here and pick strawberries, they wouldn't do it there because they'd only be paid third world slave-labour wages (as opposed to first world slave-labour wages ie the minimum wage) Which reminds me - why shouldn't MP's salaries be a multiplier of the minimum wage then they would be encouraged to increase it and everyone would benefit, in fact, shouldn't the cheapest mid-terrace house be about 3.5 X the min wage over a year? [52X£5.65X40hrsX3.5=£41k funnily enough what they were about Thatcher's era]"
"Jock
""I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total characterisation by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on.""
their attitudes and policies dictate how credible they are as a party.
""?""
:)
Well don't blame me - blame BNP fans. They are the ones who see everything Nick does as a sign of what a great leader he is. His appearance on QT was a triumph, in their eyes."
"JockMcDoc _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:15PM
correction and expanded to explain what I fully mean :
I posted the comment in the article about how a woman talked about immigration and gets a total character assassination by being called bigoted and racist and you talk about climate change? Come on it's what they have been saying for years that there is a conspiracy to silence the immigration debate."
Hmm, they'd probably be better getting Shami Chakrabarti.
"I do not blame Mrs. Duffy, nor do I think she is a bigot.
Her question was phrased fairly reasonably and did not seem jingoistic, although it was simplistic and exhibited the irritating platitudinal quality of phrases like ""broken society"" and ""political correctness gone mad"".
I do, however, blame Gordon Brown for the way in which he responded to her. Her question was, in essence, a perfectly valid enquiry about the free movement of labour in the EU and the effects it will have on native populations.
I detest the inability of Brown to respond sincerely in public, or fairly and open mindedly in private. His answer to the question of what he would do about the ""flockers"" should simply have been ""absolutely nothing as we have no legal right to now restrict EU immigration. It would simply not be fair.""
Unfortunately, Ms. Popova, you have not really heplped much here, as you have gone to great lengths to inform us of your personal reaction to ""bigotgate"", but have not really offered any contribution to the wider debate, or explained how, as a left liberal, you think that what is ""good for the economy"" is necessarily good for the people.
Free movement of labour is only really beneficial when disparities in wealth between regions are temporary and average out over medium term time scales. It basically benefits business and not workers."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"KenBarlow _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:23PM
Please see my updated post. All I was pointing out was an opinion, whether you agree with it or not, it has been an own-goal by cif and has given the BNP ammunition.
The sensible thing would have been to let it lie but then again some folk can't, can they?"
"_AT_ComunityMod

No 'accidentally' leaving it open just in case we say what we really think then?"
"JockMcDock,

No there hasn't - there has been an attempt to politicise and polarise the immigration debate to the point that there are only two possible positions..
Anti-immigration - racist, bigot, little Englander, BNP etc.
Pro-Immigration - soft touch, free handouts, metropolitan elite etc.
Truth be known, most people aren't in either camp."
"I don't know....I'm an Eastern European immigrant too, and the comment of Mrs Duffy didn't even register. I think it is only because such comments are fairly common place and because I've heard much worse.
Of course, that in itself is symptomatic of the wider problem that upset Milena so much.
I think it is best just to ignore such remarks and never to take them personally.
(And let's face it - almost every single Eastern European country has similar problems of prejduice whether they are directed at minorities, or other nationalities. Sometimes that is expressed in far worse ways than it is here)
That said, we should never become blind to prejudice but rather let it not affect us because there are plenty of welcoming people in the UK and elsewhere who do not feel that way.
And even more for whom immigrants/nationality/ethnicity this is a total non issue."
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"exiledlondoner _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:30PM
I think you'll find that the BNP garners sympathy by portraying themselves as the underdog who are getting silenced by the 'liberal elite' by being smeared racist when they bring up immigration."
"_AT_ thfc123
that'll be why they brought in the minimum wage and sure start then...
They're not great but Labour is still the best choice for working class voters,
I'm feeling more and more uneasy about the Liberal Democrats the latest point is John Harris today inIpswich.
The Lib-Dems don't need to worry about alienating the working class vote as it's not where they get their core support from. I'm all for giving them a change though. I hope I'm wrong"
"WH1952
If you want to know why so many white working class people in this country nave a 'chip' on their shoulder, just read some of the posts on this thread - most of all those who question Mrs Duffy's intelligence, experience and education, and try desparately to portray her as some raving Dail Mail reader who is so weak minded that she is susceptible to brain washing by the right wing press (a common and insulting trope often used on these threads), unlike her more 'intelligent' social superiors. And all this in spite of the fact that she has always voted labour and holds, as far as I can see, fairly left wing beliefs.
It's about time those bloody proles learned their place and shut their stupid uneducated mouths.
Welcome to the modern left."
I totally agree with this article. He called her what she is. If she and the rest of Britain can't see that, then there's more danger to her words than his. Although, I do have to say: I've lived in Germany and in Poland and seen the SAME bigotry towards immigrants in THOSE countries too. It's a European thing... which I really don't get seeing as the EU actually ENCOURAGES this type of open trade, open employment relationship. Not that the U.S. doesn't have it's own issues, but being a nation of (mostly) immigrants, it's a little more accepting. Time for Europe to grow up.
"JockMcDock,

Of course they do - doesn't make it true though...."
"The problem really is resentment.
I'm a painter and decorator. I work hard, I do the job properly and I don't mess people about like some. But when I hear people talk about hard the polish work etc etc.
It isn't anything to do with how hard they work.
You like polish workers because you can pay them 2 quid an hour and they have no employment rights. So stop dressing it up as some kind of progressive ideal thing. You just like using poor foreign blokes to save your money. THAT IS IT.
I resent being called lazy by people that know nothing about me just because of my nationality to be quite honest. I'm also sick of people ripping off my mates just because they're foreign.
You really are a bunch of low life hypocrites."
Your words are obviously said from the heart. To the people who have posted comments insulting you should try & understand how this total farse has made you feel. After all Gillian Duffy has not apologised for the bigoted comments she after all did actually make, Gordon Brown was for once quite right in his comments.
Meinhare: No, it's a human thing actually. Can I call you an idiot now?
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with Mrs. Duffy.
What has got so many people angry is the way she has been dismissed as a bigot.
If she was a work-shy benefit scrounger then i wouldn't care but we are talking about someone who spent their working life looking after the disabled.
That alone does not make her a saint but it sure as hell gives her the right to voice an opinion and ask questions without being shouted down by her snotty 'superiors'.
It seems that Mrs. Duffy cares more about the well-being of her local community than big business' right to employ cheap, 'flexible' workers.
The criticisms of her reek of old-fashioned snobbery with a twist of ageism.
AllyF said it all really."
"mattmcneany _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:35PM

Quite a few cif'ers would feel at home in the libs wouldn't they if it meant not worrying about alienating working class folk would it?
I sincerely hope that the liberals do well so that all these New Labour types defect to them and Labour gets it's founding principles back and start being one of the voices of ordinary folk."
"They are saying so because their pollsters have warned them that speaking up for immigrants will bring them electoral disaster.
Do you like living in a country where the top politicians are not allowed to say what they think because pollsters have told them what not to say? Who governs Britain: the elected politicians or the pollsters? (Plus or minus 5%)!"
"Are Poles bigots?
What's the attitudes of Poles to racial minorities in this country, and in Poland?"
"Sam Beckett: You said it. Sit there with lithuanian nannies, italian gardeners, polish builders and working class decorators - and bash on about how OTHER PEOPLE can't work for a living.
Asses."
"""Who governs Britain: the elected politicians or the pollsters? (Plus or minus 5%)!""
Er...the electorate?"
"exiledlondoner _AT_ 29 Apr 2010, 6:40PM
The point I am making is that they will be using this episode as credence that it is true, it's all about selective use of facts, quotes taken out of context etc and boy do they have a feast to pick from."
"And finally a profound sense of isolation, hurt, and being alone. Tears and huge heaving sobs. I've not cried like that in about five years." Funnily enough the last time I cried like that was also five years ago - when Labour won the election.
"Well she didn't actually say that, did she?
she asked about east Europeans ""flocking"" here - which carries a totally different connotation. (Although had she said ""coming here"", do doubt some posters would have tried to infer some sort of sexual implication from those words.)
More interestingly however, she preceded her question with ""you can't talk about immigration now"" - and wow was she proved right about that, if some of these comments are anything to go by!.
A mindset which holds that even asking a question about immigration equates to ""bigotry"", is a very, very unhealthy mindset: one which, moreover completely misunderstands the meaning of the word.
A ""bigot"" is not somebody who is worried about, or fears, something. A ""bigot"" is not somebody who has concerns about something. A ""bigot"" is not somebody who seeks re-assurance about something.
What a ""bigot"" is is somebody who is so convinced about the rightness of their own point of view that they do not see any doubts, qualms or disagreements about it as being even legitimate, let alone worthy of a response.
That is what a bigot is - and this affair has indeed been about bigotry.
But not on the part of Gillian Duffy."
"PS: If you want to see REAL anti-Slavic comments, look no further than educated, articulate and liberal 'national treasure' Stephen Fry.
Poles and other Eastern Europeans are constantly slagged off by those who would never dream of criticisng blacks or asians.
They are dour, homophobic religious fanatics fit only for cheap menial labour until someone in Rochdale raises the issue of immigration. Then they become persecuted, disenfranchised huddled masses."
"I'm not sure how bigoted Duffy was in what she said and it's completely ironic for Brown to call her a bigot when he and New Labour have propped up the discourse of immigrants as inherently problematic and have allowed the BNP and their ilk to flourish. While I do think as an electorate we're entitiled to question how public services are delivered, just using the number of immigrants as a proxy to explain poor public service delivery is lazy.
The problem is generalisations and this is where how you categorise people matters. If you just talk about immigrants en masse and say on balance their impact is either beneficial or detrimental you are using the fact of being an outsider as a valid way of categorising people and somehow explanatory of their behaviour (which is where the accusation of racism comes). Effectively the immigration debate suggests that if en masse immigration is bad then a hardworking immigrant is always going to be considered worse for the country than a layabout non-immigrant. Unless you have a more sophisticated and nuanced analysis accusations of racism are justified.
To those that have said Milena shouldn't take it personally - well it's hard - we, (media politicians joepublic) build up discourses about certain groups of people in this case ""criminal Eastern Europeans"", but when you are of that group you do feel implicated - do you run about shouting that you're not criminal? Just as white middle aged straight men feel harddone by when they're told that they are all racist, sexist and homophobic, if you're an Eastern European why wouldn't you feel offended when you're talked about in generalised terms? Duffy's comments may have been slight but it might also be the straw that broke the camel's back. These representations of criminal eastern europeans are delivered in a drip drip fashion, day in day out. Unless you have to think about them though you wouldn't notice. As a second generation British/South Asian origin Muslim woman who is perceived as well-integrated with a white partner and a fondness for the odd pint and bacon sandwich I feel some of those things that Milena mentioned, albeit in relation to being a Muslim. (and for the record, guess what I was never forcibly married/killed for honour/still have my own clitoris and my dad who's a mosque going bearded Muslim gets on really well with my partner)
To conclude - scarcity of resources will always exist - we need to think about what principles we use to manage that. Crude, unsophisticated assertions about the number of immigrants doesn't help anyone and can be offensive. And yes obviously we can't always be talking about individuals but we need to think about how we categorise groups of people and whether we are attributing some explanatory factor to that category."
"How dare you! I would say I do have a sense of entitlement to a British passport, yes, seeing as I was born here, and I certainly am not entitled to one from any other country. How do Brits, whatever their ethnicity, with British passports (who, incidentally, may also be nationalised immigrants) deserve your snide remark of having a 'huge sense of entitlement,' when their only crime is to carry a UK passport? What am I supposed to do - denounce it at birth lest I seem arrogant?
Honestly, Milena, get over yourself. This is an egocentric attack on anyone who is doing your journalistic career a favour by reading your article. I wish I'd never found it!"
"im not an immigrant. i value immigrants. i have worked with immigrants. i have spoken to them about what its like to be an immigrant. ive watched what the woman said. i feel sorry for gordon brown in this instance.
but i dont think she was necessarily being bigoted. and i dont think you do have that much to be upset about.
were you not aware that some people blame immigrants for our countries problems? were you not aware that immigration was an election issue? are you perfectly happy as long as people voice their concerns about immigration dressed up in politically correct emotionless language?
the woman is one of many who blame our countries problems on immigration. if she was a devoted bnp supporter, you may have more reason to take such offence, as she would already have fully decided that immigrants were the problem and they should be sent home. but she was merely voicing her opinions and concerns - yes with emotional and untactful overtones, but i dont recall her saying overtly personal.
gordon brown obviously wasnt in the mood, but he would have done well to fully explain his attitude towards immigration, rather than palming her off with vague figures of immigration / emmigration. its easy to poke holes in these figures, as people do not always immigrate to or emmigrate from the exact same areas or social classes.
he could have made a real attempt to truly explain his immigration policies - im sure they are not formed on an in=out basis - but it was clearly easier to just patronise her about the importance of working with children for a while. no real discussion whatsoever.
people have problems with immigrants. spare them your anger, and direct it towards the poor communication on the part of those who decide our immigration policy. the bnp are probably the most open about the reasoning behind their policies, and are probably all the more persuasive for it...."
"Milena, don't be so naive. People all over the world start to feel angry and threatened if they see ever-increasing numbers of foreigners entering their country, some of whom frankly (Eastern Europeans not included) do not give a stuff about British social norms and culture. Polish people would feel just the same. I am sorry if that hurts the feelings of you and other decent, hard-working immigrants, but there's nothing exceptional about the Brits.

Empathy works two ways. You should try to educate yourself about the point of view of the disgruntled indigeneous person in your adopted country. Britain's sense of national identity and social cohesion has been draining away for years and a lot of people are very unhappy and disillusioned about it. We've had 13 years of a government which seems to relish destroying any sense of cultural continuity in the population. We should all face up to this and not dismiss the concerns of people like Mrs Duffy as racist bigotry. Do you really imagine that patronisingly telling such people that they're misguided will aid community cohesion rather than stoke tensions?
Please don't whinge about being 'disenfranchised', it is insulting. I have lived in a different country (France) before, and I never in a million years would have expected to be able to vote in their national elections as I was not a French citizen."
"_AT_ sarka

Surely, central Europe?
Yes, fears of mass immigration are legitimate and should be treated as such. Mr Brown ought to listen to these fears and respond to them, not merely treat them with disdain as he did. This notwithstanding, Mrs Duffy's comment was bigoted. The demonstrative she prefaced her comment with (these Eastern Europeans...) was loaded with casual contempt.
_AT_AllyF
I usually enjoy reading your posts and typically find myself in broad assent with your views. Your post this time was just nasty."
"I think Ally was a bit overkill myself, mainly because I remember two Polish boys getting very badly beaten in Portree last year by locals outraged that they attempted to get into a private party.
Both boys were hospitalized, and of course in the traditional manner of such events in Scotland, no one officially knows who did it.
Rhetoric has an effect, and can have a bone-breaking effect, so it behoves us all to be cautious in talking about immigration, about particular groups of immigrants. Like all Glasgow liberals, I have learned to grit my teeth when running gauntlets of Roma Big Issue sellers and beggars, and also grit my teeth when fellow Glaswegians (such as my Pakistani-born neighbour) talk about sending the Roma 'home'.
However In Glasgow the most troublesome tensions are actually not between the Roma and everyone else, but between groups already established here - whites of Scottish and Irish descent being of course the biggie.
Just think you took it a bit too far, Ally."
The nastiest and most vulgar response came from "I-have-immigrant-friends" AllyF. But I'm not surprised. It is the same person who claimed that biological function of gays is to be nannies.
"Great. The whole country is reeling in revulsion at Brown's vicious attack on a peaceable granny who had the temerity to wonder why there haven't been any effective immigration controls since the Tories left office...and the Guardianistas stick up for Brown! Not just on the sentiment but the language. Love it.
Today someone mentioned that the Labour Party was originally set up to represent working class people? Rather than brand them as bigots, I mean. Incredible how things change, isn't it?"
"All of the ""grow a pair"" ""suck it up"" ""stiff upper lip"" comments are very offensive. Decidedly illiberal comments on a seemingly liberal website. In particular the CIF Belief, CIF America, gender and immigration threads seem to attract an alarmingly high number of posts from Brits who seem to think that they are ""of the left"" but hold views that are intolerant, narrow minded, and prejudiced. Not the Left I believe in. Once again on display here are far too many posts that are hot headed and crude. How is it so few posters grasp the offensiveness of using words like ""flocking"" to describe the legal immigration arrival people? Usually, even if I don't agree with AllyF I respect his tone. But his post on 29 Apr 2010, 1:17PM was truly awful.
_AT_Miskatonic University

Ah, the old ""divided loyalities"" chestnut. Nowhere in her comment piece do I sense this - Bulgaria does not allow dual citizenship - end of. This does not translate to a person lacking loyalty for the country of their residence. Is it not good enough for a person to be European? I suppose you would like to emply the Thought Police? Or get some tips from some of your new neighbors on how to train and use neighborhood informants? You could call them the Stasi, and then identify which neighbors were not adequately loyal to the state. Hmm...what was that? 1 for every 66?
formerlefty

So no one wants ""them"" and you are now whining that the U.K. let them in and is having no end of trouble with them. This sounds very familiar. You do realise you are discussing people? This doesn't pass the smell test..
Dimitri
29 Apr 2010, 5:06PM
Great post. Thank you!
hammy966
29 Apr 2010, 5:09PM
Horrid post. It is a brilliant, although inadverten rebuttal to the hundreds of nasty, insensitive brutes who sneered that Milena was overreacting to the ""innocent"" expressions of concern about flocking Poles and ""E.E.""s overrunning their towns and cities. As AllyF said, this is ""changing their communities rapidly and dramatically"", which are being transformed by, for example ""around a thousand East European Roma"", the arrival of which ""has caused both practical and emotional turmoil"" in his ""very tolerant, diverse community"" (guffaw). Multiply that by millions of voices raised against ""you"", but of course they will tell you to ""grow a pair"". If all of the sneerers were listening to this ever intensifying drumbeat of intolerance knowing it was directed at at themselves, they claim they wouldn't be bothered. But as hammy amply demonstrates, they know they are the drummers, the drumbeat is coming for someone else, and the experience shows. Thank you hammy and friends. Well done!

There's that superior British education out on display.

Oops...I'm sure Milena's superior grasp of the English language is all somehow the fault of some Bulgarian crime syndicate....

Priceless."
"Sybantcho
29 Apr 2010, 12:56PM
I think you are overreacting. I am not defending the womans views which I do think are limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches. But still I think you need to relax.
But not by what she experiences? She has articulated her feelings as to what it is like to live in disadvantaged white working class areas, abandoned by the political party that was created to look out for your interest. Labour underestimated the number of immigrants that would come to the UK. They planned for 100,000 and over 1,000,000 people exercised their right to be here under the Social Charter. The consequence of mass unplanned immigration disproportionally affected the white working classes because of the much increased competition for jobs in an ever decreasing low paid market. This is why Labour is now proposing to put a limit on immigration by using a points system. Personally, I find it sad that a Party, who once sought to create international solidarity between workers, has created hatred and division.
There is also the additional problem of a universal benefit system, that was intended to be a safety blanket only to be used at the point of need, but are now benefits for the poor. Once you get in the system it is incredibly difficult to escape. There has been very little debate regarding what is to be done to get people off benefits into work other than the wonderful Tory poster that suggested that people on benefits were scroungers. Yes, this was met with derision from Labour and the Lib Dems but the more fundamental questions are still not being asked such as, why has a benefit called the job seekers allowance been constructed so that the only way the working class can receive it is to ensure that they work for less than the minimum wage? Why, is the only way to create incentives for the poor, is to take more away?
In truth the white working classes have long been abandoned by the Labour Party who by becoming centrist left, looked after the interest of middle class voters, while ignoring the increasingly desperate plight of their core vote. They did so because they arrogantly believed that the white working classes would not vote for any other party other than themselves. They may be proved wrong.
In Barking & Dagenham, The Dagenham Ford car works, which used to employ 40,000 people, ceased production in 2002. Unemployment is high (9.7% last year, compared with a British average of 6.9%). The borough is one of the poorest in the capital. Many people lack educational qualifications (23.2% of working-age residents, compared with a national average of 12.4%). A shortage of affordable housing has created severe overcrowding, and demographic changes have not helped. In 1991 just 6.8% of the population was non-white. The council estimates that the figure is now about 25%, one of the fastest rates of change in the country. The BNP argues that local unemployment and housing shortages are down to immigration. The failure of the 3 main parties to fully engage with how to address the concerns of white working classes, because they believe them simply to be bigoted or prejudiced only appears to support BNP?s agenda
A quote from Tony Travers, of the London School of Economics, says Labour ?is completely split about what to do about the threat of the BNP?. In fact all liberal parties find it hard to ?put across an offer that goes some way to recognising the aspirations and feelings of those who vote BNP?. But if they don?t engage with the people who support the BNP out of a sense of powerlessness, the party will advance. If it wins control of the council or a parliamentary seat, it will be time, Mr Travers concludes, ?to press the panic button?.
There are some incredibly patronising views on here regarding this working class woman because of the manner in which she expressed herself. Her views are ""limited and biased and probably based on what she reads and watches"", but not all from anything she is experiencing. They do not want your patronage, they want you to listen. Just exactly what is it they have to do to get your attention?"
This was fine until the "I pay a higher rate of income tax bit". I am sure many people on low wages, including eastern and central europeans, would love to be in a position to pay a higher rate of income tax.
"Remind me, wasn't it that area of East London/SW Essex that swung so spectacularly to Thatcher when times were good at Ford?
This is an indicator of some root problems. First off that the working class - or a significant chunk of it - deserted Labour before Labour deserted the working class. And they did so because Thatcher offered them individualism, offered them the promise of cutting free from collective support - so it is somewhat ironic that now things are not so good there are complaints that Labour is not doing enough for the ""white working class"".
I trod the streets canvassing for Labour in 1983 in the Midlands, and it was very dispiriting to walk up the path of a former council house, knock on the newly installed fancy door and then get treated to a tirade from the newly Thatcherite inhabitant - usually a production line worker in the carpet or motor industry - about the need to stand on your own two feet. I moved away a few years later and I'm sorry, I found it hard to work up much sympathy for those I canvassed when the West Midlands manufacturing gave up the ghost a few years later.
The second point, and one that few want to face up to, is that globalisation has changed the rules of the game. The UK minimum wage represents prosperity in Asia and Africa. Apart from the obvious magnet it provides for migrants, the deeper issue is that the world pay level for unskilled work is a long way below what UK - and other Western - workers expect. Since the 1850's European, and later Western domination of the world both militarily and economically has allowed the wages of unskilled workers to rise at home by creating a bubble around it. We are coming to the end of that era, and we are seeing the consequences. If immigrants aren't taking those unskilled jobs by undercutting local wages, then the work simply goes elsewhere. But things are very different for people with skills, and even more so when those skills are very marketable - the world pay levels for them is as high or higher than British levels. This is the inequality that is at the root of capitalism, but if you think that is healthy, just check out what is happening in Thailand at the moment.
The point I am trying to make, is that for all the heat being generated by immigration, spending cuts, bank bail outs and so on, we are just tinkering at the edges and not looking at the root cause."
_AT_Maritz: The "Left" you believe in isn't the left at all. Mass immigration is a right-wing policy. Or do you think that the CBI are on the left now?
"LiveButNotKicking


Leopold1904

Maybe it was, and maybe I did, but I wasn't half as nasty as telling people they need to talk to an immigrant in order to educate themselves and 'become a better person.'
I'm staggered that more people haven't picked up on the sheer ignorant bigotry of that remark. Far worse than anything Gillian Duffy is supposed to have said."
"Me too. I found Brown's self-implosion rather hilarious.
BizzarroJerry

Brown has absolutely no idea. You can't just write a pensioner off because she asks about immigration. Well, you can if you're 17."
"manhattancat

Oh FFS you talk as if she were tabling a motion at a Mumsnet meeting.
Yes, lashings of apologies and please do pass the cucumber sandwiches.
She's just expressing her bewilderment at a relatively sudden influx of immigrants. It's human nature.
Less of the faux disgust and snobbery, please. Some people are so out of touch it's unbelievable."
"True - and just to say, I salute AllyF.
He was absolutely right to call the writer out on this crass, ignorant, paternalistic and emotionalist piece of nonsense.
A period of reflection would be in order from her mimsy apologists."
"Mrs Duffy is being crucified, for what, her only crime was believing the 'Masculine Bovine Excrement' she reads in the press, and I'm willing to bet she reads the Daily Fail. She is not bigoted, just misinformed.
Of course immigration is a problem, this is only a small country, we can't cope with a huge influx of immigrants, but the illegal ones are the ones doing the author of this piece a disservice, not Mrs Duffy.
I hear more stories of immigrants who come here to commit crime than I do of the hard working type, THAT is the concern that Mrs Duffy has, and quite rightly so.
Not every Eastern European at Sangat is an honest upright citizen, and those Eastern Europeans who robbed people who had just collected cash from an ATM in Coventry certainly weren't upstanding citizens."
"I didn't cry, but at first I chuckled at how inept the whole thing was, then I felt embarrassed for Gordon Brown, then I just had a pit in my stomach at it all. It really is a bad sign for the people that the democracy of the country is more concerned with whether someone called someone a name than anything else.
Personally, I felt if perhaps she was at best mildly bigoted, then a far worse notion was her ignorance and lack of understanding of immigration in any way. Nations THRIVE on migrants, and part of the reason is because nations like the UK and USA reach a certain standard of living where the population will not do certain jobs, or are unwilling to do it for less than a certain wage. The whole reason why migrants from places like Poland are doing so well, is because as a whole, the UK populace has a higher standard of living, and higher expectations than the Polish populace, meaning the infamous ""Polish Plumbers""(As apocryphal a generalisation can get), work more partly because there was an infamous shortage of trained plumbers in the UK, and workers from other nations are more prepared to work harder for less pay, encouraging businesses to work with them, rather than non-migrants.
Also, it's not like the UK has only an ""IN"" door for migration - every year many people depart the UK and become ""Ex-pats"" in places like Spain and Australia, aswell as many other countries. There reasons are many, but my point is that countries work a lot like mobile phone networks - on ""Churn"", a term used to describe the amount of people leaving the network each year, versus the people who come to the network, even if the people arriving are former customers or simply people who disconnected then reconnected with a different number. Mobile phone networks chase down new business much more fervently than they attempt to retain existing business, because new business looks good on paper, which drives them higher in financial and PR terms. Nations benefit from churn because it drives the country onward, and in principle, furthers the opportunities and lifestyle of the people of said nations.
I despair of people like Gillian Duffy for relying on only the simplest form of information - what the papers tell you - and not having a decent grasp of either politics, or the world at large. Besides, sooner or later we'll all end up being migrants of some sort or another. Especially seeing as that's where the human race came from."
"Hi.
""Go home.""
Is what you should say to someone with the name ""Duffy"". It's Irish.
""Go home.""
Is what you should say to an Australian-American who's news network left the microphone on (the BBC would've faded it; Blair's Labour wouldn't have allowed it; I think even ITV would've canned it).
Go home.
Seriously, retreat to your home. Say hello to your bloke/girl/other person/cat/dog/fish/terrapin/budgie or phone your ma/pa/sis/bro/cousin/friend. F**k 'em.
Having watched the clip over and over ad nauseum, I still think Brown may have mis-heard ""flocking from"" as ""f**king from"". A Rochdale accent can be quite, err, distinct.
Oh, and your idea of ""look around"" - try asking Britons to ""look deep"". 4 generations should do: you, your parents, your grandparents and your great-grandparents. If you know past you grandparents: good! It means you're not poor (this is a serious poverty delineator - those who know their great-grandparents are more likely to be rich).
And if you still have no immigrants in those four generations, good on you, vote BNP. Here lies my theory: this number, I think, is small.
Me... #iloveimmigrants - one set of my great grandparents got here before the 1905 law came into force."
"Gillian Duffy is told:
""He had Matt's microphone on""
This is a smoking comment. Who is/was Matt? Did he have a ""special"" microphone? Why was it significant for Duffy to be told that a Matt had a microphone, and that that microphone had been planted on Gordon Brown.
Paranoid? Moi? Yep. Seen it and heard it all before.
Dirty rotten bastids.
http://twitter.com/UKLabourParty/status/13075669267"
Watching the clip it is quite clear that Mrs Duffy, faced with all the cameras, was nervous and flustered. I think she used the wrong words to try and articulate her concerns about state benefits. It is something affecting her personally and in her community. The over reaction is what is ridiculous. She isn't a bigot, just a victim of her nerves and possibly of not having the 'right' words anyway. Brown, as leader of this country, should recognise not all of his electorate have the same degree of education as politicians, used to word games, and be more tolerant. As should we all; British, Eastern European or otherwise. This articule hardly helps to not stir up prejudice with its insulting generalisations.
"I am quite concerned about all the excuses that are being made on behalf of Mrs. Duffy.
She was perfectly entitled to voice her concerns. There was no good reason to label her a bigot. Nor is there good reason to believe that she is 'misinformed', that she 'expressed herself crudely' or any of the other patronising remakes that have been made.
There would appear to be no reason to believe that Mrs. Duffy stepped out of the door on the day in question with the determination to ram her views down the throat of the public, unlike so many others.. She was asked her opinion and she gave it, no doubt based on her concerns. Those concerns were based on her experience of life, not mine, not yours and not Gordon Browns. She expressed her view in everyday English, not crudely, but honestly in plain, and polite language. That is a lot more than can be said about most of us commenting on the incident.
If you must excuse her remarks, and I don't, lets say that she was 'off message with current chattering class thinking.'"
"It made me so angry at the media for telling us how to react
It actually made me like Gordon Brown more for having a REAL opinion.
This article states everything I hate about all of the debates and the media
which is why I still have no idea who to give my first vote to"
"I would say this article is a bit overly dramatic in its description of a reaction to Mrs Duffy's comments. I agree with _AT_EvaWilt in that harsher things will be said and a thicker skin is needed.
The fact is that economic migration does have an affect on many services in the U.K and as voters we have the right to be able to speak out about it. It is a subject that is skirted round by the politicians and this is what makes it become a taboo and never mentioned. These sorts of situations play right into the hands of the BNP and offer them ammunition if people are silenced and not allowed to debate fairly on what is a legitimate political argument.
Many areas of our economy rely on migrant workers to supply the demand in a lot of job roles and fill them well. Without this a lot of the sectors would not function to their potential.
If we are not allowed to debate this openly and frankly as a justified political argument then it will disillusion people and in the long term it gives rise to the real bigots/racists in the BNP."
Vast minorities of the UK population are bigoted because of the newspapers they read. The Mail, Express and Sun are shameless exponents of group labelling. The Factssheet series about the UK in this week's Guardian would never be read by their readership for example. Though Mrs Duffy has an essentially good heart, there is no chance for her to be balanced with a right wing dominated national press. There simply would not be bigotry if people read the Guardian. The Mail simply fosters all the conditions necessary for fascist growth, end of story.
"If you don't like it, take the channel tunnel back to Europe and stay there.
My ancestors fought wars to keep Europeans in Europe and its all been undone by unscrupulous politicans letting any old foreigner in.
There aren't enough council houses or jobs around for the parasites of Eastern Europe.
Gordon Brown and Tony Blair would have been executed for treason in days gone by."
"This was my tweet within minutes of me reading the ticker on BBC News:
From BBC: BREAKING NEWS: Prime Minister Gordon Brown caught on microphone describing voter as 'bigoted woman' <Maybe xmlns:_12=""urn:x-prefix:_12"" xmlns:http=""urn:x-prefix:http"" she=""she"" was.=""was."" _12:_20=""_12:_20"" pm=""pm"" apr=""apr"" _28th=""_28th"" via=""via"" web=""web"" im=""im"" http:_=""http:_"" twitter.com=""twitter.com"" _1simonharris=""_1simonharris""></Maybe>"
Thank you Milena. I know how this must feel as I spent the last 15 years as an English immigrant in the Netherlands. Coming back here last year, it was a great surprise to see how much this country has benefited from the presence of Eastern European immigrants. They brighten the place up with their hard-working cheery natures and culture and I hope most of them decide to stay. This country needs you and does not need bigots. Poor old Gordon! He was supposed to meet Labour supporters and was confronted with an obvious mean-spirited bigot of a woman going on about being swamped by Eastern Europeans. What he said in the car was very mild and he was totally right to be annoyed with whoever set up the meeting. The media had no right to broadcast the recording. It was a political move and it looks like that one action is going to let Dave in. Clegg is the loser as immigration has become the number one issue. I'm very disappointed in my country and have decided it's pretty much doomed and broken for good. I'm making plans to move back to Amsterdam and stay there. I just cannot see how the UK can get out of this mess now the Tories are sure to get in again and I intend to vote with my feet. People in Holland are happy and with good cause.
"Actually now (ahem) having read the article I can see why it's created so much aggro.
Milena appears to have conducted her own poll based on ""about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter and have another 60-odd LiveJournal friends""!!!!!

Well, bugger me. Maybe they had better things to do like working instead of twittering? And perhaps they were not inclined to throw a hissy fit just because an elderly woman asked the PM about immigration?

That is simply ridiculous. Do you expect citizenship as soon as you get off the plane? I've been an immigrant (to Germany) a lot longer than you have, and while it'd be nice to have the vote I don't wail on about being ""disempowered and disenfranchised"".
And claiming you are personally a ""target"" is just silly.

You've lost me on that one. Can anyone translate it?

I literally spat tea there.

So all British passport holders need to edcuate themselves and become better people?
Who's a bigot now, then?
And given that her contacts with British people appear limited to ""about 90 mostly leftwing fluffy liberal people on Twitter and have another 60-odd LiveJournal friends"" it's surely Milena that needs to get out and do some communicating with some real people."
"Why is it that everyone that has an opinion that varies from the Guardian line, not wrong, but simply misinformed?
Mass immigration has had a negative effect on many people in this country. They are not ""misinformed"" for recognising this and having an opinion about it."
"I'm an Eastern European (married to an Englishman). This breathtaking arrogance combined with such a level of ignorance has always puzzled me.
What is it exactly that bothers you so much about us? Effectively, we are only allowed to come and live in Britain if we can support ourselves. We aren't scroungers. We pay taxes, and on that basis we can use UK welfare facilities. (Note there are no such restrictions on Western Europeans.)
Gillian Duffy only brought up the Eastern Europeans when Gordon Brown had told her, ""don't worry about unemployment among young people, we will make them work after being jobless for 6 months"". Then she said ""But the Eastern Europeans..."", just stating the so-often rehearsed prejudice that young British unemployed are really desperate to go out and work, but they can't because of the nasty Eastern Europeans. Every time there is a problem with the NHS, the schools and other public services, it's us, draining the resources (as if we weren't all paying for them) - imagine what is feels like.
Yes, it does make you very bitter and you do bottle it up. The majority of these bigots don't know anything about Eastern Europe, you don't even know what Eastern Europe is, apart from the fact that it must be something nasty.
British people travel around the world telling other nations how to treat their ethnic minorities fairly, but they feel fully entitled to encourage unfair prejudices to spread at home.
After having lived here for 6 years all these Eastern Europeans can apply for British Citizenship, which means they can do other things - not just work - like vote. After having been practically treated like criminals and welcomed with ice-cold ignorant arrogance, what do you think they will say?
M"
"It seems having the temerity of being working class, not going to Oxbridge and daring to have an opinion is enough to get you castigated, condescended to and villified on Cif.
Both above and below the line.
I guess we should just know our place eh. Gordon; if you really want people to show deference, tug their forelock and not have ideas above their station then you aren't the leader of any labour party I recognise."
"Although some of the comments are far worse than the article because of their sheer pomposity and self-righteousness.
A prize specimen:
whatithink

Why is it OK for narrow-minded people like you to judge a person's character so swiftly? From my experience people like whatithink tend to be anything but left-wing and tolerant under their skin.

That shows how out of touch you are.

Oh yes, darling. All those simply spiffing champagne weekends in Vienna, wot.

That's strange. All she did was ask Brown about immigration.
Hilarious!"
"Another I apparently ""owe"" something too?
While you are on Guardian can you have a pop at Clegg for his outrageous ""80% of immigrants are from the EU"" gaffe (in fact under Labour only 31% have been)?
Clegg expressed an idea, often pushed by Sunny Hundal etc., which seeks to let ""progressives"" and New Labour away with its policy mistakes. Sadly it is what we call ""anti-racism racism""- choosing to discuss A8 migrants as though they are the problem, when in fact A8 migrants are actually quite useful compared to others from Africa and Asia.
However in the 1984esque mentality of ""progressives"" discussing immigrants from Africa & Asia ventures into verboten territory involving ideas of 'race' where the liberal-left fears to tread. Duffy is possibly a victim of this mentality, having been trained to avoid distinguishing between immigrants and to pick on the A8 ones because they are white and therefore 'touchable'."
"How about you explain it then ?
I can understand words like ""swamped"" ""floods"" etc having negative connurtations ? But flocking .
I did wonder if I was merely being ignorant - so I tried google. The first few hits included Led Zepplin fans ""flocking"" to a gig. Or football fans ""flocking"" to South Africa.
True bigots are very very careful about the language they use (they don't want to be accused of racism after all) so will use words like ""swamped"" ""floods"" or even a ""tidal wave"" as all these thing trigger a little bit of fear.
But flocking ? Please. Other than groups of people it's used to describe birds and sheep. Hardly the best way to inspire fear is it."
"I'm posting this comment which was in response to an article by Alexandar Chancellor just to show some solidarity with Milena.

And sorry AllyF your remarks are just as silly an example of poor little loyal me, I voted labour all my life and now look what they've done to me (equates to I've doffed my cap to the squire all my life, as did my parents, my grandparents) and somehow someone seems to think they can take advantage of my passive follower status.
Nobody told my neighbours or me in my inner city location that we would be flooded out by aspiring yuppies and their loft conversions to the extent that no one can afford to shop locally and local children are made to feel they arent entitled to play in the park because all the yummy mummies with their over size buggies want a quiet environment to suit them.
This is the 21st century. If you cant cope with change you should retreat to some remote island untouched by rapcious capitalism feed by our greedy consumption.
Diidums - nobody told you they were coming? Why haven't you found out by talking to the recent arrivals about what is so attractive about your area. And if it turns out that local employers are under paying then take it up with the unions or whoever.
By the way I have just heard that there is a vast housing surplus in Ireland. Whole new estates standing empty.
Maybe all those tight knit communities who never ever want to have to hear or be near someone who isn't exactly like them could move en masse there."
"As an immigrant I found this article embarrassing and hysterical on so many levels. And sorry, but I refuse to believe you broke down and wept because some old lady expressed concern about foreigners moving into her area.
You'd have hung yourself long ago if you genuinely couldn't cope with the mildest of mild descriptions of immigration. And I daresay Mrs Duffy pales in comparison to the far nastier brand of racism you would have come across in Eastern Europe.
Personally, I'm grateful that I'm treated better and accepted here more than I would be in any other European country.
If you were integrating successfully here, you'd feel comfortable in the knowledge that the British are exceptionally tolerant, but are just starting to raise eyebrows as their communities, housing, shops and industries are undergoing considerable transformations as a result of mass immigration. But of course, you'd know that about the Brits if you took the following approach:

AllyF
I've read your post twice now and am struggling to find the bit where you were supposedly nasty.
There's nothing remotely racist about feeling concerned about the demography of your area changing overnight. It genuinely worries me that so many people are still incapable of talking about immigration like adults, though I'd imagine the BNP are enjoying their monopoly on the issue that has been handed to them by the people who cry racism every time the word 'immigration' is mentioned."
"_AT_deepgully

Not for the wages that are currently paid, no."
"""I'm willing to bet she reads the Daily Fail. She is not bigoted, just misinformed""
Congratulations on contributing the most cliched, supercilious and misinformed remark on this thread. The competition was close (just wordsearch the word 'Daily'), but the sheer dull predictability of this ignorant remark gave you the edge.
FYI Most of my work collegues agreed with miss Duffy's views and they are all left wing Daily Mirror readers.
Now if you'll excuse me, having disagreed with you, I'm necessarily off to read the Daily Mail, join the BNP and hang a huge Union Jack outside my house."
Thank you so much for this. I'm an immigrant, I work and do a PhD. I'm careful, conscientious, kind, and interested in my neighbours, my city, and the country. And about a week ago the woman who lives in the house next door told me I ought to go home because it's people like me who are draining the UK economy and ruining the country. That was so hurtful and so unbelievable. Thank you for putting immigrant experience into words and putting it in so prominent a space. Thank you for verbalising the feeling of being foreign (and made to feel it over and over). I hope you aren't too taken to task for it.
I think we should apologised to her for coming to this country without asking her and rest of the people who don't want as here,sorry for paying a tax and try to live as British people(end of the day we are part of the Europe and European union,) History does reaped and karma does exist,what comes around goes around ,Britain ones occupied, colonised other countries without permission . I am myself from Slovakia and I lived here for 11 years but stayed here because I fell in love with British man and Britain as well.I do understand Milena because I fell some way. I do believe only one think there are only good and bad people and there are also gives and takes,than be grownup about it and leave MRS Duffy to her ignorance and money she got for letting papers to published her story for quite bit sum of money,so much for proud to be British
"I like the article, but I see the last paragraph as outrageously patronising.
You are right that Brown had no choice but not to challenge her in a straightforward manner. A lot of people commenting on other articles have suggested that if Brown felt that she was bigoted (as he evidently did), that he should have challenged her for it to her face. Such a claim, in my view, pays no attention to political reality, and I think that your article does well in bringing this out."
THANK YOU for writing this. The media and public's reaction to GB's outburst is totally over the top. Sure, it's was a stupid thing to say, but the woman was not exactly angelic. What a state we are in if an election is to be decided on something as trivial as this.
"Milena
I find what you have written offensive. I am very tired of immigrants complaining about the British being racist, lazy, bigotted etc etc. I know it is hard to be a foreigner but what can we do? From what I can see this country has been more than welcoming to the immigrants from Eastern Europe. The Supermarkets are stocked with Polish goods, Polish shops have opened up everywhere, libraries stock Polish books, there are Polish clubs, banks have notices in Polish, the vast majority have been able to find work etc etc. I have often tried to converse with Polish immigrants but they seem to have a limited vocabulary and although they can do a good job at the check out they are not able to carry on a conversation. They are foreigners, English is not their mother tongue. It?s a strange situation to have millions of people flocking in from other countries why is it not possible for you to see that. Would there not be the same concerns in Poland if there were a mass influx of people from other countries?"
"Yes, you. All of you with the British passports and the
huge sense of entitlement.
Oh, so sorry for being born in a country!"
The Polish immigrants could also make an effort to communicate with me and ask me what it feels like to have so many people coming here from Eastern Europe. Unfortunately all the Polish people I encounter are with other Polish people and are always speaking Polish and make no effort to communicate with me.
"ikithomozi
I'm assuming you mean you do not have a British passport and therefore do not have the same rights as British citizens.
What can we do? We can't solve all the World's problems. Perhaps it's time for all the economic migrants who come here to stay at home and try and sort out the problems in their own country."
Please do not cry Milena... English people learnt parliamentarianism from 16th-18th century Eastern Europe. It seems that still they do not have enough deep tradition of it. There is a shade of ?Empire? here. Many poor people are xenophobic and feel cheated by their politicians, just like citizens of Germany before the Second World War... Taking into consideration the level of discussion (sometimes people even cannot distinguish other countries in Europe) we should be glad that they usually do not vote for BNP... Look around you can still find here some intelligent people...
"fromcliffs
Are you speaking as an Englishman?
There is something about your sentence construction that makes me wonder!"
"One think puzzle me why everybody things that if you are from Eastern Europe you have to be from Poland it is same as somebody from America would say that all English are from London.Could I just say that Poland is central Europe.
And also quoting from Wikipedia
Several definitions of Eastern Europe exist today, but they often lack precision or are extremely general. These definitions vary both across cultures and among experts, even political scientists, recently becoming more and more imprecise [12].
The Economist and other sources argue that ""Eastern Europe"" is a mala fides (consciously misleading and inaccurate) socio-economic and cultural stereotype routinely used by Western conservatives for post-Communist countries.[13][14] It is asserted that the double standard becomes apparent when a comparison between Western Europe and the more developed regions of ""Eastern Europe"" reveals broad similarity in indicators such as quality of life, budget deficit and corruption. In fact, a global quality of life index by International Living (2010) places four ""Eastern European"" countries in the top 30 with Hungary leading at the 20th place.[15] ""[T]he term 'Eastern Europe' has become meaningless, both as a generic geographic or economic label.""[16][17][18][19][20]
[edit] CIA
The CIA World Factbook[21] describes the following countries as located in:
Central Europe: Austria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia
Eastern Europe: Belarus, Estonia[22], Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova and Ukraine
Southeastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Kosovo, Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey
Russia is defined as a transcontinental country.
in your face"
"As a Scot I know fully well about the bigotry, belittlement and downright nastiness, not only on a UK level with the Jock baiting but also with the downright level of aggressiveness that is displayed by some fellow Scots towards their countrymen so I can understand why some people feel the need to let our their frustrations but I fail to understand the level of vitriol towards AllyF on this forum.
Can someone please explain?"
"katthecat
I found your post to be quite boring. What was your point?"
"JockMcDoc
What is this thread 'Victims of the World Unite'?
Who is AllyF?"
"Beforeal
Why you want solve the problems of the whole world did anybody ask you?"
"BeForReal _AT_ 30 Apr 2010, 6:02PM
Maybe if you didn't spend as much time trolling and looked through the comments on this article you would know who AllyF is and the reaction to this comment which I am talking about."
"BeFor Real:
'fromcliffs
Are you speaking as an Englishman?
There is something about your sentence construction that makes me wonder!'
Proudly NOT (especially in this case:)... but what about you... are you speaking as an European? There is something in your mental construction that makes me wonder..."
"Beforreal
The point is educational and sorry for asking you but are you a Sun or a Guardian Reader?"
"Thank you, Milena, for raising this. Someone had to say something
I don't believe that xenophobia will ever stop being a political trump card - foreigners will always be blamed for poisoning wells, flooding or ""flocking"" any country.
Obviously immigration is vital for the economy, but the other issue is that it is illegal not to allow EU member states to flock here.
Anyway - just wanted to say thank you"
"Proudly: NOT (especially in this case:) But what about you... are you speaking as a European?
There is something about your mental construction that makes me wonder..."
"fromcliffs
I'm not sure if I am a European? Perhaps you can tell me what would entitled me to call myself European. Why do you say you are proud not to be an Englishman? Is this not a tad racist? Don't worry if you are I'm not as sensitive as JockMcDoc and I don't mind a bit of racism/Jock baiting. KattheCat: My answer re worlds problems was to 'ikithomozi'"
"BeForReal _AT_ 30 Apr 2010, 6:35PM

It's the first time I've head understanding where somebody is coming from is being sensitive?"
"JockMcDoc
It's the first time I've head understanding where somebody is coming from is being sensitive?
I don't understand your post! Habla Espanol?"
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"BeForReal
Aren?t you proud to be an Englishmen? You do not need to be racist if you are proud citizen of your country. It is not racism. I like Englishmen and English women:) but I do not think I need to treat them in any special, patronizing way or just differently then other European nations; especially in terms of ignorance, bigotery or racism. I do not want treat my English friends as people with learning difficulty, especially using this kind of stereotype... hope you do not want such a strange situation as well..."
"fromcliffs:
Aren?t you proud to be an Englishmen?
No because I am not English and I don't live in England, although I was never really offended when most people in other European countries assumed because I was from the UK that I was English."
"AllyF
I'm staggered that more people haven't picked up on the sheer ignorant bigotry of that remark. Far worse than anything Gillian Duffy is supposed to have said.
Still digging a completely pointless hole. The author's failings are so totally not the point here. It's very egotistical to blame one's own unexamined emotions on another person you know.
How fucking dare you?
As for visiting where you live. Well, Ally, that's more ego - why does it matter a flying fuck where you happen to live? What's so important about your experiences that they trump whatever mine might happen to be, or what the author's actually are?
Use your influence and get a column here on CiF for one of the 'Romas' who's causing so much trouble apparently."
I find it absolutely remarkable that the immigration discussion in this country is so dishonest. Gillian Duffy makes the comment she does, which you don't have to b Eastern European to be outraged at. Its not so long ago the sentiment was directed at Africans, Pakistanis and Afro-Carribbeans. And then the media and everyone will pretend that having such a reaction to her comments is to stifle an honest immigration debate. It is a nonsense. Let us be honest here - Britain has a history which whether you like it or not means that it has absolutely no right to tell anyone to go back to where they came from. Britain has spent most of its time being in countries in which it had no business being. And then it finds those whose lands it had turned to waste on its door step and it wonders why. Its dishonest and as an African, it is the single most infuriating aspect of my life. And the least any British person can do and I honestly don't care how ill educated you are, just as you dont care about me - there are enough books around - go and educate yourself. But the least you can do is talk about this very serious issue with a pinch of bloody respect for these immigrants you're talking about.
"katthecat
30 Apr 2010, 6:28PM
Beforreal
The point is educational and sorry for asking you but are you a Sun or a Guardian Reader?
Cheers thanks for the lesson. Anytime I can return the favour I would be glad to give you some English lessons."
"shootingfishuk:
Please tell me the name of your country and I will be happy to read all about it.
I will endeavour to educate myself.
There has got to be a better answer to the problems than to have everyone come to live & work the UK. It is just a small island. Have you any suggestions what we can do to make up for all the damage you say this country has done to your country."
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"_AT_BeForReal
You seem just the kind of individual who comes to all important issues with the required sense of open-mindedness and yearning for learning that assures me that your point of view is not only well-considered but absolutely necessary for a forward-moving dialogue that leads right to the kind of solution politicians and academics alike have been grasping for for so many decades.
You see, we can all be sarcastic but its not that clever.
I am Nigerian by the way but don't stress yourself out too much on all the reading available on the subject. Telling people their opinions are not valid because they cannot construct proper English sentences seems more your forte, you Oxford don you."
"shootingfishuk:
Thanks for letting me off the hook! I wasn?t looking forward to a lot of reading about Nigeria. I did read that Nigerians were the happiest people in the world and the Romanians were the unhappiest! I guess you are not one of the happy Nigerians."
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This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"shootingfishuk:
You are making me laugh me now! Everything you said about me is true although you have twisted my words a little. I did say 'I don't mind a bit of racism/Jock baiting' that's true I am never offended by anything anyone says about my nationality or ethnic origin.
I would never use the word 'spiffin' that is just too English/Posh for me 'Old Chap'"
"Thanks for your comments Dimitri - you've hit the nail on the head. The sanctimonious, self-righteous, ignorant, petty and hypocritical Mail, Express, Telegraph etc portray immigration as a one way street but what about all the Brits going abroad and setting up little British ghettos and refusing to integrate (they just shout loudly and slowly at the locals). Spain is a good example, and there are many more. Frequently they are the very same people who moan about 'Eastern Europeans' ruining the British way (whatever that is - binge drinking and obsessing over house prices?), yet they cannot see the irony of the situation. And to all those who get on their high horse about 'Eastern Europeans coming over here, taking our hardworking Brits' jobs', Britain has done a very good job at taking over the years: colonialism, imposing its culture on other countries, plundering their resources, etc. etc. The vast majority of migrants are just trying to make an honest living and to uproot and go and live in a different country shows initiative and drive in itself. Pity so many native Brits can't get off their fat rear-ends and show similar initiative.
And we're not living in the Cold War era any more - Poles, Czechs etc are Central Europeans."
"lapsed

I beg to differ. They are entirely the point here."
"Milena, I am an immigrant as well. Granted, not from Eastern Europe, but from Ireland - so not so far away from home. But an immigrant in a sometimes strange and wonderful country nonetheless.
No one has a problem with immigrants who have a right to be in the UK, whether from Eastern Europe or any other country. In fact, they are welcome, and I think most people would admit that they work hard and benefit the economy. However, I do think you are taking this comment too personally, and that immigration is a serious issue in the UK. Obviously black market economies are always going to be a drain on a country's resources, and there are other more destructive aspects of illegal immigration, like drug-running, gangs, sex slavery etc.
I think the Brown-bashing has been justified - this was not a media sting, as his team asked for the mike. He had definitely been briefed on the issue as it was debated on the first TV debate. His answer was a lazy dismissal of an issue that concerned Mrs Duffy. Granted, her phraseology was lazy and ignorant in blaming the ""other"", as many people's is, and no doubt heavily influenced by an equally lazy tabloid press - but calling someone a bigot based on what she actually said was over the top. This ""private"" conversation exposed Gordon Brown for what he is: unstable, a bully (he immediately blames poor ""Sue""), unfit to lead the countr"
"_AT_BeForReal
I am having great time with you. Its hilarious. I am sure you dont get offended by things people say about your nationality/ethnic origin. Good for you. How often do people call you a Kaffa in the street? people you have never spoken to, met or seen, in your life? Its South African for Nigger. Let me tell you something my jolly friend, that happens to you a few times, and you get a little jittery, lets say, at bigotry.
Its past my bed time now but I'd like to impress on you that immigration policy should never stem from the fact that Polish people in your area don't seem to want to talk to you. Maybe you're not offering them enough of an interesting talking point.
And no one is saying you have to go reading about every former British colony in order to come upon sensible solutions to immigration but it would be benefit the national conversation that when you talk about immigrants you bear in mind that we are not synthetic 'others' who have come here for the mere pleasure of annoying British people who detest speaking languages that are not English. History is a gloriously continuous process and and you will find that this ""problem"", the EU aside, has not just ""happened"" to this country."
"shootingfishuk:
I live in Scotland not South Africa and I am so white I am almost pale blue so the chances of anyone calling me a Kaffa/Nigger are highly unlikely.
I get the impression you are not too keen on British people so I am wondering why you have chosen to live here?"
"_AT_BeForReal
Why do you get the impression I don't like British people? This is the hypocrisy of the so-called debate. We have been prompted by Gillian Duffy to talk about immigration because her being called a bigot by the Prime Minister was deemed unreasonable. It is being said that those who have reacted to her words about ""flocking"" Eastern Europeans are stifling 'honest debate'. So I have come on here and added my 2 cents like everyone else as a small way of explaining why we foreigners would prefer a slightly more respectful tone in this conversation if this debate is going to lead to anything positive both for British people and stupid foreigners like myself who have decided to come and live/work here. And because of that I now, in your words, dislike British people.
I do not wish to bore you with the details of why I came here but let me make it clear I have been here for 12 years. I came here as a 13 year old child with my parents who themselves have lived here for 50 years. The education system in my home country was deemed unacceptable. That's Nigeria's fault not yours but hey. I have been in depthly educated here as has my entire family. My partner is white and British. My sister was born here and is British.
I don't think you want to have an honest conversation about this and that is fine. But don't you and the Ms Duffys of the world pretend that you do. You want to tell me how you feel, you want to be able to call me whatever you think is fitting and you want to be able to tell me to go back where I came from. And you want to do all this whilst I keep my mouth shut. And if I dare open it, then I don't like British people. Maybe Britain isn't ready for an honest discussion about this - like you say its only a small litttle innocent island nation - it has not ever tried to punch above its weight before. But when it is ready, I would be happy and willing to have it."
"Well she was speechless and cried ?? I find that hard to believe as Ms Milena Popova has been in the UK for 10 years and has lived in other european countries too. (Austria and Germany) For a Bulgarian lady to be so so shocked while she has been working in European countries for many years before Bulgaria came into the EU is unbelievable.
Anger at Gillian Duffy -Why?? She spoke the truth. Many eastern european citizens HAVE flooded into the UK, is that in dispute??
It is beside the point that on average they are hard workers,it is just that there are too many of them."
"Ally, you've lost it mate. She wrote an over-emotional, not all that cool conclusion to a piece about personal feelings just as valid as the ones felt by your neighbours. How did you and your feelings become such an important part of the story? I just don't get it. You're often wrong but you've always been worth talking to (except when spinning out laboured anti-Brown jokesey stuff maybe.)
Anyway, Milena will survive, Mrs Duffy will probably pocket a fair bit of cash and we'll move on eh?"
"I find this disingenuous ?this looks like an attempt on your part to illicit sympathy from the reader ? but it is a failed attempt. Yes, I know how hard it is to live in a foreign culture, I?ve done it myself when I have lived abroad, but feeling sorry for yourself isn?t really a trait that many people sympathise with, Ms Popova. You have made the decision to live here, living in a different culture has its advantages and disadvantages ? sure people could be more understanding, but it is what it is, writing an article full of your personal angst and victim mentality isn?t going to make people understand.

As I said above, you choose to live here, this is not your native country what on earth makes you believe you are entitled to vote? Paying your taxes is all well and good, and I am sure that you and many others work hard, but you have to acknowledge that you are not British Citizen just because you pay tax, I don?t live abroad and expect representation from a foreign government ? so why are you bemoaning something that is inevitable?

Welcome to British politics. I am frankly surprised you haven?t heard worse comments from British people down your local pub. I don?t agree with some attitudes British people take towards immigrants, but Gillian Duffy did not actually say anything bigoted except daring to ask a question on immigration. If you are going to take such comments personally, I suggest simply not watching the news.

Guess what, Ms Popova, British citizens ARE entitled because it is our country, we have a right to be listened to because this is our native home and culture. Don?t get me wrong, having immigrants in the country adds to the economy and it is a good thing, but what I don?t like is people like yourself making out that the British are not entitled to have their opinions heard because it upsets you. The world does not revolve around you, and it is unreasonable to expect British people to change because you want it to be so.
?Be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that you are trying to educate yourself, to understand and to become a better person. Listen. Don't judge. Maybe you'll learn something.?
Now who is being bigoted? This is the most condescending part of this article ? just who do you think you are? Maybe you should take your own advice and actually speak with the British public without judging us all to be ignorant of immigrant communities. You really must have very little love for the British that you think we each need to do what you advise in order to become ? and I quote ? a better person? Shame on you and your hypocrisy, Ms Popova.
Lose the victim-mentality and the chip off your shoulder and tone down the angst maybe you can actually get a decent dialogue here about how difficult it is for immigrants living in a foreign culture. I am very interested in this kind of discussion because I have lived abroad myself and understand what it feels like and I can empathise with immigrants living in Britain. But as it stands, if you approached me with that attitude I?d just as quickly tell you to dry those damn eyes and go back home."
"lapsed _AT_ 1 May 2010, 6:03AM

Considering how Mrs Duffy found out in a really painful way what the leader of the party who she voted for all her life and lived by the ideals that the party was founded thought of her I don't grudge her getting some financial recompense."
You obviously never lived or worked in Spain then :P
"Shootingfishuk:
Gillian Duffy did not say ?flocking? Eastern Europeans. I think you are being hyper-sensitive you are twisting peoples words to suit your own agenda. You are looking for ?racism? where none exists. You seem to want to put yourself in the role of victim.
I don?t think I could have any form of discussion with you until you get rid of the gigantic chip you seem to have on your shoulder. From my perspective Britain has bent over backwards to be accommodating and respectful to the many races & cultures who live here and I think we have reached the stage where we are tired of hearing your demands. I am afraid to communicate with any ethnic minority in case I offend them and find myself being accused of racism."
"From article:

This debate is over as it is going round in circles but one last post, hopefully.
This goes to the heart of this debate. It seems that opinions about negative aspects about immigration is being interpreted as attacks on individual immigrants.
There is no doubt that those you don't like immigrants period are exploiting this for their own ends but there are folk like Mrs Duffy who are genuinely concerned about the effects of immigration on them and their loved ones and are afraid to express it because they are scared and more importantly that are giving support to the anti-immigration brigade. I think a little more understanding should be given to those people who are caught in the position where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I guess that what happens when immigration is left to go out of control."
"CulturalCate
Fantastic post! Well done. I totally agree with everything you have said.
Vinohrady
?Brits going abroad and setting up little British ghettos and refusing to integrate (they just shout loudly and slowly at the locals). Spain is a good example, and there are many more.?
The people you are describing are people who have gone to Spain to retire. British people who work in Spain have to be able to speak the language they are mostly running their own business or working in the tourist trade. All the jobs requiring a minimum of language skills are being done by the Spanish. Gordon Brown did say that millions have gone from this country to work in Europe. Apart from Spain where have they gone?
?Pity so many native Brits can't get off their fat rear-ends and show similar initiative. ?
Pity you can?t be more supportive or understanding why they don?t."
"JockMcDoc
Very well said."
"BeForReal _AT_ 1 May 2010, 10:23AM

Lol. I thought you were going to say I was being over sensitive!!
Funnily enough I am actually taking that as a compliment because I have been pulled up a few times in real life with my frank comments against immigration. Maybe I do go too far sometimes and don't connect brain to mouth but I am trying my best to stop doing it!"
"Hi Jock
No I didn't think you were being over sensitive today.
I had my doubts about you last night when you were complaining about 'Jock baiting'
Have a good week-end. xxx"
"BeForReal _AT_ 1 May 2010, 10:48AM

I was trying to put across the point that it is not only the immigrants that get alienated by comments put across in some parts of the media and that I understand their position. Apologies if it never came across that way.
Have a good weekend too."
"Great article, thanks for this.
The real story though, was that we got to see what our modern democracies are all about. One, the public politician asking for votes, tolerating a bigot to her face and asking politely about her grandkids. On the other hand, actually being honest (but only when in the car, thinking votes weren't up for grabs etc. etc.) The tragedy is, for a second I gained a lot of respect for Brown after he called her bigotted. The second he apologised I knew he was spineless, like all of our ""representatives""."
"JockMcDoc _AT_ 1 May 2010, 11:17AM
Also just to say in my experience it is fellow Scots who are worse for Jock baiting than English people. I can understand the frustrations of the English with the some of the unfairness of the union that benefits Scotland and taking a step back, I can see why some perceive the arrogance of Salmond and fellow SNP politicians but in their defence at least they are honest and transparent about their agenda. What I can't understand is the hatred and contempt some Scots have to their brethren but I guess that is our nature as we have a tendency to fight with our own shadows.
Anyway, that is something that needs to be discussed elsewhere and probably goes back to my earlier comment about differentiating between debating on policies towards communities rather than individuals of that community."
"_AT_Vinohrady said

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. You probably just think you're being funny, or possibly you really believe that this is all that British immigrants ever do, but in either case that right there is real bigotry, sonny.
Guess what? You're wrong. British people can and do learn other languages. They can and do integrate. Despite endless intolerance, crass stereotyping and bigotry. Sure, some fail to do so or just don't see the point - just like many immigrants into this country. But many do. You'll never admit it, though - it's more fun to sling mud around the stage than to take the time to understand the plot.
Sad."
"shootingfishuk:
Now you are being explicitly dishonest with yourself. She did say flocking. She said ""where are they FLOCKING from""
That is what she said. She did not say 'Flocking' Eastern Europeans. You have twisted her words as have many others to try to suggest she said 'F*ckin Eastern Europeans'
This suggests to me that you want to be a victim.
I'm not afraid of names and if you want to call me a racist or a bigot that's OK. There's not a lot I can do about it there is no law protecting me from your name calling. I on the other hand have to tread very carefully. I have to watch my every word. I could end up in court being charged with racial abuse because I was not aware of the politically correct term to use when expressing my views hence my reluctance to enter into any discussion with ethnic minorities."
"_AT_BeForReal
ahh.. poor you. you could end up in court now, could you? who is the victim now? How pathetic. Believe it or not I dont want to call you a rascist or a bigot. I have no idea who you are. I just know a person who explicitly says they don't want to enter into discussions with ethnic minorities because they are not aware of the politcally correct terms to use has some serious issues. God help us all. Well I am an ethnic minority and I deeply apologize for engaging in conversation with you over this issue and for any pain it may have caused you having to do it. So i'm over and out here.
_AT_AllyF
While I do not completely agree with everything you have said, you have expressed sentiments that have gone a long way to making me see the other side of this issue. I think if Gillian Duffy had expressed herself the way you did - which is to say Prime Minister, no one told us, that in my neighbourhood we would see such a huge influx of Polish people when they joined the European Union, why didn't anybody tell us and so on and so forth, I doubt Brown would have had any reason to say what he said.
And while I am not saying that people have to speak in a certain way for their opinions to be valid I do believe that in this kind of a debate how you express yourself is important especially if you are going to do it with the Prime Minister on national news."
"Shootingfishuk
No problem ?shootingfish? I?m quite happy engaging in conversation with you on this forum. I have the moderators to keep me right in case of any slip up on my part. It has been quite enlightening to hear your point of view.
shootingfishuk:
?And while I am not saying that people have to speak in a certain way for their opinions to be valid I do believe that in this kind of a debate how you express yourself is important especially if you are going to do it with the Prime Minister on national news.?
Please tell me why it is important?"
"I thing there are many angry people here with lot's of personnel issue
And by the way Beforreal I probably know more about Great Britain than you do,(thanks for offering me free lesson,I will pass)more to the point as I already say there are bad people and good people,people come from different background,and we do live in 21 century not in medieval time.Im not trying to pick a fight,so be nice and group up.So if you believe that you are wright that's fare enough,but we all have wright to do so,no matter where we come from."
"katthecat:
I wasn't offering you a free geography lesson I was offering you help with your English. Why would you assume you know more about Great Britain than I do?
Are we having some sort of contest?
If you believe your are wright that is fare enough. I believe I am right and that too is fair enough. Sorry I couldn't resist!
I thought when you asked me if I was a Sun or a Guardian reader you were looking for a bit of a spat.
I am always happy to oblige and will I give as good as I get. If you really want a hug you will have to do a bit more grovelling."
"BeForReal:
They are not just retired people. Many are of working age, and have not learned Spanish. I have read about plenty of cases and seen a documentary about Britons in Spain. And even if they were all retired, they still need to have some linguistic skills, surely? And There are Britons who have bought up property in France, Italy and Bulgaria.
millinonesuch:
I am not saying all Brits fail to learn other language. I live abroad myself and speak the local language, and I know many Britons living in other countries who do so too. But there IS a problem with Britons going abroad and failing to fit in and then having the cheek to whinge about immigrants 'taking over' or 'ruining our way of life'. And then there's the problem of drunken holidaymakers in Faliraki for example, or stag parties being out of order in Prague. I've seen plenty of examples of the latter. Maybe it's because Briton is an island and/or a throwback to the Empire, but there's no excuse for such culturally insensitive behaviour and attitudes."
"I understand that you feel discriminated against but she was asking a perfectly legitimate and valid question and besides, what does ""all the people who didn't stand up to her"" mean? I like to think we live in a country where people are allowed to ask questions of their political leaders, I believe that's called the freedom of speech, just like you have the freedom to post on this website how you feel.
I would also like to point out that I doubt she was referring to the immigrants such as yourself who have come here legally and contribute as much to the society and economy as you do, and more to the illegal immigrants who's only contribution is forming underground criminal organisations and supplying drugs, weapons and prostitution rings, and if you believe that these people don't exist then I'm sorry but you are both ignorant and naive.
I completely believe in the integration of other ethnic communities into ours but at the same time, people have a right to question it. That is what the freedom of speech and opinion is all about."
I am still chuckling at the thought of Milena Popova's 'great heaving sobs'.
There has been a sudden and massive influx of human beings from a specific source. The sustainability of this population growth (with regards to the economy, welfare and social cohesion) is questionable. This unheralded occurance is at the very least confusing to someone who has lived in that area for 66 years. This is the concern Mrs Duffy raised in a very calm and reasoned way without attacking or blaming anyone. It is a terrible shame you have taken it so personally.
"I would actually also like to add that I find your subtitle ""This disenfranchised eastern European will receive no apology"" is provocative and misleading as you are insinuating that you have been denied the right to vote. As an EU resident you are allowed to vote in local and parliamentary elections without British citizenship, but to vote in a general election you are required to have citizenship and I see nothing wrong with this.
I can think of no other country in the world where you can vote in the equivalent of the general election without being a citizen of that country and I wouldn't expect to have that right in another country, so for you to assume that you should have that right is this country is quite frankly insulting. It's presumably been your choice not to naturalise and gain the right to vote but please don't insinuate, and that is exactly what you have done, that you have been denied it because of who you are."
"She's now come out and said she won't vote because of this.
This woman claims to be a lifelong labour supporter.
She doesn't have to vote for Brown, she votes for her LOCAL candidate. Can someone explain this to her.......Please.
I am personally offended by David Cameron every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even wait til he's off mike to offend me! Can I get the publicity that Gillian Duffy has got?
Just an aside: One of my pals told me yesterday that The Guardian has come out in support of the Liberal democrats.... that's a joke right?"
"Well Milena Popova perhaps we can try to educate the 'unbigoted' of Britain with contemporary art?!? If like that 'un-bigoted' woman of Rochdale they wonder about 'all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?', they might be in luck.
The Viennafair of contemporary art (May 5th-9th) not only has an on-line catalogue search tool that might educate the ?un-bigoted? about the names of Central and Eastern European countries; it will even focus on their contemporary art, which they might bring with them to compete for British art collectors, grants and press coverage. Sorry I started to try to scare the 'unbigoted' again, it is just so easy.
With the UK descending into a theatre where it is important to make newcomers feel as unwelcome as possible, perhaps it is time to take a trip to Vienna between May 5th to the 9th for something a little less little-islander and more stimulating to say the least. If people take a little time to reflect whilst they are there, it might also be possible to think of a few nearby historic warnings which demonstrate the dangers of worrying too much about where our neighbours were born and what their heritage is."
"Well Dr Jo I might eventually get around to looking at the Art, Culture, Geography and History of Eastern Europe. In the meantime I am busy with Islamic Art, Hindu Art, Sikhism, Buddhism, Chinese Art & Culture, African Art, Jamaica Art and when I am finished with all of that I might get around to looking at Eastern European Art & Culture. No promises that I will look at contemporary art I generally find it is a load of ****** ****!
However I will carry out the survey suggested by Milena Popova.
I wont forget to be nice and polite, approach them carefully, explain that I am trying to educate myself; I will try to understand and to become a better person. I?ll listen I wont judge. Perhaps I?ll learn something.
1. What it's like being an immigrant in the UK?
2. How does it feel to be so far away from home?
3. What is it like to leave your life behind and start again from scratch?
4. What is it like to be in the middle of a general election where you have no voice?
5. Why did you come here?
6. What do you like about Britain?
7. What don?t you like about Britain
8. What's it like where you come from?
Are you an immigrant? Would you like to start the ball rolling by completing my online survey? I get the feeling from reading this forum that there will bit quite a high number of negative responses to No 6."
Afghanistan?
"Brilliant, Ed. I agree with nearly everything you have said, but...
You are supposed to be the most left wing of all the candidates, so does the error you admitted today stand alone, or just maybe, were the neoliberal economic thinking that justified them wrong too?"
"Very depressing to see a member of the Labour party go in for some cheap immigrant bashing.
Too lazy to actually develop a counter-argument you've decided to try to pander to all of the prejudices and bigots. I guess you must be really desperate for the support of the racist wing of the Labour party in the leadership election."
I for one will never vote for you. You may think there are votes in racism, and you may be right, but you should focus on the people you have alienated by your slide to the right, not the few bigots who will be impressed by this bullshit.
In view of this admission I expect the Labour Party to elect Mrs. Duffy as their next leader. At least she invoked the question when we required an answer, not when she required votes!
How about a language test? Free movement within the EU, but to settle one must pass a proficiency test in the language of the local area. Oh, I know the expat UKs in Spain would not be happy with it, but why not try it?
So how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?
"So our European partners should humbly learn from Labour's exemplary stewardship of our economy?
Hmmm ........"
"Ed Balls

Nope.
""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""
Roost - Home - Coming - To - Chickens?
Thanks for the article though. It has revealed you as being just a little bit further to the right than Genghis Khan.
I am so glad you people were removed from office. You appeared to have learned absolutely nothing during your month out of government.

What you really mean is this: give me another chance to show you all that I wont listen to anyone.

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who said something like...
""British jobs for British workers""
Barely one month out of government and already you have forgotten all of the lies that were posted by labour.
Tell you what... why don't you just go away. You are no longer wanted nor are you trusted. You have sown lies and dishonesty and it is no surprise to find that your mendacity is reaping the rewards.
*_AT_%$ &^)! (expletive deleted)"
"Immigration, holocaust denial, Turkey and the BNP in one article.
Just missing out on paedophiles to seal the deal there Ed.. If only you would run for leadership...
Oh hold on...
Labour is out for the count for the next 8 years. Let's hope you (and the Sillybands et al) have retired/passed on/emigrated by then.
Oh hold on..
Then you will be an immigrant elsewhere. I rather wonder, Kennedy Scholar and all, whether you would pass a points system since you're not actually qualified to do anything useful.."
"It isn't 'Eastern Europeans' that most of the Uk population has a problem with, Ed.
Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too.
One cannot say the same about other arrivals, who appear to have no interest or empathy with the host culture."
"Ah I see. So, your strategy for winning the leadership is to out-Tory the Tories on immigration.
Of course this article could have been titled, ""We were wrong on immigration"". But, why go for that, when you can single out a particular group."
"What you did was fail to tackle the fact that immigration in this country has never been debated honestly or with the needs of the country at hand. It has always been a football between right and left. You decided to switch hit to the right because you thought that it would be good for the Daily Mail vote plain and simple. You miscalculated the effect that opening up the EU would have and you didn't respond to it.
Immigration was a racial issue. That's becuase in the past 100 years it has always been framed in that way. Immigration was keeping undesirable brown people out of the country. That is how it was framed. The debate became intertwined with the idea a lost colonial past and a last gasp effort to keep a sense of ""Britishness"". That was how the policy was built.
The last Tory govt. decided that it would be a great election pledge to keep the immigration policy closely linked to the race issue too. Hence Norman Tebbit and his cricket test. The gave an amnesty to those already here and then sealed up all the laws as much as possible. They wanted to make sure that the sub-continent, the dark people of the earth would stay out, and routes for legal immigration shrunk. Unsuprisingly that lead to a rise in other methods being used by migrants.
You could have stopped this. You could have turned it around. You didn't. You accepted it. You played up to it. You and Mr Blunket decided that places like Sangatt should exist. You decided on detention centres for Asylum Seekers.
Why? Because you were terrified of that Daily Mail vote, You sacrificed any pretense of fairness, any attempt to diffuse the deep underlying racial prejudices of the immigration system and hoped it would no one would notice because you were so busy showing everybody how tough your jack boots could be.
You could have sat down with the Little Old Ladies of Oldham and explained to them that if they wanted to be treated by the NHS - South Asian doctors were going to be the way to go, because we had a shortage. You didn't. You let the right ride you on the agenda.
Worse of all, you decided that the Middle Class was your stomping ground. You didn't build the council houses people needed. The market would provide, you prayed. It didn't.
You didn't pull as many people out of poverty you could have done, and you let the resentment simmer and bubble. All the while being stoked by the right, and the press that back them. To cap it all you ignored them.
So when the two combined, when the demagogues came, and the ""I'm not racist but..."" started appearing, fueled by the failure of your government to address the real problems of the poor. When you were faced with debates on immigration where to the old underlying racist DNA asserted itself, you panicked, you didn't know what to do.
Too late you realised that maybe we should have a popper immigration system based on needs, skills and a clear route to citizenship. Too late, you began to put systems in place that should have been there in the first place.
But you couldn't kick the habbit. You couldn't stop yourself lunging once more for the easy floating voter hit available from the right wing press. You decided to ""get even tougher"" with immigrant.
You boasted like cartoon villains about how you were deporting Asylum seekers from the wars YOU started. You fought against reason and common sense to deprive heroic Gurkhas, who have sweated generations of blood for this country, of their right to live in here.
All this came from your original sin. The sin that you, Blair, Brown, Milliband Squared and the other ""new"" Labour people consummated.
In May 1997 your compass for a Social Democratic road map broke, and it took thirteen years for the you to sink."
I supported the Trade Union backed No2EU-Yes to Democracy, which rejected the neo-liberal, free market model of an intergrated European market. Big business and the rich quite rightly support a European free trade, pro-privatisation, anti-union free market. But lets not call this democracy and lets not pretend that European intergration is in the interest of working people.
"I'm afraid you'll find no friends here Ed.
The right-wing trolls will always hate you.
We lefties will always see you as a traitor and a bully."
I wish Ed would quit blaming economic migration for the erosion of support in his constituency.
Robi - hate the sin, not the sinner....... ever heard of the saying, "best of a bad bunch"?
"You can't fool us. The choice of the title of your piece alone was clearly a cynical attempt to try and appeal to the more vulnerable Gillian Duffy's of this world. Yet I grant people like her with enough insight to see people like you for the scum you are.
He really thought that anyone reading the Guardian would appreciate his ploy?
He should have tried the Daily Mail."
Amberstar - if the Tories spent approx £120,000 to get you out of a job, what would you blame? When all's said and done, Ed Balls is a reasonable man!!
You were wrong a lot of the time and arrogantly refuse to change tack. Now accept your well deserved fate and disappear.
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Balls!
"Despicable.
You should be ashamed."
"In government for 13 years but only now admit to the errors that people have been shouting from the f*cking rooftops for the duration. Sickening. Out of office but still Labour takes us for fools.
Iraq, then immigration, when's the admission of economic incompetence coming?"
"Seriously Mr Balls, do you honestly think anyone believes a damn word any Labour politician (other than perhaps Frank Field or Kate Hoey) says about most issues but especially immigration?
Really? The above is nothing more than self serving hypocritical balderdash of the highest or should that be lowest order."
Yes... your populist, cynical, anti-immigrant and frankly self-contradictory rant left us in no doubt as to your motivations.
"Although during the New Labour years you of course never actually tried to stand up to the anti EU hysteria whipped up by the right wing media.

And free movement of capital? How many companies are just relocating lock stock and barrel to eastern Europe?
With friends like you Europe doesn't need enemies. Tired cliches combined with all the original thought of an Alabama creationist."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
"Ed your goverment nearly turned this country ito a stasi east german state with all your repressive laws
Dont try and wipe your hands of the mess you made of our civil liberties and human rights in this country
CCTV cameras/ goverment databases/council officals going through our bins/police behaviour at the G20 demo/illegal wars around the war which we took part in acting like some colonist power/ digital bill that crimised 14 million people who download music
Get lost ED we now have a coalition who with the great repeal act will try to undo and restore our human rights
Emma"
"It's strange you said none of these things when you were Brown's right-hand man.
In fact your position in this article seems to be the exact opposite of Gordon Brown's... despite him being your politcal ally.
In fact I would suggest that you are attempting to distance yourself from the political dead weight that is Brown.
No one will take you for anything more than a turncoat (at best)."
"ariksilverman (6 Jun 2010, 12:28AM);

There are many, many more English-speaking non-Brits than there are Brits who speak other European languages. Such a test would therefore make it much easier for other Europeans to settle in the UK than for UK citizens to settle in the Eurozone.
This doesn't bother me personally, but it's hardly a solution to what the article claims to be a problem."
"_AT_Mr Balls

Though it's just fine for capital to move freely, effectively moving labour from one place to another, so that we can have cheap foreign imports, often produced by workers on near slave wages. Essentially, we want the benefits of globalisation without the flipside - we can dish out the shit, but not take it.

So it's ok for us to take other peoples jobs, the good ones at that, but it's not ok for other people to take our jobs, even the shit ones? So we want one rule for us and another for everyone else. Bollocks.

So maybe, as their MP, you could campaign for stronger worker protection and a decent living minimum wage, and better housing provision."
24 carat pure comedy gold.
"'Phil Woolas .. great job...'
And this man wants to be the Leader of the Labour Party?"
Bugger, sorry for the double posting - server not found bollocks.
Oh please, anyone with half a brain (i.e. everyone outside the cabinet) always knew that they were political, not economic tests.
I have lost all respect for this man. He is a bigot, pure and simple.
"So, a world that's 'open and fair', and allows 'Free movement of goods and services' as part of this. Or a world that's open to further exploitation by Business, in other words.
But if you're a Romanian, Turkish or Bulgarian worker, you can f*cking whistle.
One rule for the ruling class, and another for the working class. This is neither 'open' nor 'fair'.
Working people in this country - 'native' and 'immigrant' alike - need strong unions to protect their pay and conditions, and to fight for improvements in them, as has always been the case. They need people in government who'll support them in this endeavor.
Shame on Ed Balls for trying to play workers off against each other."
Whether the UK government demands a decent standard of English to work in the UK has nothing at all to do with any other language nor any other country.
"It is perfectly possible to argue that Turkey has no place in Europe. As it is possible to argue that the free movement of labour will help Europe. But it is utter rubbish to argue you are a pro-European while arguing to limit the freedoms that are a key part of the vision.
When will Ed Balls and the rest of this pathetic crop of Labour leaders understand that tactics, positioning and politicking are no substitute for principles, strategy and vision???"
I don't agree with Balls.
"_AT_thfc123

Aren't us Brits renowned for our ""DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH"" approach when we're abroad - we haven't got a f***ing leg to stand on when it comes to ""you live here, you must speak the language""."
"Thank god these nutcases didn't get back in.
Turkey in the EU - aren't there enough race and culture issues already without going looking for more. And lets get the EU drawn into all the conflicts in the middle east as well.
And why pick on the Poles, they come here, fit in, speak English and work hard. Britain is a better place for them. You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos, or vast numbers of unemployed Poles or Polish radicalisation. Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist. And it has the advantage that the EU immigrants don't need to become UK citizens so they don't vote."
What a shame that not quite enough voters turned out in Morley & Outwood to turf this odious person out of office.
"""We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain""...
Yes and you were wrong about absolutely EVERYTHING else."
"nottydave
You just don't get it. No matter how ignorant English people abroad are it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the UK government insisting on a decent level of English to work in the UK. Whether English people abroad speak the native language or not is for the government of that country that those people happen to be in.
The two have NOTHING to do with one another."
Having worked with a number of poles & latvians on building sites ,one mistake seems to be made by many of the PC crwod on here & MPs.Eastern Europeans ,what does that mean?,it does not exist as a nation.The Poles dislike the Latvians,The Poles are by & large good workers & good to work with, but they can & do put the BNP to shame for racism towards black & asians & the Irish ,who have been priced out in a lot of areas hate them all.I know this does not dovetail with with the norm when it comes to racism but it is very lazy to pidgen hole this topic any other way.
"Thank goodness it was Eastern Europeans and not Turks.
They are beginning to scare me."
"If there are restrictions on migrants from Romania why is it listed on this housing application form I'm looking at along with Czech Reb, Estonia and twenty other countries.
Turkey isn't listed. I wonder why?
Who benefits from the European project? It's not helping to lift people out of poverty where I live. Indeed its exacerbating the poverty by forcing more people to compete for jobs and housing. And why should housing go to someone from Hungary whose family own acres of land, and here would be classed middle class?"
Turkish accession to the EU has nothing to do with culture or race, tomedinburgh. Whether you like the possibility or not, the idea is widely supported across Europe (except by Greece). Sadly, Britain is already involved in the middle east, as 27% of Israeli citizens either have or could claim a British Passport and the Balfour Declaration of 1917 formalised the British policy of creating a Jewish state. Anyway, recognising that Europe Union is primarily and economic impetus and that Turkey has been as associate member of the EU and its predecessors since 1963, and that it would provide the UK economy with an additional 74m customers, I think Ed Balls' position on the issue is not pivotal to his candidature for Labour Leadership (all leaders since Harold Wilson have favoured Turkish accession to EC, as have many Conservatives and ALL liberal party leaders.
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"Yet more posts about being on the ""right"" wrt political views.
Many people I speak with to claim to clearly understand what is meant by ""right"" and ""left"", though I rarely hear the same explanation as to exactly what each means, making the terms essentially useless in discourse.
If you think Balls is a racist, then say it. Don't tar those who believe in limited state involvement in individuals' lives and relatively free markets with being prejudiced nutters.
For the record, I don't believe Balls is prejudiced against foreigners or skin colour. I just think he's a git."
Ed talking Balls again. What a disgraceful and transparent gesture. Retire from politics forever you charlatan.
"Shameless populism!
To restrict immigration will not secure work for unemployed Brits. It's so stupid what you write, that I can't understand why anyone would let you be a minister, let alone thier leader. If you became the PM of UK, I'd give up on your country.
Is this the new, New Labour? God help us all.
Why don't you stay home with the kids? I am sure you'd make a fine unskilled labour at home and, if unpaid, even better."
"_AT_ BunnyFlumplekins
So you're basically saying 'don't diss the right'.
It's a nice neoliberal fasion that the right has managed to concot a media image of itself of everything good from sugar and spice to absolute freedom.
The truth, as we know, is a little farther away, however.
Libertarianism is just the fetish of a few right-wing crackpots... the true face of the right is rperesented by Conservative Philosophers like Edmund Burke and Conservative actions like guantanamo bay."
"Now Balls,
What was the average rate of inflation since May 1997?
Just for your edification inflation is the excess money in an economy over and above that required for goods and services.
You and your chums debased the currency at an alarming rate creating a slushy economy which showed nominal growth but deflated by the rate of monetary inflation showed a contraction in real growth for most of the 13 years you were in office, unlike the 1990s under Clarke.
However you all conspired to flood the UK with cheap labour to avoid the 1978/9 Winter of Discontent even allowing any immigrant, criminal or not, into this Country. The move of John Gieves from the Treasury to the Home Office coincided with opening of the flood of immigrants. The costs to the taxpayer and to Citizens of unrestricted immigration will be with us for years: crowded schools, hospitals, lack of housing, increased TB & HIV rates, masses of money spent on translators by Local Authorities, Courts etc....
I suggest that you personally transfer to the Exchquer from your own funds the cost of the mess you left and join the queue for Public Housing.
If you win then we will have a Tory Government for decades."
"Turkey is not, and has never been Europe and Turkish people are not europeans. These are plain facts.
Turkey's cultural differences with Europe are so wide that EU accession could never work, and would be a disaster for both Europe and Turkey."
"Wow - first Iraq was wrong (finally) and now this!
What a principled politician the people of Morley have had this last decade - one who only ""speaks his mind"" when there's no more advantage in kow-towing to the status quo.
Balls is not a politician. Politicians have balls."
"_AT_robi
By all means argue against those with political views you disagree with. My point is that the term ""right-wing"" is bandied about without a consistent understanding of what it actually means, just as understanding of 'class' is becoming increasingly variable as society evolves.
By all means argue against free markets, pay inequality, illegal detention, etc - I'm just suggesting that the use of certain terms is unhelpful in these discussions.
Though I hold my hands up and admit the use of the term ""git"" is not exactly my most lucid contribution."
Australian style migration restrictions should be applied to all people wishing to settle here. And then the problem would be solved.
"False. It is supported overwhelmingly by elite politicians and journalists, but overwhelmingly opposed by the actual people of Europe, particularly in France, Germany and Austria. It is significant that both Germany and Austria have large Turkish immigrant populations. In other words, they've already seen the Turks up close.

It wouldn't provide any more customers. The Turkish economy is already treated as if Turkey was in the EU. There are no trade barriers so Turkish accession to the EU wouldn't affect economic relations in any way."
"Wow, what a truly evil and calculating thing to say!
Balls is fully aware that in many parts of the country people are extremely concerned about non-European immigration, because it is permanent and it changes the communities permanently. Yet he diverts the argument to Eastern Europeans, who don`t ask for UK passports and usually don`t bring their families.
Britain`s problem is mass permanent immigration - it is not Polish gastarbeiters.
Sneaky and despicable. I`d like to apologise to Eastern Europeans for this. Horrible."
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"If the EU worked Britain's would be working there, but in fact the numbers doing so are very low, most emergration from the UK is still to English speaking countries (NZ, USA, Canada and Australia) and Spain which of course is retired people not working ones.
Without better teaching of languages which in the UK is terrible at, the freedom of working across Europe is meaningless, and works against Britain as Europeans come here in large numbers but we do not move and work there, its all one way.
The benefit of a large European market for goods, is enjoyed most by shareholders, whilst workers in the UK, have to complete for jobs with both UK people and those coming from Europe."
"Algebraist :
Immigration was a racial issue.
Racism?, maybe.
Space, certainly.
Some will argue that there is no shortage of the former, but the latter is limited."
"ColonelWingate

I could not agree more, and whilst politicians speak about immigration THIS year and new limits its the uncontrolled immigration of the last forty years that is the problem.
Once you give someone citizenship, you are by default giving all their offspring it too. Getting citizenship should take 20 years, you should be skilled, speak English and not claim benefit or commit crime. Being a first world nation, we have not reason to just give away citizenship, why would we choose to dilute our own rights? create more competition for our children for jobs?
Why have we taken so many people all from one part of the world? Who live in ghettos, living as they would where they come from, ignoring the locals, who have mostly moved away because they do not want to live in a foreign ghetto in their own country.
how does it benefit us?
Its utterly ridiculous."
Wh ocares who wins the leadership of Zanu-Labour, provided they remain out of office for at least a generation, until the evil theives of civil liberties ar all too long in the tooth to remain in Parliament. Then, hopefully, their successors will be more freedom-loving.
"Or lastly as I wrote on another thread.
There is nothing wrong with liking your country and its way of life, and not wishing to see it destroyed by immigration and 'multiculturalism'"
"you're probably right about where the support comes from gkelly. I'd be surprised if most European citizens supported it. I don't know.
Full accession would certainly improve free movement of goods and services for UK businesses into Turkey, thereby improving revenue for British businesses. I wasn't trying to justify or deny Turkey's full membership of EU, but merely counter the general belief that Ed Balls was not in tune with mainline concerns by mentioning it in his article."
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"So this is it is it, these are the thoughts and analysis that will make you leader of the opposition and then in just under five years, the Prime Minister?
I think not, I think you have just displayed you intellectual shallowness and lack of moral foundations.
I hope, indeed offer up an Atheists prayer, that you do become leader of the Labour Party, it deserves your thoughtful leadership and farsighted guidance."
"The free access to the UK jobs market for Eastern Europeans was merely a cynical Thatcherite ploy to avoid having to provide money to train UK residents for skilled and semi-skilled jobs.
Not the mention the great advantage of a willing workforce from an economically backward area which would actually consider the minimum wage as good money and be an obedient and compliant workforce.
Why then is Balls so interested in the accession of Turkey into the EU except as another great well of super cheap sweatshop fodder?
Balls gives no other reason , for there is no advantage to Britain on Turkey's EU membership except their workforce.
The Blair/Brown regime betrayed the working classes, preferring to import workers abroad rather than spend money on training and childcare.
Mr Balls was a senior member of the Greek chorus urging them on.
Show him the door."
"_AT_balls
As usual obfuscating spin and garbage.
However, if you were wrong, you are responsible............if you are responsible then you should be accountable.......if you are accountable your incompetence disqualifies you from any further position in public life.
By accident or design - and I think it was by design - your policies have had a massively adverse effect on British society - time for you to toddle off into obscurity."
you've just lost my vote
This article gives demagoguery a bad name.
you've just lost my vote
"_AT_bradgate

You clearly have no idea what a fact is."
Who elected you to that job?
So populist it would make Hugo Chavez and Vice Cable blush.
"..........
His geography is good."
Well, blimey, Griffin is writing under a pseudonym.
"tinlaurelledandhardy

Exactly."
"Solidarity with my brother and sister workers from Europe!
Labour doesn't need Balls, it needs Brains."
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"_AT_annedemontmorency

Geographically, Europe has never had any agreed boundaries. If you want to say Europe is by definition not Muslim, go ahead - that's one opinion, but let's not pretend it is some kind of fact."
Orkney ,having been invited to a cracking piss up at the Poles house off our site i can only agree ,ref Polish girls
"But you forgot to get them to clean up their act enough to get their accounts signed off didnt you ed. oops.
'at the heart of europe'
yeah. right."
"_AT_annedemontmorency
you are so funny. europe is a socio-political construct. it doesnt exist. its whatever you want it to be.
turkey has far more in common with austria-hungary and germany than we do with greece (apart from phil the greek of course).
sorry, its not simple. but i tried to make it simple for you."
"_AT_Danut

In my sad experience of once working for a 'Labour' local authority that is the majority of them.
But they wouldn't come out and admit ot of course."
"Just an observation: it appears, at least on the surface, that the countries that have the highest debt to gdp ratios are the ones in the most economic trouble and the ones with the least are doing the best. At least, that's the way it looks at a glance.
I wonder if those countries in financial difficulty, had they spent less money, be less in debt? If overspending got one into trouble, how can doing the same produce the opposite result? The government is not some sacred cow. It's not blasphemy or mean spirited to curb the appetite of the government.
Look at it this way. You are taxed for, among other things, what you produce, what you expend, and anything else they can think of. Every time they collect a tax from you, that is a direct deduction of your options in life. Have you ever heard a bureaucrat say something along the lines of, ""We can't impose a tax increase, how are the Stevensons going to pay for Mary Lou's college expenses?"" Have you ever heard a politician address the reality of taxation, ""you earned it, now we're going to take whatever we want and you'd be best advised to give it up and keep your mouth shut about it.""
There is no such thing as public spending. All spending is private spending. Either the individual who earned the money, spends it. Or, the individual who earned the money has it strongarmed off of him by the government, and then the government spends the the individual's money for him. In either case, the taxable surplus was created by the skill, talent, and dedication of the earner. The government has no inherent right to anything."
Well, the man while in power talked his talk for the power' sake and now he does that for the sake of getting it back. There is very specific word for that but I don't want to get moderated :)
"Labour obviously needs some time out of power if Ed Balls, shadow children and education secretary, is writing this kind of guff as he competes for the party leadership.
Blair's labour government worked real hard to make London into a plush home for rich foreigners who did more damage to Britain and its economy than a few hard working Eastern Europeans."
"As an ex-Labour Party member, I didn't believe what Nu Labour said when in power and I don't believe any of them now. They're bad history as far as I'm concerned.
Viva el coalition!"
"If ever there was a case of shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted -- or rather in this case the stable had got a tad overcrowded.
All the open door policy did was crowd out the labor market and drive wage rates downwards. But that's basic economics, anyone could have told you that increasing the supply with demand flat will drive down the price. Good for short term profit, especially as the imported labor comes with no cost to the people using those skills and they can conveniently pass the cost of the people they're displacing onto the taxpayer."
"Britain is a very exposed country with great deal of protection for people in duly harsh circumstances. These mechanisms were never designed for free inflow of well, let's not be two faced, poor people from countries where their lives are of no or little consequence.
The illusion is that the trouble is the lack of sufficient funding.
This illusion is really hard to break through but it is nevertheless and illusion. And it may not be a healthy one to follow on with anything like policy making."
"You and Labour will not be part of the decision making process, so why should we care what you think?

Who too?

What exactly does this mean? You don't say/

So what you are saying is that your actions have disadvantaged one of the poorest and economically weakest sections of society.
So what you are not saying is that your refusal to set interim limits, (as many other European Counties did,) made the situation worse.
All you are doing is reinforcing the point that you are a stupid inept politician and not fit to represent anyone, much less lead a major british political party.
Thanks for clearing that up."
"Hmm interesting its east european migrants which are viewed as the problem.
So I guess the obvious signs of islamification should be ignored then?"
"if they come here to WORK IE a doctor,dentist.brickie then i dont see the problem BUT there should be an agreement box on there application for a visa/uk passport that says they must abide by our customs and traditions
all these imigrants who dont work sponge off the state then throw a hissy fit for changes in uk law to benefit there own Beliefs and customs should be shown the door lie-bour failed to stem the problem lets hop the new boys can"
"Ed Balls; What a racist title, and no information in your poorly written article to back up it's title. How did you get to where you are? Not by intelligence that's for sure. If you were to do your statistics, you would find an overwhelming number of ""British"" people are taxing the system here in this country. Not any ""Eastern Europeans"" which are not only highly skilled but hard working .
GJP46"
"eastlands
so true
One, it is central europe and there is more diversity here than in western Europe.
Populist stuff where a leading politician brackets the whole region as homogenous"
"Presumably most of those calling Ed Balls a racist and a bigot also believe Labour leadership candidates should listen to the members/voters more? I assume by ""listening"" they mean only to opinions they themselves agree with and returning to real socialism, whatever that is.
There's a lot of concern about immigration out there - discussing extending the restriction on Romain and Bulgaria is hardly the same as advocating repatriation for non-whites."
"Oh yeah, and I should also say that the title of your article is not only a lie but the Guardian, is irresponsible for allowing this article to be uploaded as it only helps to stir the racist element in this society...........or maybe that's what you really wanted.
GJP46"
Mr Balls, you are wrong about restricting movement of workers in the EU. Low wages are a fall out from globalisation and capital's desire to seek the cheapest worker. The UK has plenty of unscrupulous managers who do not give a toss about 'British workers': the answer? Up the minimum wage until it no longer becomes possible to trade workers. In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do? Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing. Reform labour and employment laws, raise the minimum wage and allow free movement of labour. Don't play the BNP's game for them. And while you're at it, get building some houses and stop people profiting from buy to let. Labour should have tackled all these things years ago but didn't have the intellect or courage to tackle them.
You didn't have to restrict immigration from the EU - all you had to do was set the minimum wage for all workers at a living level, and legislate improvements in the terms of employment for all workers (other EU countries seem to manage it), and then employers wouldn't have been falling over themselves to employ Lithuanians living in garden sheds and working on temporary contracts which get renewed again and again, year after year.
"""A load of balls"" still what would one expect.
Nudelabour brought in the minimum wage but then failed to enforce it. and in any case set it very low. Nudelabour failed to push people back into work and with the min wage so low - why would they go?
One example: drive out of Leominister _AT_ 0600hrs any morning and watch the long lines of east euros trudging to their fruit and veggie picking jobs so Joe average can have cheap fruit and veggies (30% of which he wastes - well they are cheap so why worry?).
There is a systemic failure here and Balls is one of the guys responsible. Unfit to clean the toilets in my view - let alone a political party - throw him out of labour - let him form his own party - he is not and never has been a socliaist."
"'We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain'
But Ed, you were there when it was all discussed, agreed and implemented. And if you were there again in future, it would carry on again. We all know that it is what the Left want, why, the Labour peer Lord Giddens indicated that it must 'go on' (see 'Over to You, Gordon', published only 3 years ago). In fact the 'melting pot' philosophy has been and remains one of the Left's central tenets: that true internationalism can only be achieved by breaking down the 'barriers' of race and culture upon which nation states exist.
So please no more hand-wringing over what what a full-blown design feature of Labour's 13 years in office. Why do you not honestly state your intention, which has always been to remove the racial basis of the UK, and Englishness in particular. Do you not wish to move towards one of the Left's implicit ideals (that still can be heard in any left-leaning student debate), namely 'towards one world government?'
But let me tell you, a world without such racial and cultural differences would be a poorer place."
The Poles are actually more workshy than the British. Unemployment is far higher in Poland than Britain, and it's not like there isn't the work there. There are Ukrainians and Belarussians doing the jobs that the Poles don't want to take.
Persoanlly I'd have liked to have seen more Polish people come to the UK, and I'm sorry that some of them are going back. The UK is better off with them than without them. It is other groups we need to be careful about. The ones who burn the flag and get aggressive and hate the country.
"So its simple then, Ed. The UK will continue to (try to) keep wages and costs higher than eastern europe and at the same time remain competitive.
That way you've got a lingering recession until things get so bad that english workers are actually emigrating to work in Poland - it should take about 12 to 15 years at the most.
Then all the immigrants you're worried about will be gone and you'll have no-one to scapegoat. Then your touchy-feely enoch powell fellow travellers in Nu Labour might need to come up with some real economic policy - like creating sustainable and competitive industry. Except Labour doesn't do sustainable or competitive industry. If Labour can't moan against the bosses, the bankers, the toffs, the immigrants, the tories, the liberals, or anyone else who doesn't carry a union card, then it's got nothing to say."
There -- fixed that for you.
"I am sorry Ed but you can't have the first two (you forgot free movement of capital) without the last, to do otherwise is to carve up the market for the benefit of business and allow business to play different countries off against each other. This is precisely why the EU was set up with the four basic freedoms in the first place.
The question is whether the EU should have been expanded into the former Eastern block in the first place. My opinion has always been no, and I think I have been proved right by events. By all means the Eastern block should have been given preferential trading status with the EU along with help and assistance to allow them to get their economies into shape before joining the EU, but to let them in while they were still economically very weak and unable to hold their own was folly of the first order.
The problem with the EU is not the EU, but the short-sighted, nationalistic, doing-the-best-for-my-country (and the vested interests within it) Member States of the EU, of which the UK is probably one of the most blatant and notorious example.
The point of the EU is that the nations of Europe work together for the common benefit of all, not be in it for what you can screw out of it, but then since 'be in it for what you can screw out of it' has been the whole 'Anglo Saxon' modus operandi of the UK economy at all levels for the past thirty years it hardly surprising they don't understand anything else, consequently the role and purpose of EU is actually a complete mystery to the majority of UK politicians (and population for that matter).
The EU is a modern 'tragedy of the commons'.
The question for me is not whether or not we decide to stay in the EU but rather how long the EU is going to put up with its Chavvy neighbour."
"How long has this man been out of office??
His hypocrisy would be absolutely breathtaking if one didn't undrstand that personal ambition is his single goal - whatever the cost to everybody else!"
As Clement Attlee is reputed to have said: A bit late isn't it?
"Amazing that you can be in power for more than a decade and only realise that after you're out of power.

Wrong, Balls, they should be pushing to protect the pay, terms and conditions of all workers. Protecting the pay, terms and conditions only of British workers will make the low-pay, unprotected workers of Poland and the Baltic states more attractive for rapacious employers.
But that was all part of the plan, wasn't it?"
Perhaps the eastern Europeans can let us move to their countries... Yeah like theyd let us move in on their turf!
They let me move there.
"Snapshackle:

They'll put up with us for as long as we're paying a huge part of their bloated budget. You just know they're looking for more money from us by getting rid of our rebate as well. They won't kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
Anyway, this is too little too late. It's no good saying your wrong now. I won't forget the damage the labour party has done to this country and I'll certainly never forgive it. I'm not the only one either."
"A couple of other things I forgot. This sentence:

is a gross over-estimation of how important Britain is on the world stage. Also, the idea of allowing Turkey into the EU is cretinous."
"So it's true then, Ed.
They are taking our jobs and driving down wages.
Why didn't you say this before?"
"13 years 1 month too late.
And I say that as the husband of an immigrant from outside the EU. We had to go through almost a year of marriage-threatening hell just to get her into the country, despite her having a job offer here, speaking English, and my being able to support her financially. All in the name of ensuring the 'wrong' sort didn't get in.
Meanwhile several million Europeans who didn't have jobs, didn't necessarily speak English, and didn't have any money were able to get in with barely a glance at their passport at the gate."
"TheGreatCucumber
6 Jun 2010, 8:20AM

Er, except our contribution is not that important, and if we leave so do any costs associated with us.

1. Where did I say I was a Labour supporter?
2. Labour has done no more than continue Tory policies, so it is the fault of the ideology, not the party since both administrations pursued essentially then same agenda."
No you weren't - but you were wrong not to defend immigration properly. Same old New Labour telling the people what you think they want to hear. You don't care where you get your support from do you? Now is the time to stop pandering to the right wing, zenophobic, and ignorant - it lost you the last election and it will lose you the next.
"Snapshackle:

1. That was aimed at what Ed Balls said. Sorry, should have clarified that.
2. I'm no fan of the Tories either."
PeakoilPete - they let my sister move there and she doesn't want to come back.
"zavaell:
'In any event, who will do the jobs the EU migrants did/still do?'
Me, for one. Ready, willing and able.
Nine months of applications for cleaning, catering, retail, office and care work have resulted in about 2 interviews.
Ready to drop the voluntary job and paper round at a moment's notice."
"qwertboi - The last Greek prime minister - Costas Karamanlis openly supported Turkish accession to the EU.
Greece has birthrate problems and is hardly dynamic - there is a very different picture on the other side of the Aegean. Culturally the Greeks and Turks are a lot closer than the Greeks like to pretend.
And what's this nonsense about IT being highly dependent on immigrants?
The scandal was that this myth was around even before 2000 - when South Africans were freely allowed to work in IT in the UK, while Brits could not get a work permit in SA to do anything.
The job market in IT has collapsed due to outsourcing to Asia, and the myth of ""shortages"" is put about my IT employers' asociations and lobbyists to ensure a plentiful supply of cheap IT labour. UK programmers were affected adversely by the UK IT ""open door"" to the world policy just as much as brickies were affected by EU immigration. UK IT staff are not unionised, have no lobby and still suffer due to the propagation of the ""shortage"" myth by employers. (Same in Germany)
Ageism and overmuch competition in my IT speciality - much of it due to Agency sponsored non-EU immigrants, caused me to leave the UK and work in Germany.
The author points out that that restrictions on the influx of EU unskilled labour will soon be lifted in France and Germany. That will have a huge effect on the UK in that both countries are far more attractive for Eastern European EU immigrants workers. There are Germans who are predicting major changes in Berlin (as one example) where Polish (etc.) immigration will be sorely needed due to the increasing dearth of young people. The Polish border is only 50 miles from Berlin.
Also Germany is on the verge of having labour shortages due to the aging population/declining birthrate (No. 3 in the declining population ranking) - already unemployment is at its lowest for years and there is an upcoming crisis in the medical/care sector due to staff shortages.
And what is this implied success of the UK economy in coming quickly out of recession? France and Germany were far earlier."
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We should not be confusing the need to improve the rights of the low paid in this country with allowing others to come and live in the UK. The minimum wage and rights for agency and contract workers is the way to deal with this.
"Ed,
I have always thought you to be an odious little man - and this article just adds weight to my opinion of you.
What a cheap and nasty tactic you have adopted to score anti-immigration points by berating Polish immigrants who are generally hard-working, law-abiding and work hard to integrate.
What a low, underhand way to appear 'hard' in immigration but avoiding any criticism of any non-white group - and thus trying to avoid being called a racist.
You really are a pathetic man.
No mention at all of the problems caused by the Islamist wave of immigration in the UK - none at all. Islamic immigrants do not integrate, do not respect the culture of the UK and do not participate at a high level in the economy.
Yet not a mention from you.
Disgusting. I think the cheaper-than-cheap, turn-coat, unprincipled 'leadership' campaign you are running is showing you up in an even poorer light than before - and believe me, that would have taken some doing."
">>We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain
Bit late now Ed.
Everyone told you what would happen and as with everything else you 'ballsed up' you wouldn't listen even to your expert advisers on health.
""Nanny Knows best"" was how New Labour ruled. Nanny most certainly didn't."
"If you had admitted theses errors while in power and able to influence matters you may have won some respect but to wait till its too late and wring your hands from the sideline is pathetic.
You will never be Labor leader.
You will never be PM."
"Ed is lying of course. Basically if do something immoral for 10 years, then I think it is right. That the Labour party allowed unfettered immigration for 13 tells me the believe that is right.
How often have you had met someone who constantly does the wrong thing but assures each time that they have learned their lesson? You know they haven't because deep down they believe that the wrong thing is the right thing.
Next Labour government would equal more unlimited immigration as Labour understands this is in their long term self interest.
By the way - those of you who call immigration controls racist are beyond contempt. You are the racists and in particular you have a racist world view which sees people from poorer countries as tools to achieve your policy goals.
I have always thought it laughable that a so called 'anti capitalist' left winger is so committed to allowing people to come and work here for burger king."
"_AT_article

I can assure you there are plenty of folk born and bred in the country who can fill these post in the NHS and IT industries. The problem is that they were not allowed into these industries because they were undercut by immigrants. It is an insult to the intelligence of any normal person to think otherwise."
"Ahh the Right-wing reflex from the Labour ministers.
Yawn"
You were neoliberal stooges, the book Broonland carves you up. Now you think you are throwing a bone to the gormless proles over immigration. If you don't do better than this you'll never be back. How about giving some thought about how the markets are ruling us and how to counteract it. Of course that might deviate from neo-classical endogenous growth theory. Jesus is this all we've got. ?
I can't stand these fools who think that because an immigrant is White, he won't cause any problem.
"OMG - YES - he has got it - at last!
Take care of the people already here and STOP letting more and more and more in.
But is he just saying it to get what he wants - after all the Labour party wanted to rub the noses of the middle classes in multiculturalism - has that changed?"
Thank you for a clear and well-written article, Mr Balls. I understand your lines of argument, but can't bring myself to agree with them.As the decendent of 'economic migrants' during the attempted genocide of the Irish 'famine', I think that Britain should be Great enough to have a place for those willing to work for their living and their family's betterment.
"Balls clearly has never asked himself why communities, like the one he 'represents', are ""ill prepared to deal with globalisation"".
First off, no one ever told them about globalisation, it descended on them from on high without a by-your-leave, and they were expected to get on with it.
Second, if we have to have globalisation, we need an education system that's geared to turning out a highly skilled workforce able to compete with the Far East.
No sign of that, is there, Ed?
Instead we've had high unemployment amongst young people since before eternal boom turned to old fashioned bust.
Could that be anything to do with micro-managing education from Whitehall, Ed?
One further point, Ed.
You can't have the bits of globalisation you like - cheapo clothes from the Far East, iPads, etc - without the bits you don't like: a global labour market, widening inequality, and reduced welfare spending.
Get real, matey."
Obviously mass immigration on this scale was wrong. It was wrong because there was no effort whatsoever to expand an already overstretched infrastructure to cope with it. It's a very simple equation. Why couldn't you see that ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
"Big business wanted cheap labour, the government of the day, of which Mr Balls was a significant figure, delivered what big business wanted - as usual.
I don't believe that this particular leopard can change his shorts."
Isn't it amazing how an electoral "slap upside the head" can knock some sense into it. That's what happened isn't it, Ed? You wouldn't just be saying whatever you think is necessary to get all those C2 voters back, would you?
"p.s.
...new points system, with strong controls on unskilled migration, alongside new citizenship requirements.
Seems quite fascistic to me to differentiate in this way. What right have you got to 'brain drain' these countries so you're own country is economically advantaged? This policy is a kind of distant cousin to ethnic cleansing."
'[H]ard-headed'; 'big choices'; 'stark differences'; 'challenge'; 'doomed'; 'staggered'; 'do not believe for a moment'; 'strong controls'; 'difficult times'; 'hard-headed'; History has proved'; 'fight tooth and nail'; 'a powerful driver'; 'wake up'; 'challenge'; 'direct impact'; 'the heart of'; 'rebuild trust'; 'no doubt that'; 'true that'; 'a great job'; 'hard-headed'; 'seal the borders'; 'innovation'; 'another matter entirely'; 'the reality of'; 'it is important we are honest about what we got wrong'; 'not good enough'.
"This simply means they're white, and acceptable.

This refers to those who are not white, and aren't, but kepler doesn't have the balls to say it. It's the highest recommended comment so far, it's racist to the core, and I'm sure a number of BNP supporters are amongst those that approve. There you go, Ed, there's your vote bank."
"_AT_PaulLambert (6 Jun 2010, 1:13AM)

My sentiments exactly."
"Below is a statement from the Optimum Population Trust published in October 2009:
The figures, published by the Office for National Statistics, show the UK population growing by over four million to 65.6 million by 2018, passing 70 million two decades from now (2029) and reaching nearly 86 million by the end of the projection period – 2083 – when growth will still be running at over a quarter of a million a year. The ONS says just over two-thirds of the projected increase over the next quarter century is either directly or indirectly due to migration. Commenting on the projections, Roger Martin, chair of OPT, said: “These figures are very worrying and demonstrate that, whatever some government ministers say about not letting the UK’s population rise beyond 70 million, the reality is very different. In that sense Britain’s population increase is out of control and we are on course for a high-density, low-quality future where overcrowding and congestion are the norm and resource shortages, particularly of vital commodities like water and energy, are ever more pressing. Every addition to the population pushes this country further from sustainability and nearer to a position of extreme environmental precariousness.
It’s no use shouting “racist” whenever someone suggests that immigration should be restricted. It is very childish and extremely boring, and if you believe it then you must also think that David Attenborough and Jonathon Porritt, both patrons of the OPT, are racist too. The UK is the most densely populated country in Europe and the second most densely populated country in the world. If reliant solely on its own resources, it could sustain a population of only 20 million people. It is clearly absurd to continue to allow current levels of immigration, especially when we have structural unemployment of 4 million plus and the incomes of the poorest pushed down even further by immigrants competing for jobs."
"Well - is it not true that once you end the transitional controls then free movement is inevitable.
However there are still many things that Labour could have done in order to lessen the impact of immigration from the new EU states:
1. Coordinate with other major EU economies (France, Germany, Spain etc.) to end transitional controls at the same time so that impact would be spread over a great area.
2. Reduce or better control other routes of immigration e.g. student visas in response to the end of transitional controls on new EU controls.
3. Reduce tax on the lower wage salaries thus encourage more people off benefits to work."
"Too late, Ed. How you expect anyone to believe a word you say any more is beyond my grasp.
However, I am a huge supporter of your campaign to lead the Labour Party. Into the desert for generations.
Go, Ed, Go!!!!!"
Is he ? Surely this ministry has been abolished ?
Finally, if you'd have admitted these massive mistakes to the nation while in government you'd have had to resign. However, you're now in opposition, but you seem to think you should be able to stand as leader. Surely some contradiction here. In fact you're a FAILED POLITICIAN who's done serious damage to the country and therefore the honourable thing to do would be to LEAVE POLITICS! You're not allowed to plead forgiveness or ignorance, the country needs leaders who know what they are doing, you've proved you don't.
"Another tired article from a tired party that hasn't got the guts to admit that the reason they were ejected was the economy and the utter mess they made of it.
Well I'm anti-Euro, but I have no doubt that if we had entered, our European partners would have run our economy better than you did, increasing public expenditure by 50% to what effect? More overpaid quangocrat and housing association mates of yours? I mean how can a Housing Association chief earn nearly 400k pa? Under Brown-Balls he can.
And just why did we stay out of the Euro? Economic reasons, Ideological reasons? Or am I alone in thinking that it was just that Brown couldn't countenance giving up power so hard obtained?
Then you go on to apologise for EU immigration, whereas you know full well that Polish plumbers is a small problem relative to immigration from Pakistan, Bangladesh Nigeria etc.
.
I shall be delighted if by mistake Labour selects you to be its leader, as the reminder of Brown will be enough to ensure that your kind of self-interested house-flipping ""socialism"" is kept out of power for ever.
You are a disgrace to what was once a great party with an ideological core and a just cause."
"ArikSilvermen

To settle in a foreign country, NO to a proficiency test.
But to work there, YES.
This is in fact what happens in many countries - for decent working-class jobs.
For instance, you wouldn't get a job as a postal worker, ambulance driver, dustman - or any council state sector worker - (and loads of other jobs) without first passing a written and difficult exam in both Spanish and Catalan.
Even someone from Madrid wouldn't be able to pass the Catalan exam without months or even years of study.
That's how other countries protect their local workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!)
But over here we make allowances."
"Correction to previous post:
""You wouldn't get a decent working-class job IN BARCELONA as..."""
"Really?
Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal."
Ed Balls is simply a New Labour hypocrite. Quite why the media give this individual who lacks intelligence or indeed integrity is a mystery. I live in his constituency and would be delighted if he found the time to dealing with correspondence instead of indilging in self-promotion.
"So, Ed, whilat you are displaying your penitence, what are your thoughts on this statement by the PM?

Hint. ""So what"" is NOT the answer."
Mr Balls, as a member of the Labour Party, let me say you are very wrong about this and I hope the party rejects this counter-productive urge to blame our travails on immigration. I'll vote for whichever candidate follows the most liberal line on immigration.
"_AT_mannin 6 Jun 2010, 9:44AM

Quite so. Sadly they didn't manage to abolish Balls at the same time.
By the way, kids, do you know which two MPs came up with the house flipping scam which has so enriched Mr. & Mrs. Balls?
Step forward, Gordon Brown and Ed Balls. Men of the people to their very bone marrow."
"So tell me Balls why it is that my mate's son, an IT graduate from 2008 cannot find any suitable employment and is now unemployed and on anti-depressants?
You tell me, and I'll tell him"
"How depressing, this is soulsearching by the souless.
Like a one clubbed golfer, all the triangulators can do is that one thing. Over and over again. Bravely following from the front.
Hope they never get close to power again."
"If the jobs were here why wern't they filled with our fit, hard working men and women? Was it that the benfits on offer outshone working for a living.
What of illegal immigrants. As their title implies, they are ILLEGAL. So why are so many thousands still here and who is paying for their keep, whilst, due to costs, denying the life saving cancer drugs tor the sick or real care for the elderly.
None of these issues you faced in office and fudge yet again now. You have chosen instead the easy option of saying you were wrong over Eastern European immigration. It's the peoples from the rest of the world, who are not part of the EU that we are concerned about."
"WeAreTheWorld
6 Jun 2010, 1:34AM
Me too. And that other New Labour pumpkin head Blair has been championing their admission to the EU for two decades. If nothing else, the Greeks will see that never happens."
Is it because our IT school and higher education is crap and Indian computer science education is better ? I don't know; just asking. My daughter studied IT at secondary school for 5 years and learned only to make a sandwich menu on a Word document and to price it on a simple spreadsheet. I have seen the IT they do in Chinese secondary schools and believe me it's not like that. It's programming and code.
"there is no problem with eastern Europeans, the more the merrier. We should be grateful they wanted to come here at all, to work in demeaning jobs for low wages. Have you ever been to East Europe, Balls? Poland for one is much much nicer than Britain. But we had jobs that needed filling and they came. They didn't take the jobs from the British, they took jobs that were not being filled.
The real problem of immigration is in the vast ethnic ghettos of insularity and despair. I should know I live in one - Hackney - where every few days it seems a black kid is shot and the ""community"" shrugs it off."
"Aren't they a laugh these Labour folks? Here's Ed' fellow contestant, Diane Abbott

Some 92 years AFTER the Tories, who elected an Asian as the MP for Bethnal Green North East in 1895.
We're still, of course, waiting for a female Labour leader, never mind Prime Minister.
No, not you, Harriet. Fegedabahtit."
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with

. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
"mannin _AT_ 6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM

Possibly for young adults coming out of New Labours dumbed down degrees but these Indian and Chinese students are competing with older individuals with years of experience. Maybe it might have less to do with the knowledge of these immigrants and more to do with hope cheap they cost to employ?"
More pathetic grovelling why are you not on remand awaiting trial for treason ?
"mannin
6 Jun 2010, 10:06AM


As an IT Consultant and Expert working for a large Financial Firm, I can confirm that large powerful financial firms have spun the need for Foreign IT Staff just because it is cheaper. I see a large Indian IT staff when a few years back that would not have been the case. Or course stupid Politicians believe them despite the fact it leaves British IT graduates without a route into the profession. It is very very sad......
These guys are not doing anything that a British Graduate or trained and experienced guy could not do.
PS. There is a difference between High School IT and the IT professionals by the way...."
Sorry, Ed. Anyone who has screwed up the country's demographics to the extent that you, by your own woffle-smothered admission, have done - never mind gravely messing up its education system - is not fit to be in government, let alone leader of a (once) major party.
"ChrisBaldwin

Some 80% of EE migrants work for minimum wage. They were brought in specifically to keep wages down - as Sir Digby Jones put it a few years ago ""immigrants are doing the work for less"" - later of course he became a Minister in the ""Labour"" gov't. Of course during the years 2004-2007 we had a lot of spurious economic growth based on financial bullshxt which Broon was pleased to characterise as ""no more boom and bust""(wonder how he's doing in his secure unit in Fife btw).
Now of course we face a total crisis of employment - and of housing; the employment situation is of course bound to deteriorate even further with savage public spending cuts an inevitability - the IFS calculated that on the basis of Broon-Darling's dubious figures there would be 25% cuts in non-ring-fenced dept's.
All this the Duffy's and the NEET's need like a hole in the head. They are competing with much better qualified people from abroad very largely for minimum wage jobs where minimal or zero qualifications are required; and in the context of employment falling off a cliff.
When the Labour Party was the Labour Party Mrs Duffy was a priority concern; not a ""bigot"" to be sheered at behind her back.
Having said that of course Balls' article is an odious piece of expediency"
"No, they are entirely completely tied together. Do you think the USA would have grown to be the biggest economy on the planet if people from Illinois were banned from moving to California?
What a moron. I thought Balls was supposed to be an expert on economic matters.

SO it's OK for us to take highly paid jobs off Europeans, but not for them to come here to pick potatoes for the minimum wage? I think you are running for the leadership of the wrong party. Your concern for wages in the poorer parts of Europe is disingenuous - it is these genuinely poor people who benefit the most from being able to travel to find work, but they wont be voting for the new leader of the labour party, so f*** 'em.

So you think that people in countries who have run their finances competently should be forced to bale out those who haven't? I can see why you would believe this, but it is balls."
I am dismayed by the conflation of racism (yet again) and immigration. Are there problems with immigration? Perhaps but asking the question does not make you racist or right wing. Does the article not acknowledge the unease that an increasing number of people have about immigration? I also feel that we need clear data to answer questions around immigration. We also need to depart from the old dialectic about immigration and party politics. I applaud any attempt to engender discussion in this area.
Thus begins Labour's desperate attempt to win back the British workers it betrayed over the past 13 years and the British sovereignty it gifted to the New European Empire; the most polite response must be go away Balls and the rest of your dishonourable colleagues. We want our country back.
"nottydave seems to have it right.
The problem is not immigrants but that workers are not sufficiently protected against wage undercutting. If you're a Pole, prepared to live in a rented room in squalid accommodation with five other Poles, then you can afford to work for less (and send money home or save) than the family man or woman who has to keep up a more expensive household. If employment law ensured that all work was capable of providing a living wage for people committed to raising a family in Britain, then British and Polish workers would be able to compete fairly. That would be the left-wing answer to the problem.
Another problem is how to respond to the likelihood of people coming from countries who are unlikely to be able to find work in Britain and who are not (as is the case with the Poles) eligible for welfare but for whom being dirt poor in Britain might be preferable to be being dirt poor in Romania or Bulgaria. A little noticed problem are those Poles etc holed-up in squats drinking or snorting or injecting themselves to an early grave, who reject charitable attempts to get them home and over whom the state has no responsibility except in criminal justice terms."
Yes I know. But should bright 16 years olds studying IT at secondary school still be doing cafe/sandwich menus on Word ? Is is good preparation for computer science advanced and degree level studies ? Shouldn't code and computer languages and programming be taught much much earlier, as in China, Thailand, India ? Just asking.
"Just to add:
It is also amazing how people's logic on this, especially on the Left, becomes so twisted. Many do not realise that the NHS importing Doctors and Nurses from developing nations may be denying these countries of valuable health care resources. If I bothered to analyse COINs I would no doubt find some white-European health Care consultants (i.e. Doctors and Nurses rebranded as Consultants) working in India, South Africa, and other developing countries on super high Consultancy packages (flights, hotels, food and wages).
So we may be in the position that we import Doctors and Nurses from them on the cheaper and then we pay in the Foriegn Aid budget for expenses health care consultants to assist them in health care!!!!!
But I suppose if I do not believe 100% all and any immigration is good then I must be a racist....
Stanford - proud to be a racist."
"TomHarrison

Rubbish. They were not ""brought in"" - they chose to come here because they could make a better living. That is what intelligent people do. Rather than sitting on their arses and demanding the government give them money, which appears to be the Labour way."
"I'm glad I'd already decided not to vote for Ed Balls in the leadership election (not that it was an especially hard decision). This facile, cretinous, half witted argument, that migrant workers are to blame for employers slashing wages and terms and conditions, sums up much of what is wrong with Balls.
Employers are to blame for cutting wages and terms and conditions Ed, not workers. Employers don't do it because they have to; like dogs licking their own privates, they do it because they can. Faced with a choice between cutting wages so they can give more back to shareholders, and paying staff a living wage, employers will always choose the former. That's why the state has to intervene. It's not complicated. What's more, the burden of lower wages and worse terms and conditions isn't borne by individual workers, it's borne by every taxpayer as government has to intervene in more and more complex ways to keep families out of poverty or to prevent the immiserization of whole sections of the unskilled poor.
It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.
In those circumstances, writing a cretinous article straight out of the BNP handbook on how blame foreigners for everything should disqualify Ed Balls from ever holding office in the Labour Party gain."
"This despicable man has spent the last thirteen years lining his own pockets at the public expense while threatening all rivals, and bankrupting our country at the same time.
The man who manipulated a frighteningly disturbed Prime Minister into leading the most damaging regime for at least one hundred years.
Surely an appropriate leader of the terminally discredited Labour party.
In my view, it is beyond shame still to provide Balls with a platform.."
".
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48d26910-4798-11df-a4a6-00144feab49a.html
Balls shouldn't be touched with a barge pole; he was Broon's de-regulatory bag-carrier from way back. Pathetic excuses as per usual. If a gov't can't resist ""huge pressure"" from the media and the City, if they have no power, they why should anyone vote for them? As for being unable to resist the Tories Nulab had 3 figure majorities so how dismal an excuse is that? But of course what Balls says is utterly disingenuous; they actively sought an alliance with the City(prawn cocktail offensive and onwards)"
There is nothing right-wing, never mind 'hysterical' about opposing the undemocratic and expansionist so-called 'European Union'. You would if if you supported democracy and the rights of working-class people.
"While Mr Balls may have many deficiencies (particularly moral), he aint stupid and you can see the obvious line of attack against the coalition.
We allow anyone based on their skills not their creed while you specifically target non-eu (and in the minds of voters) non white immigrants.
To be blunt while race is an issue for some in reality the main problem with much immigration is not racial or economic but cultural, we accept cultures who do not value our own culture. And rather than encouraging them to integrate to become British and enable us to learn something from their culture we allow the segregation of our communities on cultural lines with no discernible benefit. There is in some forms of immigration an irreconcilable clash of cultures
The underlying problem for the west is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people who are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. The problem for Islam is not the CIA or the US department of defence. It is the west.
Samuel Huntington 1995!"
She also seems to have forgotten about Shapurji Saklatvala, elected as Communist MP for Battersea North in 1922, and Dadabhai Naoroji, elected as the Liberal MP for Finsbury Central in 1892.
"But Labour introuduced the minimum wage Ed so how could immigrants from the eastern European parts of the EU have had an impact on wages?
And are you saying that Poles, Lithuanians and Hungarians are less in employment legislation protection than Brits so industries employing them were able to 'empoly a light touch' as the saying goes? Surely not?"
"This is the real betrayal of british workers perpetrated by the Labour government - not immigration. In the modern world they are in competition with eastern europeans, indians and chinese, whether they like it or not. Banning immigration will not protect them, the jobs will just go abroad.
We have to compete, and we could, except Ed Balls and his colleagues have spent the last decade dumbing down our education system. I feel sorry for the generation who went through the education system under his government - they are well and truly screwed. Having gone throught school in the 80's and 90's - the era of supposed 'tory cuts' - at least I had the benefit of learning maths and sciences."
"""The government in which I was a cabinet minister and major league policy wonk made incompetent, unpopular and unnecessary decisions. Now please make me party leader"".
Mind if I get back to you on that one, Ed?"
"Dogstarscribe
`It's time for people like Balls to face the truth. Every dividend paid now from the proceeds of ending final salary pension schemes is a pension payment the state will have to make in the future to people who will be worse off than they otherwise would be. Every badly paid worker who doesn't bring home enough money to feed his or her family is a tax on all of us as we pay for the excess profits the employer gleefully banks.'
This is factually correct argument as far as the appalling damage to the economy perpetrated by Balls and Brown from the destruction of final,salary schemes.
The point about employers being `gleeful' at the loss of defined benefit schemes is simply wrong since providing such schemes was always a major factor in attracting the best applicants and demonstrated the high quality of such employers. employers always had a choice as to whether or not they offered a final salary scheme.
They do not any more c/o Brown, Balls and Cooper.
Shame on them for the terrible damage they have inflicted while personally enjoying the benefits of the best pension scheme in the country.
I read recently that the Balls family baked in excess of £500k last year. a poster above says that he found it difficult to decide whether or not to vote for Balls as leader.
What does this say?
g"
"I'd like to be controversial here and maybe ask people to rethink their mindset. I know we think that (we in) the UK are still the best thing since sliced bread but, aside from improving your English, is there really a good reason for all this unskilled labour to drift to the UK?
The pound you earn is (and in many cases it may even be only a pound thanks to agencies and gangmasters) is worth ever less when you send it back home, it's expensive, you are at the mercy of a bent buy-to-let sector that will charge you a fortune to live in a hovel, public transport is expensive, it's a quasi surveillance state worse than the one that your parents used to live in, the people seem to be getting more and more racist and xenophobic by the hour etcx etc etc. Moreover, if you believe the police and security bods a terrorist attack is iminent 24/7. I just can't quite believe that there are herds of people queueing to get in. Really."
`Banked' - sorry
I'll explain. The minimum wage was pitched very low, most factory workers received more than the minimum wage because competition amongst employers for workers drove wage levels up. But when all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of workers from low-wage states entered the country, there was an abundance of labour supply, so average wages dropped down nearer to the minimum wage.
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
"Lemmywinks

Allowed to come in then. The head of the CBI(the then Sir Fatso Digby Jones) said that ""immigrants are doing the work for less""(quoted in Elliot's Fantasy Island). So obviously there were losers - ie Labour's traditional constituency, which is why Balls has written his canting piece.
His well-padded Lordship Jones did a TV programme about ""Neets"" in Swindon, he was lecturing and patronising the lads in his best style. There didn't appear to be anything much wrong with them, save a lack of opportunity. Anyway Jones was ""motivating"" the young unemployed in what was apparently the former British Rail engineering workshops, now derelict. The irony of this appeared to escape him - as indeed it always escapes chancers like him and Balls"
"Ed,
if you had ACTED when your government's claim that 13,000 workers would come to the UK from Eastern Europe proved laughably inaccurate, and turned into an outcome of over one million, then you might have a slim chance to be believed.
You didn't act. Instead, the million+ Eastern Europeans proceeded to distort the British economy, imposing social costs far in excess of any benefit the provided.
Indeed, your actions were to commission flawed study after flawed study, utilising bogus premises to assert lies that the immigrants were benefiting the country, not harming us.
So please, stop weeping crocodile tears. Stop performing U-turns when you have no power. You went full speed ahead when you had your hands on the levers of power, and you had access to the facts. We don't believe your claims. A damacene conversion on the road to the party leadership is laughable."
So one of New Labour's senior lieutenants has admitted that they were "wrong not to have restrictions on immigration". So that's an admission of unrestricted/uncontrolled immigration under that administration. Now all we need them to do is admit that uncontrolled immigration was a deliberate, albeit unspoken, policy of New Labour. I remember when they first got in they abolished those reasonable "Primary Purpose" rules on immigration via marriage opening up waves of chain migration and sending out the signal that the UK was an easy touch to get into. Which it proved to be in those 13 years.
"'Free movement of goods and services [without] free movement of labour'. So in other words, a two-tier Europe: Poles, Czechs, Romanians and so on are allowed to work - in Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania - for pittance in horrendous conditions in order to pproduce cheap goods/services that fuel our growth, comfortable lifestyles, etc, but if they want to have a share in this growth, lifestyle, etc., they'll be hounded away at the door.
If that's what you want, fine, but don't call it a 'fair and open world'."
"Mr Balls, what a nasty little article by a nasty little man.
You say

It is very cheap and inaccurate of you, no matter what MacShane has said, to accuse Mr Cameron in this manner.
Your own record in government is abysmal and I suggest that you and your friends allow the Coalition a chance to sort out the mess that you lot have left behind you."
"_AT_ BUrgau205
The decline of final salary pension schemes started, not in 1997, when so many posters on here think history began, but during the previous government, when pension fund surpluses were capped and pension contribution holidays for employers were not only permitted but encouraged. The result was that funds were much less well equipped to cope with market shocks and actuarial shifts."
You had 13 years, you did sod all. What you and your dis-credited nu-labour friends need to do is resign and let some fresh blood into the Labour party. That might be enough to prevent Labour from being out of power as long as the Tories. Of course that would require you and your nu labour friends to put country and party above you own interests. Not likely to happen.
"I don't remember you speaking out like this when Bliar and Brown were in charge.
Hypocrisy? or am I losing my memory?"
The easiest benefits (without workfare conditionality) and housing benefit system in Europe. Child benefit can be sent home. No language tests for you or your extended family. Free schools, free health care. Soft policing and enforcement. Soft tax inspection. Officials don't speak any languages apart from English. Idiosyncracies like pickpocketing and killing and eating swans accepted as valuable cultural diversity......
"Yes you were.
You were also wrong to let in so many from other parts of the world with alien cultures and to ignore the consequences on our way of life."
"Dogstarscribe
You have little understanding of defined benefits rules and are latching onto well worn but entirely incorrect canards.
I have to go shopping now but if you are around in about two hours, let me know and I will explain pension scheme holidays and the 5% accrual cap etc.
Suffice to say, pension holidays are normally imposed upon defined benefits schemes by scheme administrators or consulting actuaries and, in almost all cases do not convey an advantage to the corporate sponsor of the scheme.
The funding cap is likewise misunderstood by most employees who don't bother to read the scheme rule book."
"The perception that immigrants use/abuse the benefits system is a major factor in our concern about immigration. Most of the cases of gross abuse seem to be directed against Non-European immigrants. Housing benefit of over £1,000 per week being an example. We have a minimum wage structure in this country which means that both British & foreign workers have a common baseline for their pay. So we should not have stories of immigrants working for less than the minimum wage. It seems that most EU migrants what ever their qualifications would prefer to work rather than rely on benefits. This is in stark contrast to some British workers. A lot of the jobs being created in Britain are low wage, menial tasks. The Poles, etc see these as stepping stones to a better future, the British see them as offering nothing over their benefits. That is our problem!!.
Ed Balls & Labour dismissed the reality before the election, it has come back to haunt them now."
"Which is why I'll never vote Labour again. They still got loads of votes despite their immigration policy, and yet in a clamour for power they are prepared to be as racist and bigoted as the Tories. It is pathetic and they don't distinguish themselves from the racism of the Tories so what is the point of voting for them?
Immigration isn't a problem - racism and trying to blame whole sections of humanity for a country's ills is the problem."
"It's like Balls is up before the parole board.
""Yes, I understand now that what I did was wrong, really wrong. I caused a lot of hurt to a lot of people, and I'm really, really sorry.
But everyone deserves a second chance. So please let me out, and put me in charge of the country."""
"Cypher2

Not something Balls would care to talk about, or indeed the consequences which Nulab sought to control by what must be considered the creation of a surveillance state; which has reached an extraordinary pitch here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/04/birmingham-surveillance-cameras-muslim-community"
". That means re-examining the relationship between domestic laws and European rules which allow unaccompanied migrants to send child benefit and tax credits back to families at home.
This is crucial. We need to end the lunacy of giving tax payers money to immigrants in the form of benefits and tax credits which simply further incentivises people to come here.
Perhaps we could agree with other EU states that the cost of benefits to UK nationals else where in the EU will be met by HM Treasury on the condition the same applies in reverse.
As for non EU nationals if they are not able to earn their own living they shouldn't be here.
Immigrants should also be lower priority for social housing."
Nice to see that the Far Right blogs got their bloggers out of bed on a sunday and raving.
Not so much that as going to USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. British born and trained medical staff find there are no teaching (learning) positions in the UK Health Service as Health Trusts are not allowed to take them in preference to foreign born and trained medical staffs who now form the majority of clinical staff in the NHS. We train medical staff for other countries now, not for Britain.
"This article seems to have provided an opportunity to call Ed Balls a racist! Is there is no end to this word's wanton application? To a man intimately involved in a project to ""rub the middle classes noses in multiculturalism""?!
Now Balls is, without exception one of the most nauseating contemporary politicians. Just a little school cap on that tidy schoolboy haircut and the effect would be a truer representation of his Jeffrey Archer-esque eagerness to please; something which manifests itself as universal wariness.
But, while Balls is a hypocrite, a hopeless party-lackey and a laughing stock, I'm just not sure that accusing him of racism - because he thinks his party's made a rather unpopular mistake in the field of immigration, is going to help anyone not least because it's patently untrue."
At least one Labour leadership candidate is willing to speak the truth on mass immigration and the dreadful effect it has had on British society.
It does apply in reverse. If you can speak and read and write Romanian you can get a job in Romania and send Romanian child benefits home. Try it and see how much you get !!! Britain has the most generous no questions asked benefits system in Europe. No conditionalities. No qualifications required. That is the problem. We even provide translators !!!!
"Sorry Ed but I'd have thought a bigger reason to block Turkey's entry to the EU might be their lack of freedom of speech. It is a criminal offence to criticise the state or the republics founding father Ataturk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_301
If it is a criminal offence to publicly discuss the mass killing of Kurds and Armenians in 1915 then entry to the EU should not be allowed. I would love to see Turkeys entry to the EU on the basis of repeal of its most backward and human rights infringing laws."
"Algebraist

That is one of the finest posts I've ever seen on this site - thank you."
"Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view."
"Lemmywinks
6 Jun 2010, 10:25AM


Sorry not sure where your economic analysis comes from but some points to be considered:
1. The US is one country, even if it is federal state, so that transfer payments, education policy, and a national currency means that there is a fairer level playing field between workers in New York and Austin than say New York and a city in Mexico. If Turkey joins the EU tomorrow it does not overnight become the same as someone from London competing with someone from Manchester first or even Frankfurt second.
2.(a) If open borders in immigration were 100% positive why is this not included in the NAFTA agreement so that Mexicans and Canadians enjoy free movements - or does the USA know something you do not?
2.(b) Related to (a) is human beings are not just goods, they are the reason for democracy and utlimate actors who benefit from economic activity. So we play a different role than capital goods in society - thankfully!
A example would be - If capital goods prices were reduced on mass this can be a positive to the economy as a whole but if wages were redued on mass this is unlikely to be positive to the economy on a whole as wages = demand and demand = the buying of goods. Keynes was the pioneer of Macro vs. Micro and is worth a read on this subject.
3. Import and Export: Should an immigrants come in not to settle but to earn more for their families back home then they are effectively and import which means that purchasing power is lost abroad.
4. Economics vs. Society: man does not live by economics alone. Therefore, importing immigrants from an ""alien"" culture will have an effect (good or bad depending on your view points). If you value diversity then fine but some do not or not in every case at least. On the other side of the equation, immigrant can break the national cultural bonds and help to produce cultural gheteos. Immigration can result in ""strange"" cultural practices that are unwanted by the host culture: arrange marriages, female circumcision, primitive religious practice (i.e. believing in demonized children), family marriage (i.e. marrying between cousins) etc.
Overall, immigration is not 100% bad or good but a activity like any other that will produce winners and losers. Even if you net out the economic benefits and say that is a good thing that does still negate that there will always be winners and loser. But as point 4 shows, it has a cultural dimension which is ultimately a value judgement.
I'll stop there as I need to go for a jog...nice chatting all and as others have said it is only now that Ed is not in government he even acknowledges that immigration was a problem...prior to that when people like me and others mentioned it we were smeared with being little Englanders, biggots if not racist....

Sorry Ed, all I can say is too little too late.
Stanford...off for a jog."
"cinematizer

Easy to see what you're after, Cinematizer: foreigners to work over here ""in demeaning jobs for low wages"", as you said yourself.
Don't tell us - you're an employer, right?
No wonder you're ""grateful"".
But don't tell us British working-class how we're supposed to feel about it."
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This is a 'cock and balls' story!
"Immigration is normal now. Sorry, but there it is. Globalisation worked our way for 30 years (cheap food and the rest) but now it does not.
I live in one of those European areas Ed mentioned. 35% immigrant here (and this in a nation we Brits think of as not diverse). Not sure why he pointed us out though - there are relatively few Britains working in Frankfurt. (Only 7,000 in the whole German state inwhich it is located).
I think Brits need to open their eyes. Poles prepared to share cheap lodgings and do the jobs Brits don't want to? Yes, that's economic migration. Just like the myriad Brits in Berlin in their 200 Eur a month rooms getting all exciting about their nice generous German welfare benefits and 400 Eur a month jobs as well. And the zillion Brits in Spain who do not even register their presence and work ""black"".
That earlier nonsense about language tests is just typical low Beritish exectation. It takes a few months to get by in another language. It's no barrier to emigration. Means testing would be a far bigger one.
And as for those strange British men here who wet themseves because (wow) they were once in the same room as Polish girl and, guess what, she even deigned to speak to them. Really, try to be a bit cooler guys, perhaps? Plenty of us British ladies are hanging out with, having sex with, marrying, having children with foreign men. It's really no big deal. Totally normal. it says nothing about the British men we turn down."
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"Have I got this right?
Gurkhas can live here, because they are heroic ex-military men.
Other foreigners can't."
"Lemmywinks

They were brought in.
The British Government along with the CBI set up agencies in Eastern Europe to recruit workers and facilitate their emigration to Britain. They even advertised on Polish TV.
While avoiding conflictive areas (Burnley, for instance) they directed the workers towards designated towns and cities.
And they paid the councils to accept them.
I call that ""brought in""."
"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7144906.ece
There is a serious problem, their forecasts were complete shite
Funny that we have never been so enriched by immigration, but never so broke.
Obviously it is Mrs Duffy's fault, and all those dreadful indigenous bigoted proles of course.
What is needed is more immigration.
There should be more articles by Phillipe Legrain(http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/philippelegrain) on here expounding the great truths of the ""lump labour fallacy"" and that there is no fixed pool of jobs in the economy - he's right there; there's going to be a lot less"
"""Picking on white European immigrants is just a sneaky way for a left wing politician to disrespect immigrants without being called racist""
-how about the colour immigrants?
Are you blind?
; )"
"Ed, I wonder if you have stopped to consider that, if elected, you would put the Labour Party into reverse gear for parliaments?
Personally, I wish that you would have the good grace to recognise your unpopularity, (outside of the MP supporters who have nominated you for the leadership, from within the House of Commons), and stand aside.
After 13 years the party needs fresh blood. Not people who are tainted, and perceived by the electorate to be inextricably linked with failure."
"Ed Balls has got some nerve. This ' we screwed up ' posturing doesn't make amends for anything. As for the NHS, it has always had a low pay culture for ancillary staff like hospital porters, roundsmen, etc. It is a wonder the NHS ever attracted any blue collar workforce with the poor wages on offer.
I don't think the likes of Balls, or his Labour colleagues, have got a clue what they are on about when talking about the NHS. It clearly now is a poor imitation of the quality health service it once was."
You could start by sending back the Milibands. Skilled workers my arse.
"So, it is Ed Balls who is staking out the ground as the right wing candidate in the leadership election.
Theclaim made here that the overall impact of recent migration has eroded the wages and conditions of working class peopleis not borne out by the facts. Negative imnpacts of this sort have been limited both in terms of the sectors involved and geographical regions. To quote the findings of the WorkFoundation's study on the impact of migration:

Check http://theworkfoundation.co.uk/pressmedia/news/newsarticle.aspx?oItemId=45 for the source and the full study.
This article is evidence that a section of the Labour party elite believes that their power can only be re-built by situating themselves to the right of the coalltion, claiming that their subserviance to to banking and finance as a motor for economic growth represents a superior strategy to guide the recovery. Balls clearly intends to mobilise nationalistic anxieties to plot a course for his political fortune. These people never learn!"
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"But Mr Balls, several politicians informed us that as members of the EU, these Eastern Europeans were entitled to come in. So what is the ""allow"".
I suspect Mr Balls wants to appear tough on immigration and has picked in an easy diffuse target unlikely to accuse him of racism.
Rest assured, if anyone discusses asylum or other immigrants groups, he will be his usual right-on self throwing accusations like confetti."
"“strong controls on unskilled migration”
So why are there so many illegal immigrants and how do they manage to get in? They can’t all hide in lorries to cross the Channel.
At the same time as allowing virtually unrestricted immigration, the previous government made it increasingly difficult for legitimate visitors and businessmen to obtain visas. In fact it is so difficult that the massage is “we don’t want you”.
For example, about 18 months ago, a Tunisian employee of my company needed to obtain a visa to attend a trade show in the UK. Apparently his, and all other, applications and passports had to be sent to an independent UK government contractor in Egypt for a decision! Furthermore, the minimum time in which a visa could be issued was 15 days. We gave up.
I am now trying to help an Egyptian businessman to renew his 2 year multiple visa. However, it is barely worthwhile applying because of the burdensome questions. For example, he has to list all visits made outside Egypt, including dates, duration and the purpose of the visits, for the last 10 years! There must be at least 50 of these and I am sure many businessmen would have travelled much more than that over 10 years.
What relevance is it for a businessman, who wants to come to the UK for some meetings, to list the money he gives each month to his family and other dependents? How is this supposed to be answered, especially for someone with complicated financial arrangements that vary month by month? Why ask such questions as: Have you ever been involved in, supported, or encouraged terrorist activities in any country? Who on earth would answer ‘yes’?
For businessmen (and visitors), especially those already known to the UK authorities, there should be a much simpler procedure for visa applications.
Mr. Balls and other ex-ministers have much to answer for."
"orkney89 confided

Hang on orkney89 I'll check... (...reads standard Equalities and Diversity manual...)
Yes I can confirm it does. Congratulations, you have made a racist comment. You are using a negative stereotype (homely skanks) to deprecate a racial and gendered group, namely indigenous white British females. I'd take a wild guess that you don't belong to this group yourself.
No need to be concerned though since the groups you are comparing are both white european and therefore you can say what you like about them. The group you are deprecating, white Brits, have even less status on CiF so this probably didn't register on anyone's radar. Except mine."
"No, Balls. You weren't wrong for letting in eastern Europeans, you were wrong for letting employers pay rubbish wages and offer rubbish conditions and making the British labour market so ""competitive"". You pretended that your shitty, pathetic minimum wage legislation was all the protection that workers needed in the new Europe.
And you got away with all of this because, with the exception of a few old men, there are no working class MPs left in the Labour Party, no one to speak up for the unskilled manual labourers who bore the brunt of your ""competitive"" labour market."
"thfc123

Surely, it's up to employers to decide which level of English their employees speak."
Outrageous article………….why, Labour set up a special unit of the Border Agency in Sheffield which is forcing Romanians and Bulgarians to work for under the minimum wage and outside employment laws. The Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Security both are part of an elaborate system to try and prevent them obtaining NHI numbers, a legal right under European Law. There are agencies charging £600 for a Yellow Student card (issued by Sheffield) which allows them to work 20 hours a week. Hotels in London will engage Romanians to clean room at £5 per room. Frequently they may only get 2 or 3 rooms a day but need to be at the Hotel for 10 hours. Ed Balls really should be very careful about what he’s saying about European immigration.
"_AT_ArseneKnows 6 Jun 2010, 1:05AM

Tell us, do, exactly HOW one might describe the EU as a democratic institution? And if it is not - as it is not - why you think it a good thing? Already, we have seen it used to invert our legal system in such a way that whereas it used to be - for centuries - ""If it ain't specifically banned, it's legal"", now, the converse is the case.
Many Russians think it hilarious that 20 years after we trumpetted the fall of the Wall as the triumph of Western Democracy, we are now creating our own EUSSR, with an utterly unnacountable ruline elite in charge of us.
Anyway, over to you. I'm all ears ... so to speak"
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"If we had eradicated poverty in the UK, had decent wages at the low end, a decent public housing stock, had decent industries with decent apprenticeships and a sustainable economy with good long term prospects I would have been far more predisposed towards recent mass immigration than I am - although I will never 'blame' any immigrant of whatever nationality or colour for what has gone on here. Instead mass immigration has made England in particular even more of a basket case than it already was. Therefore IMO non-EU immigration and EU immigration should have been curtailed because it was bound to impact on the living standards of the people already here and especially as ever the poorest in our society.
As a result I for one will never forgive Labour for unfettered mass immigration and their flagrant use of the race card to discredit any criticism of such a policy so they could as I specfically recall ensure the Hoteling and Catering industries were supplied with all the labour they needed - copyright, D Blunkett circa 2003. (Imagine the entire make-up of a nation being changed to appease the Catering industry?!) So I don't care what you or any other nulab supporter say to ameliorate what you have done beyond noting this ill thought and predictably distasteful attempt to scapegoat Eastern Europeans (you should be ashamed to single any group in particular out!). And I don't think the Tories or Libs are any better. As churlish as it sounds you've effectively disenfranchised me through this and many other issues. I now know why so many people I know have totally and completely disconnected from politics. Depressing."
"MORE underpayed labour zones.
MORE delocalisation.
Open up your arms to global exploitation.
When it fails, use the old national pride trick."
"'Poles have become a symbol of honest work and fair pay. They speak better English than the natives, too'
Partly true. Honest? They have records of many sick- leave notes issued by the same doctor.They are familar with social security regulations and rules...
It is also true they are have the habit to squeeze other nationals out, by keeping the insider? information JUST to their country men. The younger females are willingly trade their dignity for better positions-the locals can hardly beat them-for some unarguable reasons.
There has been no host culture such a thing-they are all speaking their own language even at work, buying Polish foods, throw their Polish party every weekends-just go checking areas of their accommodations , how many refuse sacks they have thrown each week and to, how much child benefits they gained, for their homeland?
Yes, they are hard working and prepare to do almost anything for themselves, even they are the 'brought in'.
The locals can hardly survive with their hourly rates coz locals are not travelling/living together that they do not pay single occupant rated council tax but produced 4 or 5 times rubbish...anyway they are 'brought in to do what the lazy Brits do not want to do' by globalization.
If you are blind to these, then you should happily keep your mouth shut, that they are here for your retirement funding, and to improve your gene pools. All Brits should think of stop giving birth, as the Poles are the much better species, they speak better English than the Brits haha ; )
BTY, why not bring more Indian in, they speak/write much better English, and have much high IQ, and their girls are much prettier ( IMHO, slimmer) than those overfed Eastern European ladies?
And Mr Ball, it is too late to spin now."
"How many economist does it take to switch out the light bulb of neoliberal capitalism?
Too many, busy telling is its still working if we only change the decoration.
Obviously we have to do the society change ourself."
What are you talking about? Why is German young generation supposed to be pass away premature?
"Dunnyboy

Exactly - 40*£5.85/HOUR doesn't win any prizes with the high rents and utility bills that have to be forked out.
To the extent that British workers have opted for a ""life"" on benefits rather than working in min wage conditions this just shows that the latter is inferior to the former as a life-style; a pretty wretched state. Although overall we live in a mass unemployment society, which never went away from the eighties onwards -contrary to what gov't's claimed, and attempted to demonstrate with a whole raft of cynical expedients.
Every month we hear the same old rubbish to the effect that ILO measure unemployment is up, economic inactivity is up; but by some gravity defying device the claimant count is down.
Effectively setting min wage as a ceiling worsens the grotesque income disparities and social division within the country and also socialises the cost because WFTC and HB has to be paid out to ensure that people can survive at all - given that benefit spending accounts for about 30% of public expenditure this impacts adversely on the desperate fix we in vis a vis the deficit. Balls' wretched gov't did nothing to even try and stop the appalling drain of better paying manufacturing jobs which created real wealth and supported many more jobs throughout supply chains, unlike burger flipping and shelf-stacking. Balls and his demented boss were propagandists for win-win globalisation, which was a complete and utter lie"
If humanity wants to survive, the old work ethic mantra :" willing to do hard work under each social condition" has to be revealed for what it is : exploitation.
"Spot on PaulLambert
Capital, goods and services seem to have more rights than humans (workers)."
"Eastern European immigration simply replaced Irish immigration after the Republic of Ireland became richer and better run then the UK from the mid 1990's onward.
Ed Balls just found the Irish to be more of a laugh."
'we' did not decide that. You and your political buddies decided that. And now you seek to cynically use that decision to launch your leadership bid. You are dead in the water already if this is the best you can do.
"Stanford

Sad? SAD?????
It fills my heart with joy!
Let them bring in as many foreign middle-class undergraduates as employers want.
Throw our own molly-coddled, moaning, lazy, 9 to 5, bonus-grabbing, 4x4 driving, sanctimonious, posh-talking, anti-racist, Guardian-reading, wine-sodden middle-classes on the scrap heap.
I've heard there's plenty of jobs for them in Armenia, if they'll just get off their arses.
Let's see how they like it.
Then we working-classes can sit back and have a bloody good belly-laugh. God knows, it's time we had one."
Oh, I didn't know there was a Tory party leadership election as well! Strange timing, but there you go...
Ed Ball's immigration policy can be summed up in a few words: rob the poor countries of their skilled labour but keep the unskilled out. This apart from being immoral is also impractical. People who try to smuggle themselves into this country are among the most enterprising but are also the most desperate to improve their situations as well as of their immediate families. Those who are allowed to settle here bring their families over and find their children informed by the sufferings of their parents on the whole do much better than natve children in our school system. They are our future as much as anyone else. You can not walk along any high street in inner London without noticing the economic activities of the so-called unskilled workers. Many of them create their own jobs or do jobs which natives are not prepared to do. So why blame them for the predicament of of the unskilled workers in this country. Our welfare system is more to blame than anything else.
"...'so how does Labour plan to solve the problem of an ageing population?...
Immigrants don't grow old then?"
How does someone with live with a name like Ed Balls?
"You won't win votes from Labour Party members like myself by attacking migrant workers in a manner which comes across as racist when the real problem is the need for fair pay and decent, affordable housing for all. Labour failed on both these issues because it was in thrall to big business and the City of London. You never set the minimum wage high enough to take people out of benefits and because you allowed the private 'buy-to-let' housing sector grow uncontrolled and gave them tax perks on top, you made it very difficult for ordinary 'hard working families' (to use that phrase beloved by Labour politicians) to buy homes.
This not only alienated the young ones, it upset their parents as well (people like me and my wife). That thirteen years of Labour came to this is a measure of how badly you failed the Labour Party's core vote. The issues on the doorstep were low pay and expensive housing. Tackle these problems and you go a long way to addressing the issue of migrant workers.
Of course, Labour did better than the Tories or the Liberals would have done (or will), but when Brown and Blair embraced privatisation, PFIs and free markets to achieve what they did, they gave away far more than they gained and we and our children will be paying the price for a long time to come. And you, Ed Balls, were there at the centre and only now you tell us!
The fact that we held on in places like Nottingham where I live was because we have a community based Labour Party and a strong Labour controlled city council. I might always agree with them, but their mine and I want to feel that way about the next Labour government."
Of course New Labour are a joke, but I don't see anything racist about the article.
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Agreed after the first three words
"Northener

Too true
The axe is hovering over the Graun jobs page; time to put principles into practice
mathanai

A return to Dickensian London, nice"
"It is beyond irony that I, Tory to my boots and a fair bit right of David Cameron should choose to defend Ed Balls who is probably the most cynical and manipulative member of the last government and whose responsibility for the appalling damage they wrought will be spelled out many times in the future.
However, let me bring to your attention that Balls opposed the minimum wage vehemently on the grounds that it creates unemployment and thus its disadvantages far outweigh its presumed advantages.
In this, Ed Balls was right.
He does not mention it now though. Plu ca change.............."
"BeatonTheDonis

Yes and no. Having stayed in a supposedly good hotel for a night last week, I would as a customer have expected more of one the waiting staff than to have a perfectly reasonable question met with a blank stare, followed by the summoning of a colleague who understood basic English.
The employer is free to employ these people. I'm free not to go back again. And the Official Receiver is welcome to go in my place."
"Funny how people on this site are so staunchly pro free-markets when it comes to the movement of labour.
I enjoy the cultural benefit of our multicultural society but who really gains from immigration other then businesses who get to exploit foreign labour with long hours and low pay? Why is it so commonly accepted that British people are too proud to do certain jobs? What's liberal about keeping significant proportions of our society dependent on the state in order to survive? Sounds like a load of bollocks to me."
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"What a week of revelations. Confessions are being wrung from all areas of the last Government as people realign behind a new view of government, indulge in pre-emptive cleansing in the light of yet to be discovered transgressions, as here they try and eschew that that they were somehow suppressed and unwilling to be part of the fundamentals of the Government which, in all other departures, they were a strong proponent. Whom, bearing in mind the ease with which politicians have access to briefings and leaks, could not find a way of insinuating an altered view.
The FSA, Global Warming, two fundamental issues of modern day society, have been shown, at root, to be more issues of will rather than of fact. When a fabulously endowed Meteorological Office comes second best to a private company and its effective measures for assessing flying conditions, as with volcanic dust, we see a level of indirection that can amass when the political will is greater than the fundamental requirement. To what end have well meaning people been frightened into qualifications that the science does not actually have a clear view of? What countless billions have been squandered not addressing a problem but to prove a point? What risks have been taken with a country's economy simply because there has been a requirement to accommodate a dogma?
The Government, in a Cabinet environment, promised that the European directive on open boarders would only attract 12,000 or so people to these islands; I have no idea personally how many it did attract but estimations have suggested a million or more. Was Mr Balls, an agitator and a force suppressed by no one, not in on that comprehension of the situation? At which point in this Gulf of Mexico swell of human traffic did he have his Damascene moment of the actualité? Against a background of untrammelled access from the world in immigration numbers one would have thought that the pressure on services and the Welfare State would have informed him of the need for his intervention and the cautioning of his fellow Cabinet members. Yet only now he speaks; was Brown so much of a tyrant that before his departure the coterie surrounding him were frightened to speak their minds?
This is the Andrew Neather exposé made real. The truth is that the trap that Labour constructed was prepared for the Tories, to ‘out’ them on immigration policy and to have the propaganda coup in abeyance, '...the Tories are a neo-Nazi band of racists', if the Tories ever tried to oppose Labour disastrous support for a deeply inflicting policy that even they privately did not seem to want? The scale of immigration and the discontinuity it has caused is potentially far more damaging for Britain than the current financial crises. Financial matters can be confronted and challenged - an immigrant is for life and all subsequent lives.
You see, now that all the arguments about the purposefulness of immigrants and the benefits they accrue, their general good nature, the lessons they teach us, the wonders of multiculturalism, are all for nought, for we now know that such amiability was required to sell the project and had no need to have any association with reality. I quite like the ""Good porcelain doggy"" advert, it tickles me. Ask me what is being sold and I would not have a clue. The same could be said for Labour's insistence on the scale of immigration. Was there promise about selling dirty jobs to dirt poor people? Were they going to lift the immigrant’s children out of poverty or our own? Was it really worth denigrating the white working class so vehemently just to find space for a Tory trap? Were immigrants going to pay for our pensions and how?
As the whole of the intake was personified by the Labour Government as being good fellows to a man so it was easy to establish that a whole class of white indigenous people could be personified as little more than trailer trash by comparison as the cuckoo state eased its old allies out of the historic alliance; this could be done in the name of policy! How much we have been manipulated: Global Warming, GM, 'the money's all gone', volcanic dust, 'that bigoted woman'. Key resignations in regulatory authorities point to organisations that were told what their message had to be and told to go and look for some sort of supporting cod science with which to do it. The money and the volcanic ash seem of the same substance, and that bigoted woman, she did no more than Lear's Fool, Dostoyevsky's 'Idiot' in demonstrating the simple truth, but stating what the executive did not want to hear.
Mr Ball's has a neck! He either shows himself to be merely an opportunist or gutless. Which sword does he fall on? The former, in that he can slip-on a policy as you or I would pull on our ‘kecks’, the latter in that he suggests that someone made him do it, stay silent despite his better judgement. Which vision is the more egregious?"
"Mr Balls,
There are a lot of fact-free statements in your piece, for example:

This is totally contradicted by this:
""UK economic recovery to lag France and Germany, S&P forecasts""
""[S&P] paint a picture of a three-speed recovery with big northern countries gaining the most momentum, southern countries such as Spain and Greece just about clambering out of recession and the UK sandwiched in between.""
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/03/uk-economic-recovery-lag-france-germany
Hang on a minute... the UK 'sandwiched in between'? Which translated in non-culinary terms means the UK being a mediocre average if it was inside the Eurozone.
Balls joins the Europhobic theories pointing to the idea that the UK is sooooo lucky it is not in the Eurozone because by being out it can apply its own monetary policy, e.g. devalue its way out of trouble, and come out of the recession first and in the best shape of them all?
The only difference I can see between the 'crisis hit' Eurozone and 'non crisis hit' UK is that the UK's inflation is way above that of the Eurozone.
The other difference is, perhaps, that the UK scrapes a position in the middle of the 'sandwich' only thanks to vast quantities of money printing, e.g. property prices are up by 12% year on year.
Haven't we been here before?

What Directive? The one that you were hell-bent on breaking while in government?
""E-BORDERS"" PROJECT TO DIGITISE IMMIGRATION CONTROL ""WILL BE ILLEGAL IN EU"" SAYS COMMITTEE
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/home_affairs_committee/091218.cfm

You would appear more honest if you stopped peddling this Blairite, Brownite nonsense. You should just say ""We are nominally in the EU because Uncle Sam wants us to but Britain is nowhere near the heart of Europe as it is the only EU country that has refused to join the two most prominent pillars of European integration, the Eurozone and Schengen (the pillar that guarantees *true* freedom of movement of people inside Europe).""

This is an honest but incomplete assessment. You should openly state that from then on, immigration policies have turned into a farce of tough talk, rings of steel and points based systems that are nothing but a totally misguided and flawed kneejerk reaction to the backlash created by the Eastern European migration. In other words, all the rest of immigrants and the travelling public in general have been made a scapegoat for that 2004 policy, without having any effect whatsoever on how many Eastern Europeans are in the UK or arriving in the future (not that I'm personally bothered with that anyway).
Of course it is now too late to bring any common sense into the matter as the whole British political elite have reversed into a border control fundamentalism group think. Too late as you didn’t listen to common sense advice given to you *before* this populist-fundamentalist group think infected the whole of the political elite:
“48. The Government failed to convince the Committee that systematic border control as currently practised for all arrivals in the United Kingdom, whether from the European Union or elsewhere, is the most effective use of resources to control illegal immigration or is focused on the main sources of illegal immigration.”
""59. We believe that in the three major areas of Schengen—border controls, police co-operation (SIS) and visa/asylum/immigration policy—there is a strong case, in the interests of the United Kingdom and its people, for full United Kingdom participation. Free movement throughout the EEA is a right which all citizens of the United Kingdom should be entitled to enjoy.”
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldselect/ldeucom/37/3705.htm"
"We fucking know you were! We kept telling you! Just like Iraq and the WMD, you didn't listen. That's why you've been dumped on your arses out of Downing Street.
Ed Balls - at least you got your name right."
"Britain as a whole has done quite nicely thank you due to the immigration from the eastern block. Yes it’s kept the wages down, yes it’s made it harder to get a job and yes it’s made it harder to fine low cost housing.
However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased.
With this in mind what would have happened without the increase in available labour? One thing inflation would have gone through the roof and intern your pay increase would have meant nothing much and the UK would intern not be moving forward.
Examples, Birmingham around 2001-2004 was a building site myself I was a banker within a retail bank and receiving and assisting Polish, Iraqi and Afghan workers opening accounts and paying there wages into them, for a month on the Birmingham building sites they were bringing cheques in to the value of £1800-£2000, thinking that the building trade was massive at this point within the whole of the UK what would these wages have been without the so called cheap foreign workforce?
I like Ed Balls I really do, however I feel that this is “Hi my names Ed too and I did listen, I did make mistakes and I have changed my view. This is New Labour’s evolution, and we know you have real concerns and when I’m the leader I’ll address them.”
However, what is needed is an expanding economy, with an availability of real jobs, decent wages and a place to bring up our children in an affordable place to live. Something the expanding economy has simply forgot about."
"Britain was one of the only three countries in 2004 to give all new EU citizens automatic work rights. But the Home Office’s blunder was based on an estimated figure of up to 13,000 a year to move to the UK. However, in the same year the number has jumped to 600,000. This was happening in a total vacuum and without a managed system in place to ease the pressure on schools, hospitals and our transport, a typical Labour fudge. Labour's mismanagement affected everyone, I am sorry to say that Labour has only managed to create a Satsi Orwellian system.
At the time, the ex- Labour minister, Frank Field said on the EU free labour movement “We foolishly went ahead and had an open-door policy and instead of between 5,000 and 13,000 people arriving, in the first year something like half a million did”. Even the former Home Office Minister John Denham called on the Government to delay full rights for Bulgarians and Romanians, saying the UK needed ""breathing space"" to soak up the last wave. It beggars belief that we are also paying child benefits in their own, EU countries.
Now though, Ed Balls, is drumming up the immigration card to win votes, this is no more than the politics of bankruptcy. Nowadays it is becoming fashion to hear from Labour's senior politicians, we were wrong."
In order to avoid new wars in Europe, it was created EU. Robert Schuman was one of the first politicians that wanted the European union. He meant to eliminate the crisis between France and Germany, which had led to the first and second world war. Other politicians and the US longed EU to decrease Soviet influence into Europe. Nowadays those problems don't exist any more, therefore it's a commercial alliance rather than a political exigency. To what extent is European politics being important for EU member countries? In spite of no real political exigency, EU is influencing the national policy and, what's more, it seems to me those political actions are wrong. Greek working class mayn't pay for absurd economic policy. The European stability pact has been a breakdown, and has increased unemployment and inflation. Sooner or later there will be another country in crisis owing to it. Europe has got to improve its rules. It could do with swelling public investments. The US has done it, and unemployment is lower and lower there. But I'm quite sure the EU won't do it. Instead of dealing with it, all of them will keep doing stupid economic rules.
"Quernston
6 Jun 2010, 12:59PM

The plan is, as soon as our old people become infirm/reached the age where they need looking after, Labour will import loads of young Eastern Europeans to look after them, wipe their arses, cook food, etc. etc. Then, as soon as said elderly people die, the young immigrants will be thanked, paid-off, and sent back home!
Some immigrants, of course, will stay here upon realising its either wipe arses, drive buses, or pick asparagus!"
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:7"
"kookboy
`However and it’s a big however, the availability of cheaper labour has made for a prolonged period of growth in an economy that was in decline prior to the favourable economic migrants. There has been almost 13 years of uninterrupted growth and expansion within the UK’s economy, year on year everyone’s income has more or less increased'
Are you the last one left to understand that this was all an illusion, based upon, at the outset, spending every penny in treasury,selling half our gold reserves and then borrowing to the extent that the country is now bankrupt.
Do you still really not understand this?
Balls, Cooper and Brown were the architects of all this, and now he has the brass neck, being bought and paid for by the Unite union to aspire to the Labour leadership.
I for one hope that he achieves his goal which will mean the chance of us ever seeing a Labour government fades into oblivion.
.
`"
"We were wrong to allow so many eastern Europeans into Britain.
That's a understatement if ever I heard one, strange that its only now you are in opposition that you have suddenly seen the light nothing to do with losing I suppose.
The problem is that these EU economic migrants haven't just taken the jobs that brits don't want to do they are taking all the jobs we are quite capable of doing especially those of us in the 55 plus age group.
The only reason the NHS relies on low paid migrant workers is because at the lower levels they pay crap wages and most employees can only make a decent living with extra hours ( before the comments come I did NHS payroll ).
As for letting Turkey into the EU do you honestly think that we believe you when you say you would restrict the numbers coming into our country. Thats easy for you to say now but after the last debacle when millions came in when you knew that unemployment was much larger than your fudged figures admitted. If you had retained power I doubt we would be reading any of this as you would still be living in your socialist fairy land and we could expect millions of Turks coming into our country while you told us it was good for the economy."
Rubbish - immigration did not lose the Labour Party the election. A confused and faulty line on the economy was (and remains) the problem. Before the 2010 budget, Labour laid out a clear Tory cuts versus Labour investment message. This closed a 14 point Tory lead. Following this years budget and Darling's foolish declaration of "cuts as deep as Thatcher", this positive trend was reversed.
God, I wish his wife were running......
Yes. Good.
"Hm Ed, going for the working class vote are ye? Youre base in the north? Daily mirror readers?
Thars sure how it sounds to me...
""in communities ill-prepared to deal with the reality of globalisation, including the one I represent.""
Not youre fault was it Ed? Just happened, just like the financial crisis? Who couldve known??"
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 12:19PM

We did. Years ago. Poverty is hungry kids. Poverty is barefoot kids - as I saw in Ireland in the 70s. Poverty is kids not going to school.
I was born in 1951. My dad worked hard running a small business, and we were on a post-war boomer estate with everyone the same. We were quite well off, but most had no TV, half of us had cars, and none of us went abroad for our holidays.
There is no poverty in the UK - except the poverty of your bankrupt ""ideology"" or bigotry.
Next?"
it wasn't just Eastern Europeans who came in droves. It seems like half of Nigeria has moved here too. When I last looked Nigeria wasn't in Europe, so that excuse doesn't wash. Not as if they are doing skilled jobs either, mostly cleaners or security guards. Filling the jobs that 13 years of Labour education policies have failed to educate the indiginous population for.
Right sentiment, but too late! The damage has been done and I do not believe the present incumbents have the will or desire to 'rock the boat'. No point any party burying heads in the sand, immigration is a nettle that must be grabbed. You will allow the BNP and other facist organisations to gain footholds if you do not listen to what the majority of the British people want.
Too late, blame the opposition party like the Liebour Party always do.
"_AT_ Burgau205
I completely understand what has happened and I realise some policies on spending were incorrect, however If you read the whole statement you will see I actually think this statement and interview with Ed is indeed a bit of spin.
With regards to us being bankrupt, I think that we're close to 800 billion in debt however what assets do we have for these debts? We pretty much own the entire banking sector, this will be sold on and the real debt not just the deficit will be cut, it’s the total that needs to come down. Just like a household if you get in debt you have a few ways to get yourself out of it, tighten your belts or sell some assets, as soon as the crisis is over there will be a sale of the banking sector, this was the plan after all.
Massive cuts to the public sector isn’t just a magic wand that takes all the waste away, think about the human cost and if that doesn’t fire any neurons, think about the extended cost of getting rid of public sector workers on a large scale quickly. Much like the touted selling of gold announcement by Brown, gold is a commodity much the same as labour, already in Warwickshire there has been 1000 redundancies from the public sector, within Warwickshire the public sector pay is generally slightly higher than the private sector. Meaning they are standing on there own feet. 1000 skilled office workers going in a town of less than 100000, will have an effect on the rates of pay offered (the average will be close to minimum wage already) so intern this will increase tax credits and housing benefit, E.g. myself and my partner before the banking crisis pulled in close to £60k now we are on minimum wage and getting 50% of our income from benefits. So instead of being a net contributor we’re net consumers.
Lets face it, the condems have got there sums wrong as labour did. Yes there needs to be the eradication of waste, also there needs to be the cash spent on the right things, the things to get the UK moving."
"Labour considered the working class, exemplified by Mrs Duffy, as bigoted, but they were happy enough to recruit lads from areas of high unemployment into the army to serve as IED fodder in their evil wars.
Outside the ""Country Girl"" pub near Selly Oak yesterday I saw a young soldier in a wheelchair - his right leg had been reduced to a short white bandaged stump, he had arm damage and he was talking in a stange hoarse whisper to his parent, who was pushing the wheelchair, . I guess he was ""luckier"" than the unfortunate lad I saw a couple of weeks previously who had lost both legs.
These were terrible sights
Truly with a track record like Nulab's a Japanese politician would be contemplating an honourable course. Balls otoh wants to be Prime Minister."
"Born in Brighton? Then you can work in London.
Born in Leeds? Then you can work in London.
Born in Paris? Then you can't work in London. Although, of course, if you're a 21 year old French fashion model, you can work in London if the shoot requires it. If the Spanish art director has ordered it.
This is the system we want, really. Unfortunately, no government in the world (apart from North Korea) seems able to give us what we want.
We want the right to move while denying others the same right.
As a Londoner, I have no right to stop someone from Brighton commuting into London each day and taking ""my job"" but I'm meant to be all upset and vote BNP if a bloke from Paris does the exact same thing as the bloke from Brighton."
"ED Balls you are obviously desperate , to now complain about the New Europeans
Biggot! not just that but , sadly you represent failed politicans who overstayed & did not deliver.
You like Dedwood should all be defeated
IF Labour is truly to have a chance otherwise,
we need to talk about a new Third Party !
Maybe the Greens , everything has to start with 1 !
Balls you shoudl liek Laws leave the House as you do not offer New Politics anything , except probable bitterness
David Milliband on Marr today was also a dispointment- and did nto look liek a Future PM--
Tristram Hunt should eb considerd -
not just because he is young 35 but when Labour , might have a part to play,
in 5 years he will be right age 40
T R I STR A M H U N T"
Oh cheers Mr Balls ! Thanks very much for your wise words on this topic ! Any chance you might also recant on the topic of academies ? Here in Northampton, our rapidly improving school , Unity College , is to be turned into an Academy ! Needless to say, the parents , staff and students are dead against this ! So what say you Balls ? Stop David Ross taking over our school ! Keep our headteacher ! keep our uniform ! Keep our name !
"kookboy
Thank you.
Very well considered post.
The problem is that the structural deficit they talk about ignores the funded and unfunded pensions black hole which if included expands the total deficit to between £1.5 to £2.0 trillion.
This black hole is a total commitment which cannot be dodged so the total deficit renders the country bankrupt by any normal definition.
Brown, Balls and Cooper have completely ignored the pensions black hole because they rightly assume that the populous does not understand the dire implications on us and especially on our children..
They are beyond contempt.
I had the good fortune to discuss the egregious pensions grab which destroyed UK final salary schemes with Cameron, albeit briefly, some months ago.
He surprised me by his knowledge of the subject and of the individual figures involved. When I asked him if his policy was to turn this ignominious situation around, his response was that he would certainly do this if it were possible but `there is just no money'.
Here we have Balls touting for business again, and even worse, we have people supporting him who do not have the first understanding of the magnitude of the damage this terrible man has caused.
According to the Spectator (I think it was) the pensions tax grab was Balls' idea.
On hearing of this, one of our most respected pensions specialists, begged him to relent but apparently Balls had tin ears.
He has much to pay for."
Go Enoch!... I mean Ed!
"Perhaps a solution would be that at an early age all citizens of Europe sign a contract promising never to move from their zone and knowing that if they break the contract they will do life in prison.
So, for example, someone born in Hull would be unable to take that job in France or America or Chichester and, indeed, would be legally bound to spend their entire life in Hull.
Unworkable?
You mean that regardless of who we vote for, immigration and emigration, illegal migration and internal movement are going to be a part of life and the human experience along with sex, television, books, computers and alcohol?
It's quite possible that at points in the future there will even be much more movements of peoples than today? Yes, that's actually quite likely.
Just because some humans lived through the second world war doesn't mean they experienced the very pinnacle of human evil. It's quite possible that on a long enough time line, something far, far, far worse will happen.
As with a ""golden age"" - it is likely that human beings have not experienced the""golden age"" yet - it being something that will happen in the future before it too passes into history, for future generations to lament.
Doesn't really matter who you vote for, Tory, Labour or BNP - teenagers will keep having sex. In the future it's quite possible technology will make both STDs and unwanted pregnancies very rare things indeed thus leading to an absolutely massive increase in human sexual activity of all kinds. 400 years from now a new ""golden age"" of sex will be taking place and will last for 290 years before that terrible war kills off much of humanity...
Whatever the future holds for us we know that life will change in countless ways. Doesn't matter who you vote for."
"stealthbong

Why spoil a good argument with a short list.
ID cards, the DNA database, the third runway, stop and search (= banning photography), academy schools...
There are many more. If Labour had shown some humble pie before the election, some willingness to backtrack when, clearly, these policies enjoyed no popular support, they might even still be in office.
It's just whining for Balls to say ""OK, give us another go"".
Labour need a leader willing to tear everything up and start over - much as Blair did with clause 4.
None of the current leadership candidates will do that. So it's goodbye from them..."
"_AT_Burgau205
With regards to the scale of missing funds I do believe that a more radical approach of finding new taxes and items to be taxed will eventually bring about the paying of our structural deficit. As well as the modest amount of growth that I dare say will happen over the next few years as long as the cuts now aren't too savage.
I would like to see some urgency within the creation of the Tobin style tax however I dare say this will wait until after the sale of the banks to maximise the sale value.
All said it truly is an exciting time but one full of pit falls and a great one to debate."
"steve hill
I have an existential fear that when the economies really bite hard, ssay in about four years time, the populous will be so angry that they re-elect Balls and his friends.
In my worst nightmares, (including the one where I can't find my car and my teeth are falling out) this comes about."
"_AT_CorneliusLysergic
For one thing I don't consider being better off than 50s Ireland as progress.
And the UK still has severe problems with poverty:
http://tinyurl.com/346zgz3
1.6 million children in Britain live in housing that is overcrowded, temporary, or run-down. Some live in housing that’s making them ill. Many are missing out on a decent education. Others suffer chronic insecurity, shuffled from place to place in ‘temporary accommodation’.
I'm not saying we aren't better off than many countries. That obviously isn't the case. My point is is that we are not as rich as we are supposed to be and that in actual fact successive UK govts had no right to flood us with immigrants to compete for vital resources when there was still so much poverty here. By this I mean immigrants were a very useful immoral tool with which Govts and their Employer friends could stop any proper redistribution of income in this country. And beyond that there simply was no mandate by the British people for mass immigration. This principle is just as important as anything else involved in this debate."
"It's largely a question of attitude and ethical axioms. Is it the job of an MP to make the world a fairer place or to act to benefit the citizens who elected them? We need MPs who are prepared to stand up for the interests of UK citizens EVEN WHEN it makes the world as a whole a less fair place.
Nationalism has been unfairly demonised when it is at the bedrock of a democratic society. Of course extreme nationalism is bad, but so is extreme socialism or extreme environmentalism or even extreme altruism or extreme anything. Life and politics is about balancing competing interests in a proper manner. MPs are not elected to become rulers of the world but of a country, whose citizens have interests specific to them which must be represented at that national level, and cannot be left unrepresented, or the balance is destroyed. Just as I guess that if the welfare state was entirely abolished communists would rush in to fill the vacuum a complete abandonment of nationalism can only lead to such as the BNP gaining ground, which is what we have seen. The rise of the BNP can be traced to the mindsets and prejudices learnt by politicians in universities in the 70s and 80s that nationalism is some kind of evil in every regard that will whither away in time and is synonymous with concentration camps, and the erroneous decisions such mindsets led to.
One of the greatest problems now is that we have seen so many mainstream politicians say one thing and do another, or do things without telling us their real motives, prominent amongst those things Labour and immigration*, that we cannot really know what it is they are actually selling, and hence whether we want to buy it.
*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
A faulty immigration policy might have been forgivable, but deceiving your employers, us, about what you were up to, presumably to ""make the world a better place"" and treating us as if we don't really know what's good for us, is unforgivable. Not to get too tin foil / Bilderberg conspiracy, but there really are very rich people out there who want globalism and complete free flow of labour and want to bend national governments to their will. It is the job of elected politicians to protect our interests from their considerable power, and that often involves choosing between what is good for this country and what is good for the world and choosing the former."
"kookboy
Indeed, but I am of the school which believes that tax increases slow growth and exacerbates unemployment.
It was Canada and Australia which both avoided big recessions by cutting taxes and cutting public expenditure.
Brown and his bunch of chancers could not do this because they were engulfed in a cloud of discredited socialist dogma, even though they stopped using the S word.
Cameron believes in low taxes and low public expenditure but I expect to see higher VAT since to an extent this tax, like IHT is voluntary
we will also see higher rates of inflation for a time I fear and all governments hate inflation."
"I admit it... I haven't read any further than this line.
Agencies, many of them based in Ireland but allegedly Polish in origin, were on standby waiting for the UK's policy to immigrant workers regarding the EU's Eastern European members.
They were aware that several member states intended to protect local economies by ensuring that jobs had to be advertised prominently at the appropriate employment agency for the going rate.
If there were no takers for the position, then any immigrant worker had to be paid the going rate and properly housed.... not on site or adjacent sites.
Oddly enough, where these measures were enforced, they did not see pockets of mass immigration.
These EU guidelines were not implemented here in the UK.
It is worth remembering that many of these immigrant workers were exploited and once deductions were removed from their pay, they found themselves working 10 hrs a day on a 6 day week for just over 2 an hour. There was of course no appropriate agency in the UK to deal with this exploitation even if those they were contracted to had close ties with the local, district and county councils.
From were I stood, the governments' failure wasn't the immigration policy, regardless of ""no more boom and bust"" it was the legacy of several decades of the boom and bust mentality and a trickle down approach.
It was the lack of investment in skills, the failure to protect local jobs and a decent wage when skills or training were available.
There is no single government agency to defend the basic rights of exploited immigrants working in this country and with the Workfare (New Labour policy) coming into its own, this is likely to remain the case.
Personally, I don't see New Labour's failure to control the flood of cheap skills into the labour market as lack of joined up thinking... rather I see it as their prelude to a liberalised, devalued wage-wedge."
Told yu fucking so
"Having written his piece I don't imagine Mr Balls will look at this thread for a second. He is practising (as career politicians do) getting the emotional mood and tone right for speeches he might make in his campaign.
The thread proves 1 point more than any other. If you say/write anything that is even vaguely critical about the policy of ongoing mass immigration then middle class people willl assume you are an ingrained racist and some will actually vocalise with varying degrees of antipathy ranging from mild distaste to furious abuse. This is a class phenomenon. Poorer Brits are more inclined to listen although those who hang on to the old internationalist constellation of 'Left' policies cannot allow themselves to even hear such stuff.
Mr Balls is practising talking to 'his people'. Good luck to him. The immigration topic needs to be raised constantly at every level if it is to become a fit topic for calm debate, especially amongst opinion formers.
It is quite possible that the EU will collapse. Nobody knows. It was blazingly obvious that it expanded too quickly at American and Big Business prompting. The other big issue (apart from immigration) for Labour is to accept and promote PR. It's fairer, everyone gets a say and what is more everyone can feel that their vote has counted in some way. Mr Balls is not likely to win his contest but the more mainstream politicians who recognise the opposition to mass immigration the better."
"All that Balls is now suggesting is restricting migrants from Romania and Bulgaria, who are very few anyway. It will make no practical difference to the wages of the low-paid, so he is simply pandering to the BNP vote.
But I'd like to go back to the euro debate, because it seems to be assumed without question that the UK was right to stay out of the single currency. What nobody seems to realise is that, if the UK had joined, it would have been the second-biggest economy in the euro area, with a major influence on ECB policy. Not just interest rates but, more important in view of the current crisis, on the enforcement of the rules which should have prevented the lax policies of Greece and other countries. In other words, if the UK had joined, the current crisis in the eurozone would have been much less likely to happen."
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"_AT_tomedinburgh

and is therefore, in and of itself, racist."
"low skills are not the most important criteria for am immigrant - low aspirations are.
Which group attended night classes, became successfully employed - and as an absolute decider - whose children gained the highest qualifications.
Studies should easily show what immigrants end up a positive - and policy should be driven by that."
"Ed... your party had over 13 years to prove it wasn't just another middle class right wing party.
Your party punished the unemployed and drove wages down to suit your city friends.
Game over. Hurry up and die Labour."
EvaWitt Thanks :) Wish the site had an edit function - wrote it with such speed, bit embarrassed at some of the typos.
Why are we demonizing Eastern Europeans they have right to be here? What about the Immigrant from outside the EU. Some of the immigrant came here to make their life safe and progressive, but in the process our lives have been blighted by very high crime rate, murder etc. Why can’t we send those criminal element back, now even some refugees and asylum seekers has joined the foray. No immigrants’, refugees, asylum seekers should be entiled to any benefit or nationality till they have lived in this country legally for more then 10 years?
I realise that my views are not very common with other CiF contributers but it does warm the cockles to know that the overwhelming majority of repsonses on this thread are anti Mr Balls.
"The problem is that people are seeing immigrants as the problem with housing and facilities and low wages.
Yet it is Labour's neglect of social housing and merry encouragement of house prices spiralling out of control that is at fault. It is Labour's backing of agency middlemen taking a fat cut of workers salaries, and Labour's delay in fixing local authority grants to population increases that are the cause of the problems.
And Ball's has shown no sign whatsoever of realizing that it was those policies, and not immigration, that have been creating the problems."
I hadn't noticed most problems in England were caused by immigrants from the East of Europe.I stupidly thought they were caused by other immigrants!
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word "Their" (as in belonging to them) spelled as "There" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!
I agree! And they should all be deported well within the 10 year period, if they have nothing to offer us, but financial liabilities.
"_AT_thfc123

Though some of us are anti-Balls because he speaks too much bollocks, some of us are anti-Balls because he doesn't speak enough bollocks.
_AT_jalte

You stupidly think ""most problems in England"" are caused by immigrants.
""Most"" problems - really?
Sure there are issues, but blaming immigrants for everything isn't going to address the real issues is it?"
"Woo, populism. That'll get some support for a week or so. Like someone said, maybe you should have mentioned paedophiles, or how the eatern Europeans are cooking Her Maj's swans or something to really seal the deal.

That's kinda backward though, what you're essentially saying, to slice it another way, is that it's ok for Brits to move abroad in search of higher wages, but it's not ok for people from countries with a lower average wage to do the same thing? I know we like to think of ourselves as some special bastion of enlightenment, but from the outside looking in it just seems like a mixture of racism and belief in the inherent superiority of the great mythical indigenous British population.
Please, just go away. If you win on this platform I shall be asking for my party membership money back."
"How the high and mighty chane their colours to suit.
Has the man no shame he was one of those who allowed immigration to get out of control, now when it suits him he changes his opinion to suit.
With a bit of luck we hopefully will see the last of him when the leadership election finishes.
The man is a complete p***"
"I've just come back from holiday in Crete - the resort of Malia to be precise.
Almost all the locals speak English and there are British people working all over the village. The young Brits are holiday reps, tour guides, restaurant staff and shop assistants. Some older British people also live in work in the area. The British influence on the village was so strong that all of the restaurants on the main strip offered diners an English breakfast and you could watch only Fools and Horses on big screens all over the place.
Now, it might be that in Brussels, Paris or Munich, most British immigrants are working in higher-paid jobs. I honestly don't know. However, in Malia, most British immigrants were doing the jobs that Greek youth could have done quite easily. The influence of tourism on the economy of Malia and the benefits that British tourists bring cannot be understated but please let's put paid to this ridiculous notion that only Eastern Europeans or people from other countries travel to the UK for work. There are plenty of people moving in the opposite direction and wherever they go and work, they take local people's jobs."
Try and get benefits if you have been living abroad. You'll find them routinely refused. You can't pop over from another EU country and just claim benefits.
"A special tax should be levied on all middle class smug guardian types to pay for all the benefits given to immigrants.
Even those that do work, do low paid jobs. Don't try to tell me that such wages give them enough money to get accommodation and raise a family. We the tax payer have been paying for their upkeep.
Those who caused the mess should pay. Plus being so right thinking and moral, they don't believe in private property, so they won't mind losing theirs."
"Well there was a time when the territory now known as Turkey was firmly within the Mediterranean mainstream and Constantinople (as the city was then known) was the Rome of the East (as the capital of the Greek Empire). The Turks may originate from Northern and Central Asia, but then the Slavs, the Celts and the Germans also originate from areas of Asia ranging from the Urals to the Middle East. The original human population of Europe was the Neanderthals. Any population with an Indo-European language developed it while they lived within a broad arc stretching from Quetta to Tashkent and Tehran.
It's a good idea to know something about the subject before you post. Failing that, consult the University of Wikipedia or better still, read a book."
When you see the NHS begin to contract, local authority social services go into decline, the winter fuel allowance abolished and the retirement age begin to approach 75 you'll see that whoever is in power the problem you refer to will soon be a problem no more.
"Joinupsignin
Why can you not say in The Guardian that excessive immigration from asian is wrong for Britain.
Its not racist, its an opinion, shared by a great many people who are getting angry that in this country and on this site people cannot express this political view.
Evidently you can express your view on this site regardless of how ignorant or ineloquent or right wing you or they are.
Asian: 1. of or relating to Asia or to any of its peoples or languages 2. A native or inhabitant of Asia or a descendant of one.
Asia: The largest of the continents, bordering on the Arctic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Indian Ocean and the Meditaranean and red seas in the west...
Be careful about making one of those 'shouldn't be here if they can't speak the language' schpeels. BNP might get in and stick you on the first boat back to Asian."
"And so speaks Mr Know it all.
But you seem to have left out that even in Early Roman times the East was considered to be different from the West. The men were considered to be effeminate unlike the hardy boys in the West.
In any case there were strong cultural ties between east and west when the Romans and Greeks were in charge of what is now Turkey. But then the same could be said about Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Arabia. I suppose they are part of Europe too, according to your bien pensant logic?"
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"Maggie was wrong on so many things, but she once said, ""The problem with socialists is that they eventually run out of other people's money"". You dropped the socialism, proclaimed the end of boom and bust and STILL ran out of taxpayers' money. That's your greatest achievement.
The rapidly looming cutbacks, mounting unemployment, reductions in benefits and destruction of our educational institutions aren't just the fault of the Tories, or even the Tories and Libdems- if they were they would happen in at least 2-3 years, not right now. So should we extend your advice to the whole of Europe? Would they accept it?"
"A 2007 article from the Independent* by Jack Dromey:
* http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/jack-dromey-immigration-has-made-britain-a-better-place-400113.html


* http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2010/nisr_20100162_en_1
** http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6734153.ece
*** http://www.freelancesupermarket.com/news/2010/5/24/recruiters-to-discuss-agency-workers-regulations.aspx"
"There were 2 factors that made me realise I could no longer support Labour.
1. Ministers expected 13,000 east Europeans would come to the UK per year. I knew that was wrong. Around 1,000,000 have come. Absurdly bad judgement.
2. Eighty per cent of new jobs in the UK since 1997 have gone to foreign workers, as John Humphreys pointed out to me one morning.
I find these numbers frightening. A significant part of my head supports UKIP."
"New Labour, that useless populist blob of soundbites and Murdoch fags, appears to have decided that they lost the election because they weren't tough enough on immigrants/asylums seekers and benefit cliamants. This despite their utilisation of latter-day concentration camps and the iniquitous Welfare Reform Bill.
The day these twats return to power will be a day too early."
"Scanning through the comments I see a sprinkling of ""aging population"" labor shortage"" type arguments. These were thrown around freely a few years ago to justify importing labor -- ""do the jobs that xxx are not prepared to do"", that sort of thing.
You can't talk about ""aging population"" and ""raising retirement age"" in the same breath.
I think the key to this was accidentally mentioned by another poster who said that ""you can't allow free immigration to a country with extensive social benefits from countries where there are none"" or words to that effect. Stands to reason, you'll overload the system - unless your real plan is to destroy the social benefits, in which case a crisis brought on by overload and insolvency is just what you need. (..and judging from your government's statements, just what you're going to get)."
"FFS CiF posters are you all as thick as Ed Balls seems to be.
It's got nothing to so with Labour, new or otherwise, Ed Balls, Colemanballs, Footballs or Loadaballs how many Poles etc come into the UK to work. They are allowed to because we -- and they -- are in the EU. If you wanna introduce quotas on emplyoees coming into the UK then we're gonna have to leave the EU in order to do so. It's the (EU) law, stupid!"
"Turkey should NOT join the EU until they get rid of their law against 'insulting Turkishness' which means that you get thrown in prison for mentioning the Armenian Genocide, which they should also recognise before they are allowed in. In addition to other human rights abuses in that country.
But then I also abhore the fact that Latvia and Estonia were allowed in, considering their treatment of ethnic Russians living there, or the Czech Republic, as Romany people from there have been able to successfully claim asylum in Canada - how can a country in the EU be a place that refugees need to flee from?"
"Here's a little fact that xenophobes such as Mr Balls deliberately ignore: EU citizens from Central/Eastern Europe are NOT ""immigrants"". As EU citizens they are entitled to live anywhere they want in the EU, just as Brits. Yes, there are restrictions for Romanians and Bulgarians, but that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd rather than with any serious economic reasons; the restrictions only favor undeclared work and tax evasion.
Now Mr Balls wants to make the discrimination against Romanians and Bulgarians permanent, and has the brazenness to call it an ""open and fair world"". His ""open and fair' world involves, as he explicitly put it, free movement of capital but not of labour, and a two-tier EU where Eastern Europeans would have second-class status.
It's sad that extreme chauvinism has crossed over from BNP/UKIP to the British mainstream, and that the Guardian would host such a piece of xenophobic trash. It seems that Eastern Europeans have become the perfect target for discrimination, scapegoating and racist hysteria in Western Europe. After all, they can't vote, they don't riot or blow themselves up if faced with harassment or discrimination, and they're technically ""white"", so xenophobes can always say ""they're white, so I'm not racist"", plus it's socially acceptable for non-white Brits to express racist sentiments against Eastern Europeans (as evidenced by some, thankfully isolated, comments here)."
Auf Wiedersehen, pet! anyone? Was based on fact you know: Brits doing low-paid labouring jobs in another EU country
A few went. I don't think it was 900,000.
"Bien pensant? Have you ever read what I used to write on the subject of fundamentalist Islam and jihadism and more recently, on the difficulties that poorly- regulated multiculturalism presents to all of us? You call me ""Mr Know it all"" then agree with my point in the sentence beginning ""In any case"". I don't argue that the Turks themselves are European as much as that the Europeans come from Asia (and ultimately, from Africa)- just a different area than the Turks. We didn't spring forth one day from the loins of Japheth as the Bible would have you believe.
Iraq and Arabia have always been more remote from Europe than ""Asia Minor"", Islam or no Islam, Byzantine Empire or not. That's because of geography. As for Syria, for obvious reasons such as its remoteness, desert location and proximity to Mesopotamia, it wasn't Hellenized to the same extent as Asia Minor. Mesopotamia was the centre of an empire in its time as great as Persia or the Moguls. The Greeks considered the Romans squabbling barbarians, while the Romans envied the Greeks for their cultural advancement and book learning. The Romans were also much keener on plain facts than understanding the whole of the subject and their Emperors were mostly perverts, proto-Hitlers or far more interested in being generals than rulers."
"The idiocy of this piece by Balls, is only matched by the idiocy as demonstrated by a large amount of posters.
Its pretty clear going by the comments most voted for, that the majority of CIF posters possess the 'i'm alright jack' mentality, akin to that of Dailey Mail readers. The joys of hipocrisy.
It's rather ironic that the position taken by most posters, is just as Neo-con as the policies as pursued by our former New Labour Government.
When Brown said 'British jobs for British workers', what he really should have said was 'Middle Class jobs for Middle Class workers'. This is the fact of the matter.
Given the Tories plans for education, most posters can sleep happily in the knowledge that their professions will remain as socially exclusive as ever. Everyone else can continue in their enforced economic race to the bottom."
Shame you didn't have this revelation in government. Funny that.
Perhaps some of the so called 'progressives' on here can explain exactly why they believe controlling immigration is a bad thing? I just cannot understand how global or domestic 'progress' is served by shipping millions of people across the world
bifacedog, as I said earlier, EU citizens are not "immigrants". I guess this needs to be repeated over and over again.
"_AT_northerner ""workforce (what a fantastic Derby winner, by the way!) ""
Absolut, gammle gosse!
Sorry about the Swedish - as it's an immigration thread, I thought I'd strike first and avoid the ""kleine Englander"" taunt."
"Yeah, British jobs for British people... kick those cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres and bring back the good auld Brit oxbridge grad to do those seek after jobs.
Actually i understand any polish or chinese burger patty fliping immigrant better then any cockey ladden eastsider.
and i don t mind my plumber to be incapable or late as long he speaks at least scouse in its purest beautyful fashion"
"Really disappointing to see Labour lurch further to the right. Does Balls really think if they had been more like the Tories they’d have won? Their supporters would not have deserted them if they had had the Balls to stand by their principles and said ‘immigration benefits Britain’
Labour could be such a force if they just weren’t so spineless"
I'm confused. When America tries to control the decades long flood of unskilled immigrants into its country its racism incarnate. However, when the British do it, its some kind of appropriate response to ensure the protection of Britain's most vulnerable citizens. How much larger is the EU's population in comparison to the USA? How much larger is the population of Mexico in comparison to the members of the EU? Answer: only Deutschland has a larger population than Mexico's. Putting Mexico aside and its positional privilege, what about the rest of the planet's countries that dump their populations on the USA? Why does the USA have more Jamaican illegal immigrants than Britain has legal ones? It's your frickin' colony. Bullocks, Mr. Balls. This is nothing but an attempt to ensure that Britain never becomes as dark as America is today.
"Awful ignorance for somebody aiming at leading to the Labour Party.
1) 'next year when Germany and France lift their restrictions': France has lifted them in 2008! Only Austria and Germany still apply restrictions, until the deadline of next year - but instead of avoiding immigration, they have been flooded by bogus self-employed and posted workers from eastern european companies - something which is socially much more disruptive than legal, regular immigration.
2) WHere's the evidence for negative effects on wages or living conditions? Could you please mention one, at least one figure or study??? Immigrants (85% of whom are young, fit and in employment) from eastern europe pay in in tax much more then they take out in benefits or any public service.
3) How about policies? the only way to prevent negative effects in wages is strengthening collective bargaining, worker rights, and tackling dodgy work agencies. Don't blame the migrants for the policy failures of New Labour.
Really depressing."
"Yes - you messed it up! Under Labour, thousands were deported to their deaths. Children were imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands worked for a pittance. Above all you failed to explain and defend. You played to the gallery and failed to harness the massive amount of goodwill there is in the country. You failed to engage those who were trapped in the benefit system and would not work thereby creating opportunities for others to work. You wanted the cheap labour and profited from it but were not willing to shoulder your responsibilities for the advantages.
If it was such a mistake for Eastern Europeans to come why are you not shouting about Spanish, Irish, Portuguese and Greek immigration which is happening now as a result of the crisis in the Euro-zone?
You need to face up to one basic fact. Someone coming here from an EU state is a citizen exerting their right not a migrant. That means the Brits in France and Spain in retirement and those making a packet in the German construction industry are also Citizens exerting their rights. Why don't you ever say that Brits abroad send more back in remittances than migrants working in the UK.
Wake up and be honest about immigration and don't slide further into your intellectual bunker on this subject."
"_AT_Bakersfield 6 Jun 2010, 2:54PM
Absolutley agree on the immigration side. On poverty, I believe we have all we need in thic country for no family to be ""poor"" as you note above; where it does happen is down to crap local services &/or families who don't give a fuck.
My ex worked in the DWP in Bristol, serving Southmead & Lawrence Weston; when she left, the third generation in familes that had not, would not, COULD not work were just signing on.
Poor by choice. Even then, all those you mention above will have TVs, and often a car.
I rest by what I stated. And what a damning condemnation of Labour the figure you note is."
"Whomever you were responding to SZ, I suspect that they either don't know, don't care or have chosen to ignore the localised immigration policies* that are specifically constructed and applied to those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale while the complex problems regarding the exploitation of immigration as a source of cheap labour and the impact on the economy, remain unattended.
* http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/ewco/studies/tn0807038s/de0807039q.htm"
"If I wanted a Tory policy of dog-whistles on immigration and petty-nationalist grandstanding on Europe, I would vote Tory.
I don't vote Tory."
"stevejones

Deliberate policy. Personal debt which was ramped up to an extraordinary extent now exceeds GDP, the overwhelming majority of that personal debt relates to mortgage loan.
Without a severe housing shortage(made worse by immigration) then how could Nulab's grisly spiv mates in the City have scammed the population as comprehensively as they did?
In any event, as Cleggie said the other day, Nulab's belated ""promises"" made when they came under pressure over housing were made with no budgets attached; completely worthless"
"Lets see you (Ed Balls) drive a bus, pick asparagus, or wipe an elderly persons arse for a living!
How would you like it if these were the only kinds of jobs available to you, just as they are to Eastern Europeans?"
Yeah but Ed, those East european birds are well fit - I for one welome them with open arms.
"ariksilverman

If it means having to put up with the 'expats' (why cant the call themselves what they are, immigrants) again this would be a bad idea. I'd much rather have the Poles living near me than those cretins."
"hugsandpuppies
6 Jun 2010, 5:51PM

They're ok, but they've got flat bums though!
(the majority anyway)"
"_AT_ Burgau205
Thanks for the patronizing response, but unless you can refute what Ros Altmann says here, don't bother."
"I recently checked the housing list of people applying for housing or a transfer.
Every flat or house vacant had at least 300 applicants.
So housing shortage is back as critical as it was in the 80's.
Then we have approx 2.5 million unemployed.
So how can we encourage mass immigration with no jobs or homes to offer?"
"only ... BNP supporters ...deny that our ...IT industries depend on immigration" ... .... *BALLS* !!!!!! There are thousands of British comp-sci grads who are out of work because they have been displaced by cheap "onshorers" from India, and the primary reason to bring in boatloads of onshorers is to subvert British employment law! This is ILLEGAL, widely recognized by anyone in IT, and has nothing to do with the BNP. Recently, British comp-sci grads were dead last in their chances of finding a decent job upon graduation. In technical skills, our grads are the best anywhere - but they are replaced by onshorers simply to illegally get around U.K. employment law.
"Hell's Teeth. This sort of racism got people thrown out of the Labour Party once upon a time, not it's a platform to stand as leader.
Never been happier to not be a member these days."
"_AT_Chadwick88

The last acceptable form of bigotry?
You could at least make a polite effort to conceal your irrational hatred by sticking the word some in front of the word Islamic. Trust me, that's the way to tap into the petty bourgeois support base your ilk so desperately crave - they prefer there racism sugar-coated a little."
"true that Germany didn t lift their ban just now but they got flodded by immigrants way earlier then britain an d there even is a dishonoured former german advocat which resides now in poland in order to hand out passports to polish folks.
If u re able to proof u re of German ancestry (most of the polish in western poland are anyways since this part was german/prussian till after war) u re entitled to get a german passport and move to germany take up work without a word german and gain access to social welfare. Nice thing me thinks"
"LinearBandKeramik
6 Jun 2010, 6:41PM

I wouldn't say it was bigotry, as the first two points are pretty much fact.
As for the point about 'participating in the economy', well that is debatable, as simply by being here, it's impossible not to be interlocked with the economy."
"I would really like Balls to explain how a peripheral islet off the shores of Europe could possibly construed in anyone's mind as ""heart of Europe"".
If Britain were really to be its heart, Europe -- which stretches all the way to Kazakhstan -- would have to include Canada all the way to Toronto at the very least."
"According to a report from the UCL in March 2007 ""Immigration to the UK has made a positive contribution to the average wage increase experienced by non-immigrant workers"", which is pretty brilliant. Prof. Christian Dustmann of UCL’s Department of Economics said: “Economic theory shows us that immigration can provide a net boost to wages if there is a difference in the skills offered by native and immigrant workers."" So far, so good. A very positive report. But, oh dear, what's this ""However, across the whole spectrum of wages it is impossible for everybody to benefit. Some workers will see a gain, others a loss.” Oh, shit. The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay
Maybe those unskilled, low-paid workers could form a political party to campaign for their rights. As they are engaged in manual labour they could call it the...erm. What should we call this party?
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration"
Shame on you, blaming them foreigners for all our problems. Lazy, lazy, lazy, lzy bigot. If you're elected labour leader, I absolutely will not be voting labour, I am sick of hearing about immigration, and was relieved that it didn't seem to be a big election issue. Go away.
"Was it not a deliberate policy to flood our country with immigrants for future vote bank?
Have you addressed the issue about non EEC immigration? You were part of a government which knew perfectly well as far back as 2003 that the so called Highly Skilled Migrants were carrying out jobs such as mini cab drivers, filling shelfs in Tesco, Sainsburys etc.Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught? The pervious government has openly admitted that 55 year old grand mothers have been granted student visas to study''MBA'!
One could go on and on! Enough said"
I have been of the opinion for years that it is utterly wrong to allow people to stream into Britain unchecked - in other countries such as Switzerland, foreigners if unskilled used to only be able to apply for short term work permits and those who did have a skill got longer term permits but.... these people had to abide by the law of the land. In Britain it seems that the incomers do not need to change - in fact the British are more like the second class citizens. I doubt whether the top 5% are affected by the mass influx, they are not in the same dog fight for jobs and accommodation. I am utterly sick and tired of going to my local supermarket and hearing more Eastern European tongues than Engllish, I find it sad that workers are being imported to work in these supermarkets (surely we have enough home grown candidates), I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free (maybe I have just imagined paying into it for donkeys years) and I will be eternally grateful to whoever does something to get Britain British again.
"Good evening Ladies, Gentlemen,
Pardon my french, but Balls should go get nuttered to a vet when speaking like that about Europeans. White East Europeans, just in case he didn't get it.
Happy nuttering, Balls dude."
"Indeed...my own nightmares. Some were saying that Labour were trying so desperately to lose the election this was the probable cause. When the polls kept them pegged at 30% no matter what shit they came up with they had to dig deep...bigotgate etc.

Despite what she writes there perhaps you'd like to read more of her comments on the link below where she specifiaclly states that before 1997 the UK's pension schemes were in a good state and the envy of others. I remember the late 90s saying to friends that the Euros wanted our pensions (The UK funds were greater than most of the rest of Europe's PUT TOGETHER)
http://www.rosaltmann.com/ssp_end_of_final_salary_jan09.htm"
"""Remembering Evan Davies' programme for the BBC, 'The day the immigrants left' threw up a vivid picture of a workshy British workforce unwilling to do the jobs the immigrants were doing""
A work of pure fiction .Just what you would expect from the BBC."
In the last census my town had a population i the 18000 mark. I read a document just last week by the local east riding of yorks council sayig that we now have 3000 migrants living i this town. How are we expected to cope with schools, houses, jobs hospitals, dentists etc with this amount of non english speaking people (I have to be careful what I say). Now Balls tells us that labour has been wrong to allow in so many. - I think I have just proved it. Whatever will happen when turkey joins the EU - I think it will be a case of God help us all.
"_AT_therealrodhull

Chadwick88 is making his claim about Islamic immigrants without nuance or qualification. I agree that some Islamic immigrants do not respect the culture of the UK and do not wish to integrate - but that is not what Chadwick88 said. He/she/it made it clear that all Islamic immigrants should be tarred with the same brush. That is the very definition of bigotry."
"_AT_shirleyr

Earthquakes, hurricanes, nuclear disasters - and then I fully expect the sky will fall in on top of us."
"Ed Balls
I have news for you. What matters to the UK electorate is growth per capita and how it is shared rather than total growth. However, corporations are only interested in having more customers and hence bigger profits. The rest are left with lower wages and bigger traffic jams.
You come off as a corporate lackey."
Why now Ed, why not when you wee in power? You've made a balls of that!
"jonathb - you are absolutely correct. The IT industry in this country is being decimated. Companies are either outsourcing work to the Indian sub-continent or else they are bringing in cheap ""onshorers"" as you state.
Companies over here go into partnership with companies in India, and what happens next? Surprise surprise - British workers (of all colours/ethnic origins) and ALL skill levels are made redundant whilst all 'vacancies' are filled by internal company transfers using the staff from the sub-continent.
These company transfers never work the other way around. Funny that.
Are (or were) these companies in any danger of going under? Making losses? Not on your Nelly. Get rid of 70% of British staff, replace them with cheaper drones and watch the profits rise even higher. That is the attitude of these companies. The remaining Brit workers are left to deal with the problems that the drones cannot cope with - i.e. anything that requires lateral thinking and not following a script.
The fact that key members of Labour, even now do not 'get' this is an absolute joke. They should have stopped wasting money on 'focus' groups and instead of sticking to fancy dinners with company directors, they should have met workers at ALL levels and also gone round knocking on a few doors."
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Appalling stuff. Can't believe that Balls has the ignorance to produce such visceral bear-baiting populism. Scapegoating unfortunates from Eastern Europe who lived under repressive regimes in near intolerable conditions for this nation's ills? What total balls. Playing on prejudice and primitive fears rather than trying to explain the background and present the matter ethically is clearly too much for Ed. Is there really a place in Commons for someone with these views? What will be in the next Labour manifesto? Mosley's racist drivel presented as a profound social analysis?
"I read some of the above in disbelief. Ed Balls has had it as far as I'm concerned.
I am fed up of hearing these foreigners say our health service here is free
Aha.i>
Personally, I am extremely thankful to the surgeon who operated on my appendix (in an NHS hospital) ..and who happened to be from Eastern Europe."
"tomedinburgh
6 Jun 2010, 1:21AM
""You don't hear many stories about crime ridden Polish ghettos,""
I can tell you a few and direct you to the problem."
"_AT_LtKilgore

What is ironic about this BBC programme and a lot of the ""leftwing"" rhetoric on this forum is that the white working-class of this country do not have the highest unemployment or benefit dependency rates (or levels of criminality). One community has ~50% economic activity for instance, but they get no stick at all. Presumably they are the deserving poor unlike us.
Ed Balls is full of it. He is just after votes. The issue is not one of race, it is one of the impact of large scale immigration over short time scales on competition for jobs and services.
As for the Poles, yes many are hard working, but a fair few are scroungers as well so stop with the over generalisations. My sister works for the Benefits Agency and she deals with lots of benefit applications from Poles. She told me only today that a favourite wheeze is to bring over partners from Poland just in time to have the baby here and then claim £500 in handouts."
"RE ""In retrospect, Britain should not have rejected transitional controls on migration from the first wave of new EU member states in 2004, which we were legally entitled to impose. As the GMB's Paul Kenny and others have pointed out, the failure of our government to get agreement to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse.""
I fail to see what is racist about this statement. If it is racist then it means that all EU countries (all but the UK, Ireland and one other) who imposed transitional controls are racist. It is the first time I have seen any Labour politician admit that failure to implement the agency workers directive made matters worse. It surely did, as I know hundreds, if not thousands, of them plus dozens of agencies and we all agree.
Another failure making matters worse was that of not adopting the European age discrimination directive.
These three failures put millions, not thousands, out of work permanently. I think if the writer were racist - as the leftwing fanatics posting here assert - he would be saying that Labour should have treated racial discrimination the same way it treated age discrimination.
Yet another failure was that of allowing IT workers inter company transfers. They are contract workers here and thousands are out of work so why do we need to accept more.
However, I don't think Ed Balls is in any position to advise the current government. I am not expecting much from the Tories because they have always favoured immigration to keep labour costs low. Furthermore, the Poles only work for a pittance here (and put people out of work) because their wages went a long way in Poland where they remitted them, and they also collected benefits. I have worked for 40 years, paying high taxation, but have never been eligible for any benefits. That maybe one area where the Tories will discourage immigration from the EU, by cutting these benefits and not before time."
"_AT_stewd
And what is the weekly rate for a UK contractor with a good knowledge of RPG IV? Too much. Good competent coders are in short supply at reasonable rates, and that is the main reason why companies in financial services are heading to Bangalore; or at a pinch Russia if middleware fro routers, etc is required."
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If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?
"The influx is not surprising, given that big business, which is the single most powerful economic force driving decisions around immigration, feels like it's left to 'pick up the pieces' because of the inadequate education of employees.
Not my words, but Sir Terry Leahy's (Tesco's CEO):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/tesco-boss-school-standards-too-low-1802231.html"
"They do. Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are full of Ukrainians doing the jobs that the locals don't want.
Now, I wonder who takes all the crappy jobs in Ukraine."
Bonkers. All politicians are bonkers.
"_AT_Dunnyboy

Thanks for the info. My head hurts. There must be a country at the end of the chain somewhere with shit loads of unpleasant jobs going begging but no ""hard working immigrants"" to come and do them - North Korea maybe?"
"Thank you for making my choice in the upcoming Labour leadership ballot so much easier. With one more candidate eliminated from my shortlist, it should soon not be too difficult to find the candidate who least offends my Labour values.
As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector, I can see someone who is talking out of his backside when I come across them.
Ironically, Balls and his department were my boss until recently. He made some sound decisions at the time but without the help and briefings from civil servants he seems to have taken leave of his senses."
According to his recent interview Ed Balls: 'Tony and Gordon never found a way to bring it together' he thought you reached Swindon from London via Euston, not Paddington. I think we can assume geography is not his specialist subject; now what that subject could be elludes me.
"_AT_Emma2001

If you believe that, you're a bigger fool than i thought."
"Just about right robi. That's it really, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong I am not against being part of the European Union but the idea that we have all prospered may have happened to you - along with the money you made from charging all of us with your expenses - but I have see little prosperity. My salary is lower now in real terms than it was ten years ago.
Now I wish you would just go away as I find your bullish attitude and lies and deceit far too much to bear."
"hoffwoff:
Your post: ""As one of those immigrants from the EU who is not undercutting wages but instead highly-qualified and earning a decent salary in a shortage profession in the public sector,....""
Why not tell us what the profession is because I did not see anybody fitting that category when I worked in the public sector. Most employees I saw had no specific training or profession (although they might have been educated) and just dreamt up crackpot ideas for spending taxpayers' money. Furthermore, I'm afraid payments out of taxes don't count."
The Labour Party used to stand for internationalism. It has now degenerated into "British jobs for British workers". I'm almost tempted to support Dianne Abbott, who at least seems to be standing out against this trend.
"_AT_alanpav
Suggest you google Dianne Abbott and Finnish nurses.
I want a labour party that prioritises the people who set it up and still fund it, via the trade unions. Internationalism can do one."
"So weak.
So what?"
"I think it is entirely foolish to think we will win back our freedoms from any of the parties in Parliament.
Conservative, Liberal, and Labour are all right wing middle class parties and they really don't give a shit what happens as long as they all get our votes.
The ship is sinking and Parliament is just rearranging the deckchairs to suit themselves."
"ilovemisty:
""If East Europeans think immigration is so cool why don't they open their labour markets to the poorer countries to the East, say Turkey for instance?""
That's beside the point. Turkey is not in the EU. Immigration is one thing, labor mobility within the EU is an altogether different issue. What Balls is essentially saying is that Eastern Europeans should be permanently relegated to second-class EU citizenship status. He wants one set of rules for the Brits and other Western Europeans, and an altogether different set of rules for Eastern Europeans. If that's not crazy and racist, I don't know what is.
What some ""working class"" Brits fail to understand is that non-British workers (both immigrants and Eastern European workers, again, different categories) put a lot more into the British welfare state than get out of. The average BNP voter enjoys benefits subsidized by Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian workers, oh the irony."
"Ed ... If your exclusive private school education taught you to speak your mind, as with Iraq, why did you not speak out? You can't retrofit excuses and policy positions.
I'm sure you are pro-Europe, it is where you all make your money nowadays.
And if you really believe it is a platform for free trade, get on and persuade the bastards to end agricultural subsidies which prevent the 3rd world from competing.
This is very conveniently written. You sound like you've been working closely with Campbell. I think the decent people left in your party want a change of course.
I pray to God we never have a Prime Minister who won't pay for a poppy out of his own richly lined pocket."
"""that has to do purely with pandering to the Daily Mail crowd""
It's amazing -- people keep accusing him of things like this, but lets be honest here, if he was pandering, we'd have reintroduced hanging and been allowed to throw away anything we wanted without someone checking it. I really don't see the vast right-wing agenda happening. I see a massive state that measures your car and taxes you on exactly how many inches long it is, and who writes tax rules that say things like ""we won't tell you if you fit in this category, but if you decide you do, you owe us more tax and if we decide later you did then you'll owe us tax AND fines so you'll just have to guess correctly"".
If you think this was pandering to right wing views, then you probably have to understand that he's also as close to your socialist views as he's ever likely to get as well...."
"_AT_Crimethink

Yes it is the point. East Europeans are in favour of immigration because they are immigrants to richer countries in the West. They benefit from it because they can earn much more here for the same effort than they can in their own countries. Which EU country will pay me two times the rate for the job I do here in the UK? When they have as many immigrants as we do here they can lecture us about racism.
This working-class Brit has dealt with thousands of various types of immigration case files. Yes many are hard working and law abiding and a positive benefit, but a substantial number are economic drains. Even when some immigrants come here and work hard, the fact that they have partners who don't work and often have several children. This means they recieve more in public services than they contribute in tax and NI (for example a man working as a security guard with three dependents).
By the way, I have two jobs (as do most of the Brits I work with), don't vote BNP, don't oppose all immigration and know for an absolute fact I am subsidising the benefits, education and tax credits of quite a few immigrants to this country, including a fair few East Europeans (child allowance for example), and their maternity handouts for pregnant partners who turn up here just in time to give birth and collect their £500."
"Ah, Mr Balls. Mr Balls.
You say:
The stark differences between our economy and the rest in housing, finance and trade were too much for Britain to bear with no interest rate or exchange rate flexibility.
Oooh ho ho ho just what are you saying darling !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"What a strange lot the left are. They say immigration controls are racist so my assumption is that - moving away from the protest point to make themselves feel that little bit better about their progressive credentials - if the left were in government would they advocate that anyone who wanted to should come to the UK?
I only say this as I am trying to tease out the policy debate here. It is simply not good enough to say 'My policy is that Ed Balls is racist' if you claim to be a credible political movement. Or are we back to every other left wing position on every other policy
""No Nukes"" ""Stop Polluting"" ""Free Palestine"" ""We Love Iran""
All just a meaningless set of slogans which do not present a policy position.
I ask again - what is the left wing policy position on immigration?"
Ed, you are a sad populist.
By the way a policy is a set of statements that justify a set of actions. An action is generally an instruction given to the state to implement.
".
As if to prove my point...."
"Dogstarscribe
Ros used to be in the office below me and in this case I entirely agree with her.
Why do you feel that this is inconsistent with my response to your misunderstanding of DB rules?"
Hi Ed, you.ve probably been asked already, but could you provide some links to the articles where you acknowledged this problem - if it is a problem - in 2004 or at any time before June 2010?
"jonathb in the area of IT and the migrant workforce, contradiction seems to be running riot.

* http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/17/ibm_borders/
IBM's (quick view) own approach to the migrant workforce.
From IBM's own inhouse pages on it own appraoch to outsourcing.

It appears when it comes to profit, IBM runs with the hound and the hare."
ilovemisty, what part of "Turkey is not part of the EU" did you not understand? And what part of "Eastern Europeans are not immigrants"? EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. What the restrictions that Balls defends do is that they make sure certain categories of EU citizens (Romanians, Bulgarians) do not have the same rights as others. Wouldn't you agree that it's racist to support discrimination based on ethnicity and nationality? Is there any non-racist argument for a two-tier EU citizenship system?
"crimethink:
Your post"" EU citizens are ENTITLED to live anywhere in the EU, just as a British citizen is entitled to live anywhere in Britain. ""
What are you talking about? You mean EU citizens who come here without any money or training for any specific job are entitled to be provided with a house and benefits such as schooling, healthcare, unemployment benefit, child benefit, tax credits, and a job? And who do you think ought to be paying for all this? And how do you think it can be provided when many are homeless and there are queues for treatment? Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic feet. It is no comfort to me that people can arrive one day and get treatment the next.
You are quite wrong. A British citizen as an EU citizen is not entitled to go to any country and receive these benefits. If I wanted to go to France, for instance, I would not be entitled to anything and would not expect the French state to provide it."
Erm yes, but it's a tad late to do anything about it now isnt it.
"Ed Balls(up) states the bleeding obvious. But then, Neues Arbeit ZaNu-Lab were deaf, dumb and blind to what everyone else knew.
Maybe it was all part of the Teflon B'Liar, Puff-Daddy McLoon, Mandelpratt and their Marxist Fellow Travelers to bugger up UK society for a generation. Well, they certainly have succeed in financial terms to bugger up everyone's future here in the UK.
Sod, the sodding sodding lot 'o em. I hope they turn themselves inside out by stuffing themselves up their collective ring-pieces and listen to their own collective sh*t.... because that is all they are good for....... Like the insides of Father Jack's dirty linen basket........
'Chocolate Fireguards' and 'Teapots' come to mind....."
"""mustspeak
I won't comment on the immigration issue directly, but as regards the test for immigrants to speak English: how about first making sure first that the English speak it correctly? How often, for instance, have all of us seen the word ""Their"" (as in belonging to them) spelled as ""There"" and vice versa? I have even seen this from writers in computer and astronomical magazines!!""
That is grossly unfair, again and again the left made sure the working classes suffered a 'comprehensive' education.
I have a B. Sc., M. Sc. and a Ph. D., I also have a C.S.E. Grade 3 in English. Thank you Anthony 'rich fucking publicly educated' Crosland and Shirley 'rich fucking publicly educated' Williams."
"Too late, ten years too late. One of the aims of the EU is to raise the economic level of all member countries -unfortunately we are not encouraging prosperous countries into the EU [such as Norway], but poverty stricken, 19th century, economies post communism. This is not a good time.
How is it that so many come via Germany, France etc to UK? There must be policies, permited by EU law that restrict other EU nationals? ""New Labour's"" aspirational supporters - the small employers, market gardens and large retail chains - would suffer at first as they lose their cheap labour -but along with raising the minimum wage - and prices, British workers would be employed in their place at a decent wage."
"Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish. EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either.
Where does your information come from - the Socialist Worker?
I am still waiting for Hoffwoff to tell me what esteemed professional job he is doing in the public sector that none of the eight million Brits could have done. Let me guess, Domestic Violence Co-ordinator, Allotments Adviser, Adviser the Quangos name committee. Personally, I have been waiting 35 years for treatment to my arthritic fee and I have paid taxes for 40 years so why am I waiting when all these people are treated immediately. What evidence do you have that BNP voters put less into the economy than newly arrived immigrants and are supported by immigrants. Your post really is a disgrace."
"These half-wits in Labour are just trying so hard to outdo right-wing parties, as creepy as it looks, they are not even good at it.
What riles me, is the absolute cluelessness of labour leaders on so many issues including immigration.
I have been fortunate enough to work with eastern Europeans in some of Britain's bitterly cold, grubby, musty medieval food factories. As someone used to working in some of the most gritty, physically draining, sweaty, sometimes humiliating jobs, I found the eastern europeans mainly the polish a marvel to work with! These guys are the most hard working people I've ever seen, their work rate and strength is something that the cowards who berate and denigrate immigrants from eastern europe needs to witness. When I worked for a few food companies, we used to joke that the polish could mix bread roll flour faster than it takes a ferrari to guzzle up a mile.
It was an honour to work alongside these eastern europeans at a time many food factories should have been closing shop because every damn loser in this country would rather sign on and wait for the giro every friday than work in them.
The current wave of immigrant bashing which has become very appealing to every politician seeking quick, cheap relevance is unfair and in bad taste. Afterall if the government had done their bit, immigration would have been better managed...
NHS in massive recruitment drive in India for junior doctors.
Is this not an indication that some aspects of tighter laws on immigration is hurting the UK more than immigrants?
Police kills two pedestrians in Luton believed to be foreign nationals.
If the shoe had been on the other foot, there would have been an uproar, 'deport the lawless foreigners', 'they are pure scum' and stuff like that...
Is the UK fast sliding into the ranks of extreme xenophobia?"
"I don't know about Canada's asylum laws, but a white South African successfully claimed asylum in Canada due to persecution for his race.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6818096.ece"
_AT_ OrangeHeart I will second that. Having worked for the last two years in lots of shit agency minimum-wage "jobs", I have been impressed with the humour and application shown by my Eastern European colleagues.
"efmcandrew
Crimethink:
Your post 11.20 is utter rubbish.
""EU citizens are not entitled to live anywhere. For a start, Eastern Europeans can't go to most countries including France and Germany. They are not entitled to come here without money and demand housing and jobs and medical treatment and benefits - we are borrowing the money to pay them. If we do not borrow the money, how can demand entitlement?
British citizens are not entitled to go to other EU countries and demand likewise either"".
Er no. Total bollocks. Was in a small village in France only the other day and there were loads of Polish and Hungarian trademen in the bar for the post-work apero. British citizens are local councillors and even Mayors of communes in France and a British citizen can be a candidate for the European Parliament anywhere in Europe.
I don't think Crimethink's sources are to be found in the austere pages of the Socialist Worker, rather the ""Free Movement of Capital and Labour"", within the European Union.....etc.
But don't let details like blinding reality get in the way of an ignorant rant eh?"
"Appalling. Utterly appalling.
The people I have met from Eastern Europe have been courteous, fun, enlivening and an asset to the community. I dont give a monkeys nuts for their economic input, so don't use that as some kind of 'natural law' as demanded by Mammon to let you off the hook you wish to wriggle on.
So why was it a mistake? Because it cost you votes from bigots?
You're all the bloody same you lot. Shape-shifters and shifty when it comes to the need for votes. Disgraceful."
"I look forward to the day, obviously now not far off, when skilled British craftsmen are looking for employment on building sites in Warsaw, Sophia and Vilnius.
Watch this cheapskate politics come back and bite you Balls."
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"What are Shadow children?
Ah - thats right - they're the children in detention at Yarls Wood.
Guess shadow education, is what they get . All they get."
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"Wow...I find the title of this article absolutely amazing.
Why would a politician so blatantly single out one group of immigrants. In America, if a democratic politician were to write an op ed saying ""we made a mistake in letting in too many hispanics"" it would go without saying this person's career in public life was finished. They would be publicly crucified."
Labour was wrong about almost everything. The economy is in ruins, we are embroiled in disastrous foreign military adventures, civil rights were denied as never before, corruption was rife in parliament...everything about the Labour Party's 13 years of misrule was incompetent, nasty, arrogant and harmful. Mr Balls is a member of a disgraced and disgraceful organisation widely despised by the population.
"Orangeheart

LOL
What a serf"
"stevehill
6 Jun 2010, 2:48PM

Very good points all.
I've recently been banned from Comments by the wife because she says it puts me in a bad mood, so I had to be very quick knocking out that message.
Some might add 24 hour licensing, renewing trident....etc...."
Interesting - noy a single person answered my earlier question
"bazzartii

.
Has it ever occured to you that if cheapstake employers did not have access to an unlimited pool of cheap labour they would have to pay people at the bottom of the heap here more, and treat them with a bit of respect for a change?
True there would be less of the grotesque income inequality, less money for the directors, less money swirling round the City trough for them to gamble away; but that might be considered a price well worth paying
BTW

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpaper/document/41
I seem to remember Broon lying about this"
"Ed,your government borrowed a load of dough and imported a load of people to build a load of flats for a load of other people that wouldn't have been here in the first place if you hadn't imported them,What for?A miniscule increase in per capita GDP?A fantasy that it would prop up pension ponzi schemes?Perhaps you just like concrete,glass and cheap bricks?I know lads that couldn't get near those building sites,lads with families to feed,what should they have done?Gone to work in Spain and not seen their kids for months on end?
""Free movement of labour?""
Anyone that was displaced during your tenure might just call it ""forced movement of labour."""
"PM will warn today that Britain's 'whole way of life' will be disrupted for years by spending cuts--
I wonder how many capable Brit bods will now be seeking a more secure future overseas ?
Will elderly and infirm people be cast aside for the vultures to chew on?"
"It's quite disappointing to see the contempt that so many so-called socialists seem to have for unskilled manual workers. Amongst many there does appear to be an attitude that they are workshy, racist scum who deserve to lose their jobs or have their wages cut. They would probably vote BNP in any case.
I too spent many years in the 1980s working in food processing factories in Norfolk, packing bacon, picking strawberries and slaughtering and packing chickens - it was some of the lowest paid factory work in Britain, a lot of it was cash in hand, unions were virtually unknown, and temporary contracts were more common than permanent ones.
So don't give me any of that old bollocks about the English being workshy scum - they are just as hard working as any other people, despite what any loaded BBC documentary might say.
The lowest paid, most vulnerable workers need the protection of permanent contracts, a minimum wage that is more than a slave wage, and equal pay and conditions for all workers."
Pretty revolting and therefore wholly in character. This is encouraging "safe" bigotry: it is entirely PC to criticise Poles because theye are white and Christian. And of course they actually work. can't have that sort of thing, can we?
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"""Third, I support the political and economic case for EU enlargement to Turkey.""
I believe, in relation to the Turkish threat, Metternich said ""East of Vienna the Orient begins.""
A wiser man than you Ed."
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llovemisty - Prioritise the people who set up the Labour party? They're all dead! I'm all for trade unions, but they must not degenerate into protectionism, which was the curse of the 1930s slump. Let's have freedom of movement for working people, as far as is practically possible.
heck, thats not going to get you voted in as the new Labour leader - would you accept shadow home sec? you will, ok right..!
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All you need to know about Ed Balls and what he thinks of British people.
"I'm afraid I don't believe anything this man says, or anything his party has to say about immigration. When a statement such as this below states.

You just know this is absolute rubbish. If Ed Balls was to venture into a local job agency and have a chat with the staff there and ask them what the true picture is, he would be informed that these ""hard-working migrants"" come here for a few months, take the jobs of the indigenous British then go back to their own countries and claim back all the tax they have paid to the British government whilst working here. Then they come back the following year and do the same thing over again.
But then this type of deception is nothing new from Labour or it's politicians. One smidgin of truth though

I take it Ed Balls never bothers to go and ask his constituents opinions on this matter, and just takes it for granted that they will acquiesce to this. Oh the joys of millions of anatolian peasants and Kurds escaping the poverty of eastern Turkey descending upon our job centres. Incidentally when does this European project become a Eurasian project, as the boundaries of Europe would then include Iraq, Syria, Iran? What happens if the Kurds from those regions decide to reside in Turkey, and the Turks grant them passports in order to get rid of them knowing that they will come to Britain, and they too decide to decamp to north London or other metropolitan regions of the UK. Have you thought about that Ed? No I didn't think so. But then when have these gullible politicians thought anything through when it concerns the true interests of the people of this country.

No chance of explaining why you consider it to be flawed then?

The world doesn't care about Britain, heart of Europe or not. How much longer do we have to swallow this so called ""axiom.""? Britain may need to be in Europe and Europe may benefit from our being part of the EU, (especially as they export more to us than we export to them) but please spare us these axiomatic cliches.
No I'm sorry you and your party have had your time, and you have fouled up dreadfully. All the benefits of your tenure in office, i.e. The minimum wage, and er, er, well that's about it really, I would like to add the improvements to the NHS to the glorious achievement of executing a wage hike, but unfotunately it looks as though the improvements to the NHS still have to be paid for, and we're going to have to make cutbacks. So it's goodbye Ed take your pals with you, close the door and don't come back again ever."
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This article is utterly dishonest. Balls knows perfectly well that a country cannot restrict EU freedom of movement and stay in the EU. Why doesn't he just join UKIP?
Absolute, sensationalist tosh. Doed this man really think he is capable of leading a political party when he come out with statements like this?
"Lets just allow as many unskilled workers to come here as want to. Hell we can find them housing; no shortage of affordable housing here. As for the millions of UK people on unemployment benefit; they are just a lazy bunch who won't work long hours for wages the rest us would think is a weekend's spending money. The rest of us really don't mind paying for them to vegetate in their hellish estates. It's great seeing businesses thrive on paying workers low wages. I'm kind of alright though, because I'm in a well-paid job. It's just the majority fighting it out for a living wage, housing, school places, decent health etc. I've got private medical insurance so I'm alright jack!
I bet all the people here yelling racism are not residents of huge estates where most people are unemployed and have been for years. They are not competing for low paid jobs and social housing with unskilled immigrants. I am sick of the privileged (yes you are if you aren't them) thinking themselves morally superior to everyone else because they are not 'racist'. Well here's news, it's not racist to object to uncontrolled immigration of unskilled workers. We have far too many of our own that need help. Millions in fact. And by the way many of these British people are ethnic minorities. Is helping them racist?"
If you want to get serious about immigration reform, deport Simple Simon Cowell.
"Balls!
The good folk of Talin would no doubt look back and agree that, on balance, the economic 'plus' experienced when thousands of drunken Brits rampaged through the town on cheap hen/stag nights was simply not worth the 'negative' economic hangover, the raped and the pillaged, the destruction of peace and community.
Yet, being European, the good folk of Talin would have shown more respect and decency than that being displayed by a senior member of the opposition here today.
This is cheap, gutter press tactics and I for one am heartily sick of hearing this bilge.
We need a sea change of British Politics - and quick!"
"exiledubliner:

Farcical argument.
There were of course cherry pickers, asparagus and potatoe gatheres in the UK before we had mass immigration."
"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284568/British-jobs-migrant-workers-Figures-ridicule-Labours-employment-pledge.html
Balls chooses to focus on Eastern Europeans but there is a much more serious issue as regards migrants from outside the EU. The Daily Mail article is wrong in saying that EE migration on the scale that occured could not have been prevented of course - as in transitional arrangements.
Nulab - what a nasty neo-liberal disgrace."
"navyman

The Blair/Broon didn't even achieve that
Per capita GDP fell by £281 (2005-2009)"
"Sigh, the xenophobic commenters here (a minority, fortunately) seem to be immune to reason. I realize the 'for'ners come to the UK to get benefits"" line is just Daily Mail nonsense, but let's suppose it was true. Can somebody tell me whether Eastern Europeans are entitled to any ""special benefits"" that other EU citizens living in the UK (say, Brits, Germans, Italians) are not entitled to? If not, where's the problem?
Unrestricted labour movement means that there is a level playing field for everyone, all across Europe. On the other hand, restrictions on labour movement (which are against EU principles, but were enacted in various countries as ""exceptional"" and temporary measures) discriminate against specific nationalities, and have no practical effect, they just force people to work in crap conditions, not pay taxes, and get easily exploited by ruthless employers. These restrictions have close to zero effect on stopping actual movement of people, since there are plenty of legal loopholes. Germany is more of a police state than Britain, and, unlike Britain, they still have restrictions on Polish workers, yet there are considerably more Poles living in Germany than in the UK.
And to the person who asked whether British minorities who have a problem with European workers can be racist, the obvious answer is yes, of course, minorities can be racist too, just as I'm sure there are racists among Eastern Europeans as well. Minority status doesn't make one immune to prejudice. Just look at the US, where nativism and anti-immigrant xenophobia are rampant among African Americans, while conversely anti-black racism is rampant among Hispanic immigrants."
Most immigrants work hard ,it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. No MP dare say this obvious fact.
"What a load of tosh!
Ed, Labour has to stop with the 'we know what's best for you' syndrome and start to listen to the voters. Your writing is partisan and lacks any sort of sincerity at all: eg ""But neither our tough points system, nor the Tories' flawed immigration cap, applies to migration within the EU.""
You just can't bring yourself to say sorry can you? You can't admit that you were a bunch of incompetent cronies, can you? You can't bring yourself to admit that you had no backbone to stand up to Blair's illegal wars? You are living in a dream world because of your hubris.
You make me want to vomit. It will be a cold day in hell before Labour gets my vote again"
It's quite clear that Balls is playing up to reactionary types. But why on earth is he doing it in this paper? He should do it in the mail, while simultaneously writing a left wing piece in the Guardian. His two-facedness would quickly be exposed, but it wouldn't be as ridiculously stupid as this.
"So, very much like Britain then, where the government set a ridiculously low minimum wage and allowed agencies to employ foreign workers under worse conditions than local ones, thereby making them more attractive to employers.

Maybe they won't say it because they aren't bigots who swallow all the lies that employers and New Labour fed them.
Just a thought."
There they go, blaming foreigners.......
Had the title been: 'We were wrong to allow so many African Caribbeans or Pakistani people or etc. into Britain' ed balls would have been arrested by now for racism.... but it's obviously acceptable to be racist towards Eastern Europeans. I wonder if they have similar articles in Eastern Europe: 'We were wrong to allow Tesco, Co-op, BP, HSBC etc into Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia' and so on.
"Ed: it's not workers from further east in the EU that are the problem - as you very well know; at least you would know if you got your head out into the daylight!
As for Turkey joining the EU, which part of ""European"" do you not understand?"
"I don't believe anyone is saying anything against eastern europeans. They are like any other nationality including us. This is about the immigration of unskilled labour to a country which currently has millions unemployed and which also lacks affordable homes for everyone who currently lives here.
It doesn't matter where they are coming from if they don't have skills that we actually NEED then they are only adding to the many problems we already have in an overcrowded country. We don't have resources to deal with yet more people. There is nothing right-wing, racist, daily mail-ish whatever about that fact. This country is skint lets not taken on the responsibility of more unskilled people looking for work while thousands of young people in the UK struggle to find any job at all. That is the real tragedy and don't be so arrogant as to dismiss people's genuine concerns about what future they will have if immigration continues this way. And to everyone who says the British are lazy shame on you. It is hypocritical, inaccurate and ignorant."
I came to the UK from NZ to teach some years ago. I was horrified to find after I had been teaching here for some time that those such as I from the former colonies here by virtue of work permits have no labour rights whatsoever in this country. Our passports are stamped 'No recourse to public funds' and those of us with English parents or grandparents are regarded with considerable suspicion by border officials when we enter and leave this country. Australian, Canadian, New Zealand and South African teachers and other professionals working here on work permits have no union looking after our interests and may be dispensed with on the whim of someone in a senior position. Eventually winning the 'right to remain' and acheiving a senior teaching position, I have been constantly appalled at the numbers of migrants who have no or very little English, few skills any employer wants or needs and very needy children who are causing massive problems in state primary education which the know-it-all Mr Balls MUST have known about in his position in education. His attempts to 'blame it all on Brown' is self-serving claptrap and he is beneathe contempt. The UK needs a strong parliamentary opposition, but if Balls is elected Labour leader the Labour party will die, leaving a basically one-party state.
"Well what did you all expect? It's simply a load of Balls after all.
NuLabour = no moral compass whatsoever.
Pj."
"_AT_pc99 6 Jun 2010, 7:34PM
Wroking in factories. Is this saying something for education policies of successive governments (of both colours) that we as a country could not produce individuals who could fill sheves in Tescos, drive minicabs and work on assesmbly lines. Is this your definition of 'higly skilled'?
Ah your government has also know that 'students' comer over to study courses in colleges that are not equiped to teach, even if these 'colleges' could teach the students cannot understand or speak English. In which langiage were the stidents being thaught?
You tell me :-)"
"_AT_crimethink

There are lots of Turks in Germany, which as you point out is not in the EU. Nothing to stop the Poles openning up their labour markets to the Turks. After all, having all those hard working immigrants can only help the Polish economy can't it? No Pole would lose out would they? How do you think all the Poles who have gone back from the UK would feel if they had to compete with a ~million Turks?
I spent a fair amount of time issuing EEA residence cards so I am fully aware of Treaty Rights. I'm not attacking East Europeans for coming here and exercising these rights, I'm attacking the government (a Labour government at that) for not thinking through the consequences of essentially uncontrolled immigration over short time scales (they are immigrants to THIS country) for working-class people here. They are allowed to think of their own selfish interests are they not, just like the Poles, the middle-classes and ethnic minorities all do? When you open your borders to poorer countries, you are likely to have a net influx of low skilled labour, no?
What part of the fact that we have millions of unemployed, the economy is stuffed and that we are about to make tens of thousands of working-class civil servants unemployed (people who want to work and do work - including me quite possibly) do you not undrstand? The very last thing we need is an influx of more cheap labour from Eastern Europe at the moment. There is nothing racist in learning from past errors and adapting to changing circumstances. If the Romanians and Bulgarians don't like waiting till the economy improves to come here then I suggest they quit the European Union."
"I'm disappointed that there is no mention of the commonwealth here.
Commonwealth citizens have shown tremendous courage and loyalty to Britain over the past century or so, stood up for us in two world wars, manned the health service, driven the busses, etc., etc., etc. But now we're in Europe they've been forgotten about. We owe them a lot, and it's a shame that they're being overlooked in favour of people who, though they might live closer geographically, often have much more tenuous links to Britain.
I think it's also a shame that people from outside Europe have no automatic right of entry to Britain even if they are married to British citizens, while European nationals with no British relatives are allowed in and out freely, no questions asked.
It's a kind of racism - giving preferential treatment to people who are geographically close and doing it in such a way that people from further afield can't get in. But then again, I think that that's what Europe is about - it's a white club which has formed a cartel to pull an advantage over other parts of the world."
"_AT_alanpav

I want a Labour party which prioritises the working-class people of this country, the ones that overwhelmingly fund it. Not one with a fetish about Israel/Palestine, America and immigrants.
Lets have freedom of movement of working people in a regulated fashion, which takes into account the impact on low-skilled workers in the host country."
"_AT_Dunnyboy

If you are a working-class prole in the UK you must realise you have no right to serve your own interests. Even if you only question the scale or rate of immigration in non-racist terms, it still apparently means you have a garden shed load of Zyklon B you are just itching to use"
"_AT_kikichan
We have millions of people here either directly from the Commonwealth, or who their British born descendants. Indians, Jamaicans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc. All those countries wanted independence, they did not want to be British so why are you moaning now?
Unfortunately some of these communities have also engaged in large scale abuse of the immigration rules which is why the rules have been tightened (eg new rules on abuse of student visas, introducing visas for Jamaica etc).
As largely secular Europeans we also have much more culturally in common with Germans, French, Poles etc than many Commonwealth countries. For example, not obsessing over religion to the extent of perpetual offense, threatening violence or murdering people.
The EU exists to stop further conflict in Europe and to promote trade. Lots of ethnic and religious minorities exist in the EU, and have far more rights and are less subject to massacre than equivalents in the a fair bit of the Commonwealth (e.g India, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, South Africa...etc)."
Actually, they did. The (ironic) problem was that the votes were split over the Tories, BNP and UKIP : if all 3 were added together, Ed would have had the "portillo moment" predicted for him. That's why he's now trying to woo the supporters of the 2 smaller parties.
"ilovemisty, it's a bit disgusting that you persevere in your thinly veiled racist remarks. So if Romanians and Bulgarians don't like being discriminated against on the basis of their nationality they should ""quit the EU'? That's about as crass as saying black South Africans should have just emigrated if they objected to second-class status in the apartheid days.
Diverting the conversation again to immigration (an unrelated topic) and Turkey is just plain dishonest. As Turkey is not a member of the EU, Poland has no obligation to ""open its labour market"" to Turkey. However, Poland has zero restrictions for workers from the EU. EU citizens are entitled to equal rights across Europe. If you don't like how that works, you can start a petition to get out of the EU. I can't believe the blatant racism of Brits who want one set of rules for themselves (Balls openly claims that he wants Brits to continue to work unrestricted in places like Frankfurt, while Eastern Europeans shouldn't), and another set of rules for Eastern European EU citizens. This sot of hate-filled garbage could only resonate with paranoid Little Englanders with chips on both shoulders, afraid they'd lose their jobs to smarter, better educated, more adaptable Eastern Europeans."
"What do you mean by ""more adaptable""? Does it mean willing to work for less pay than local labourers or willing to work under worse conditions like temporary contracts or cash in hand?
If only the thick, racist little Englanders of Norfolk, Suffolk and Lincolnshire would learn to get by on less, they would be happy too. Their grandfathers learnt to adapt when they got booted off the farms by mechanisation, their fathers learnt to adapt when they got squeezed out of their villages and onto council estates in King's Lynn and Thetford because their landlords sold the houses they lived in as weekend retreats for the rich.
Life is all about learning to adapt - especially if you're a a poorly educated Little Englander.
The contempt that some people have for the labourer is just astonishing. I could understand it from a Tory or an employer, because that's their business, but when I hear it from people who claim to be Socialists, I have to stop and marvel at what has happened to the Labour Party since I left."
"Mr Ed Balls is being very cowardly in seeking soft scapegoats for what he considers to be the necessary self-criticism that the Labour Party must undergo to transform itself from a governing party to a ""listening"" party. Understandably this Labour leader hears the angry word ""immigration"" on the lips of his voters in Morley and Outwood and immediately he thinks ""Eastern Europeans"". ""In retrospect"" he thinks the decision in 2004 to lift transitional restrictions on the free movement of labour between the UK and Central (not ""Eastern"" !) European members states of the EU was wrong.
Well at the time it was not wrong. The input from hardworking Poles and other EU nationalities was highly beneficial to the growing pre-recession British economy and saved English and Scottish agriculture from extinction, as well as many service industries in this country. It gave the British economy that extra dynamism that made it soar ahead of the more sluggish and protective French and German economies.
What was wrong about the decision in 2004, as the Federation of Poles in Great Britain repeatedly reminded the government, was the blind lack of proper staistics on how many Central Europeans were arriving here, where were they finding work and settling and how this would impact on local services, including schools, social services, the police and the NHS. It was only trade union pressure that ensured that these workers were protected from exploitation by gangmasters in the agricultural and food production industries but had still failed to protect those working in hotels and on building sites.
Yes, these new workers would be making their positive impact on the British economy and contributing into the excheqeur through paying income tax, national insurance and council tax. The problems was that the benefits and costs of this would not be evenly distributed throughout the country. Large cities like London, Edinburgh and Birmingham could absorb these new arrivals relatively easily, but smaller country towns such as Peterborough, Boston, Crewe or Redditch would find themselves exposed to an unexpected drain on their financial resources and their social fabric and even large muti-ethnic centres such as Slough were finding it difficult to convince the central government about the prior need for extra resources because of futile arguments over the sheer number of those arriving. It was this blindness to the uneven demographic and social impact of Central Europeans on different local communities throughout the country which was the government's most serious error in the years following 2004, and NOT its decision to open the British labour market to this eager new EU workforce. This seemingly calculated lack of interest in the new statistics and new local needs made the existing population (whether black, white or brown) nervous about the new influx and the increased competition in the lower income bracket of the labour market, and it allowed the redtop press and extremist organisations to come up with their own statistics on arrivals, on crime, on benefits, which suited their specific anti-Labour, anti-immigration and anti-EU agenda and resulted in considerable inter-community tension, xenophobic hysteria and more recently, even racially motivated murder.
Mr Balls' belated change of heart will only increase that tension. Does he want this on his conscience?"
"""toothfairy
7 Jun 2010, 11:40AM
it is the many lazy indiginous Brits who seem afraid to work. ""
Please leave your racist generalisations in your living room!!"
"_AT_crimethink

Nothing I said was racist. I have no problems with East Europeans, I have a problem with the government for letting so many in in such a short time without proper planning.
No, this sort of sensible idea (learning from the Polish situation) resonates with people wondering if they will still have a roof over their heads in a few months time, knowing they will have to compete with people able and willing to work for less than they can afford to live on. It is not a level playing field or there would be a million working-class Brits in Eastern Europe. Again, name the EU country where Brits can earn several times the rate they get here in the UK. Frankfurt is in Germany last time I checked.
The Bulgarians and Romanians will just have to lump it, they are getting more out of the EU than they are paying in after all. If they don't like it that is just tough."
"Ilovemisty
7 Jun 2010, 3:51PM

That's not the point. The point is that _everyone_ should be treated according to merit where immigration is concerned, and not receive preferential treatment just because they're from Europe. There are many people in the commonwealth (and elsewhere) with stronger links to Britain than many Europeans. Look at the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians who have British grandparents. They have less right now to be in Britain than Europeans. Look at the Gurkhas (I know Nepal isn't in the commonwealth, but the same rule applies).
And we also _took_ a lot from those countries. Those countries are as they are largely because we made them so. We owe them. Big time.

That's a blanket statement. I haven't noticed many West Indians obsessing over religion. I've not seen many Australians threatening violence or murdering people. We've never been threatened with invasion from Kenya or Papua New Guinea.
In fact, what I see is that the Commonwealth stood behind us when we've been at war with other European countries."
"Jeremy Rifkin's 'The end of work':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Work"
"_AT_ llovemisty.
Your grasp of history is exceeding weak! In the 1960s Whitehall, without consulting its Commonwealth partners, cancelled the British citizenship, of which we were perhaps foolishly proud, of Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans in order to qualify to join the then European Common Market. Those countries had been independent parliamentary democracies for decades but were very definitely members of the British 'family of nations' with a shared cultural history. That removal of our classification as British seemed at the time to be very poor recompense for pouring troops, materiel and food into the 'Mother Country' during two World Wars.
This is one Kiwi whose older relatives here would spit sparks if you told them that they had more in common with Germans or Frenchmen or Poles than with their relatives in NZ.
As to your points about us Commonwealth types obsessing over religion or murdering people, I admit some Kiwis and Aussies, Saffas and Canucks tend to drink a bit much after Rugby games and get a bit silly, but obsess about religion or murder people - not very often!"
"_AT_kiwiinlondon and kikichan
Yes we do indeed have a lot in common with (and a lot to be grateful for from) the likes of Canada, New Zealand and Australia, as well as other Commonwealth countries (although a fair few Indians/Pakistanis fought for the Japanese in WW2, and of course to be fair a great many fought against them). As someone interested the history of both WW1 and WW2 I can tell you that the contribution of Commonwealth forces is greatly respected here in the UK. I only recently saw a documentary about the Canadian victory at Vimy Ridge in WW1, and another on El Alamein which explicitly mentioned the New Zealand, South African, Australian and Indian forces (amongst others) involved.
I am not actually a blanket fan of the EU project. I believe we have given a bit too much sovereignty (and money) away. The opening of our borders to unrestricted movement without proper planning was also a mistake. I would be fine with forming a community with Canada, Australia and New Zealand (you could add the Caribbean countries, India and a few others), because we are essentially the same people with the same sensibilities. However, the Commonwealth is not just liberal ""western"" democracies. It also contains the likes of Pakistan, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Uganda for example.
I don't feel I have much in common with people who believe time in prison or death is appropriate punishment for blasphemy or apostasy, or preach the sort of open hatred against gays which is unfortunately common in an increasingly large part of Christian and Muslim communities in Africa for example. Or people who reject secularism (Pakistan). This is why I referred to having more in common with Europeans than much of the Commonwealth. Clearly NZ, Canada and New Zealand (along with others) are culturally similar to Europe in these matters. I apologise if I offended with my over generalisation.
The fact remains that in their ""wisdom"", and for largely economic reasons the British government signed up to a EU. Just as for example Australia is building closer ties with Pacific countries close by, the emphasis was placed on links with the immediate neighbours. I for one am sorry if it has damaged relationships with our most faithful allies, but it is a political fact. As for owing other countries, it is pretty fair to say that history shows us that Western Europe owes Britain, the Commonwealth and the US big style for freeing them, but my family for example recieved nothing in terms of reward from the French, Belgiums, Norwegians etc, so any ""debt"" is history."
But "in many cases they came with aptitudes and a commitment, an involvement we haven't always seen in our labour force" is not really the same as "eastern European immigrants have more "aptitude and commitment" to work than British people", is it?

_AT_hoddle1 - They probably work harder than Mr Farage does. Almost every time I see him, he is in a pub.
_AT_hoddle1 - They work very hard actually, some of them attend meetings, go to parliament (for a good sleep usually) - and even give secretaries instructions!
_AT_hoddle1 - fantastic riposte
"_AT_hoddle1 - I shadowed an MP as part of my university course.
12 hours days as standard, usually 6-7 days a week not including constituency surgeries.
A backbencher as well, not a minister or member of a select committee."
"_AT_hoddle1 05 June 2013 10:20am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

How do you know this, or is just more clap trap from those who are ""anti"" anything and everything?"
_AT_JDKoopa - 12 hours a day 7 days a week? I'm impressed. How long did you shadow this paragon?
"_AT_Glycon -
Filling out expenses forms, mortgage flipping and duckhouse purchases clearly takes time and dedication."
"_AT_Glycon - I worked (well I supposed interned) for about 12 weeks.
I only got to do one week with him in Westminster, that was enough tbh I was knackered!
I'm not exaggerating either, those guys do insane hours."
"_AT_curia - off the top of my head responding to constituent queries, even the insane ones (which was a fairly high proportion), debating legislation, travel to and from Westminster to constituencies, surgeries, attending meetings with potential investors to the constituencies, campaigning, voting.
Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative."
He is right, they have more drive and are harder workers, and also do menial jobs that some people won't do. I remember Boris Johnson saying something similar to John Bercow not long ago.
"_AT_sukyb 05 June 2013 10:21am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
I would do a ""menial"" job somewhere else for 4 times the UK minimum wage with government supported housing and free healthcare if I had no skills and would otherwise be unemployed at home.
Give UK workers those conditions and you just watch the ""drive"" return.
But those options aren't open to low or unskilled UK workers. In fact the reverse of the Romanian situation is that UK workers have a right to go and work for 1/4 of their current minimum in a language spoken by 0.05% of the worlds population. Yet people still persist in the myth that the EU open labour market is a level playing field, it isn't.
The world's your oyster if you are skilled, if not then immigration is a one way street and you are f*cked in the UK."
"_AT_haardvark - it's not like Romania is the only country in the EU. What's preventing the unskilled British workers from learning a skill actually in demand in the UK? Or from say, learning German, and joining some apprenticeship program there? Or from exploring a number of other options that the EU offer?
But I know, blaming the outsiders is so much easier."
"_AT_Oaklander
Not the point.
If you have the current arrangement then the result is inevitable, economic dislocation.
It's also pointless. If you have an in demand skill you can work anywhere anyway and there is no need for the open arrangement that can only work against those of lower skills in the UK. I've work in and out of EU countries all my life. The EU is an utter irrelevance in this case.
I'm all for highly skilled Romanians to come to the UK also to do highly skilled jobs. I do not see the point of re-staffing Costa Coffee in London and giving subsidy to their business indirectly through the benefits system to their employees.
And it still leaves us with the problem of what to do with all those people in the UK who would have done those jobs but don't have the skills to go and compete in the rest of the EU."
_AT_haardvark - I understand that you want to protect the unskilled in the UK, but you are not doing them any favour by trying to shift the blame on Eastern Europeans for their lack of skills and training. While Romanians/Poles learn a new language, attend universities and apprenticeship programs, and supplement their income by working at Costas (many stuff there are students, from what I understand), the Brits waste their time on internet forums complaining about what a bad deal joining EU has been for them. They should understand that the world does not owe anything to them. And if they get their way by withdrawing from the EU and protecting their labour markets, the less competitive the country will become.
_AT_Oaklander - Well it looks like the Germans will pay you now to learn German and go take up a paid apprenticeship in that country. You do need A levels though..
_AT_haardvark - I am a Romanian with PHD in mathematics that I studied in Romania. I came here, contacted NARIC, they granted me equivalent degrees in here. Still I wasn't able to do anything than construction work/cleaning. The reason for that was that Romanians only can work as a self employed and the jobs that you mostly find as a self employed are the ones above. I started doing ACCA and picked up bookkeeping. Had some help from a friend because otherwise no one would have chosen me for a position over of a resident. It is true that migration may bring the cost of low skilled jobs down. But still... when I came here agencies wouldn't even look at me because I did not have all the documents needed to legally work. If you are born here, all you have to do is go and register with a agency. A Romanian that comes here needs at first to know the language then he needs to advertise... to find work as whatever is needed, get reference letters, get liability insurance, write invoices, then apply for National Insurance which you don't get even if you give them the required paperwork, and you try and you try and hopefully you will get it. Then things get easier, you get a Unique Tax Reference Number and apply for CSCS and after all that you can work as a construction worker on a site. If we do all that and we get jobs, and a british doesn't that makes those british people plain lazy.
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie -
I accept that there are perhaps millions of British people who do not have the determination to get a PhD. You are better at getting and holding a job on a building site than many British people. The problem is that our government is washing its hands of them in favour of encouraging immigration.
That is why I am outraged. I am not outraged that there exist Romanians and others with drive and determination. I am outraged that we allow them to come here and take a job that would otherwise go to a less qualified British person when there are so many unemployed.
What do you suggest we do with those that you out-qualify?
Or more importantly what does Mr Bercow suggest we do with them?"
_AT_jimjim1 - you may blame your government for many problems, but something they are certainly not doing is "encouraging immigration". I think they've made it perfectly clear, both policy and rhetoric-wise, that immigrants are by and large not welcome in the UK.
"_AT_Oaklander 05 June 2013 11:06am. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Who is blaming who? Can you see one comment criticism in my comments.
Giving them the right or not to come to the UK is a political decision. I'm not a hypocrite I've worked in many places, but that's always been under the control and with the approval ultimately of the sovereign government who (presumably) work in the interests of the people of that country. There is no political imperative for the EU to work in the interests of people of the UK.
I criticize those who signed the UK up to the EU and gave that control away.
If we had a sensible arrangement we can do exactly what Switzerland has just done this week and limited the number of EU work permits.
This is costing us dearly. Subsidy of incoming workers plus those displaced."
"_AT_haardvark - sorry if I misunderstood your words.
Switzerland has signed up to the free movement clause (in addition to signing up to Schengen and a bunch of other treaties). Their ability to limit entry of EU workers will expire in 2015, if I remember correctly.
In theory, work-permit based employment is fine, but only for those on short-term assignments, and when you are certain of your future.Trust me, I worked on H1B visa in the US, and planning anything long-term there is very difficult (starting from buying property, to planning retirement etc). In addition, work permits reduce bargaining power of workers (it's not easy to find another employment, and being laid off can mean almost immediate removal from the country). This gives disproportionate amount of power to the employer, which ironically can be to the detriment of the local workers, as salary of those on work permits can be held relatively low. What free movement of labour in the EU gives is the solution to all these problems. True, there may be economic costs for the less skilled as well, but as the experience of Germany shows, it's not really a blame of the EU."
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie - The Tories and UKIP keep saying how they love high-skilled immigration and how they want to encourage skilled workers and postgraduate students to come to Britain. In order to get a visa (I'm a Bolivian PhD student), I had to pay a £300 application fee, on top of around £200 worth of travel expenses to attend the visa interview, roughly £100 worth of certified English translations for all the documents (I would have expected that UK Embassy officials working in Latin America would be required to know Spanish to get the job - which incidentally they do - but that doesn't stop them from putting stupid requirements like that), and the cost of getting some of the required documents (e.g. £300 IELTS/TOEFL test with scores higher than those required by the university for a Law PhD student). Then wait for all my documents to be shipped to another UK Embassy in Brazil, so that they take an extra month to grant the visa. They treat you like they are doing you a huge favour throughout the entire process, and it doesn't get any better once you get to Heathrow.

After having applied for a visa for a postgraduate programme in Italy the previous year, the difference was quite stark. I didn't have to attend any interview, and they made the decision on the basis of all the documents I sent them by courier, without shipping the documents to another country. No requirement of providing translations, no application fee (the only thing I had to pay for was the postage), the staff at the airport were polite and welcoming, and Italians didn't treat me like I am eating their lunch. I was entitled to use their health services from day 1, while in the UK I have to pay for private insurance, as my visa says ""no recourse to public funds"". Overseas tuition fees in Italy were higher than EU rates, but the difference was nowhere near the one in the UK (i.e. paying £11500 per year, which is £7828 more than UK/EU rates). In other words, if you are a high-skilled Bolivian who isn't as well off as I am, you shouldn't consider the UK at all, as you will not be able to afford it without a massive scholarship (I was lucky enough to get funding from an external institution)."
"_AT_jimjim1 05 June 2013 12:04pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.

That's absolutely the question. Every country is a spectrum of ability and education. Government needs to function in the interests of all that spectrum otherwise by definition it doesn't represent the demos. A vote from a PHD is equal to that of a labourer in any democratic society. This is why the EU is not democratic and never can be: who are the demos?
Ultimately, all but one human being in the world is out-skilled, out-worked or out-anythinged by somebody.
You can even re-phrase the question. There are almost certainly people who'll out-qualify and out-work Romanians in China or India. Why not give them a chance and open borders? What so privileged about Romania? Indeed what's so privileged about anyone in the world in ""idealistic mode"". The problem is we haven't abolished the nation-state, installed world government and given everyone an equal vote - EU-migration is a policy out of kilter with economic reality."
"_AT_Catalin C Iftimie 05 June 2013 11:31am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

There are many factors to be taken into account. Idleness is not one of them. Many employers will take on an immigrant because they are easier to exploit. British people are more likely to stand up for themselves."
"_AT_haardvark 05 June 2013 12:28pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.

Very well said."
_AT_Brimstone52 - immigrants without rights are certainly easy to exploit. Keep them away from the legal labour market, and most will work for sub-par wages.
_AT_Brimstone52 - Yes. You are right. But that is because the government does not empower the immigrants. So you can't say anything when you are desperate to get a job
"_AT_Oaklander -
Well, well well.
I understand that the present Tory gubmint is presently offering lipservice in the direction of less immigration.
The reality is that for 15 years the Tory ""opposition"" made exactly zero objections to the Blairite ""mad mullah"" policy of unlimited immigration.
For a few small months we have had a few less immigrants, however one day very soon maximum immigration will be re-instated.
I am entirely serious that I think that any British parent should be recommending to their children to escape abroad OR - if they are male - consider going Islamic."
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There's going to be a shitstorm. The telegraph story already has in excess of 1200 comments on this, and they ain't pretty.
Not too much to argue with Bercow on here?
_AT_crosby40 - Some of which surprisingly, or perhaps not so surprisingly, can be found here on CiF.
"_AT_crosby40 05 June 2013 10:23am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

All I saw from Farage in the article was some comments regarding Bercow making political comments.
Where did he say anything about immigration?"
What would John Bercow know about hard work?
_AT_Glycon - Says the person posting on the Guardian website during working hours.
_AT_JDKoopa - Off the tweets are we, Sally?
_AT_Glycon - I take it all back, you are obviously a professional comedian.
_AT_JDKoopa - Not as funny as the clowns in parliament though.
He should try it sometime.
he may be right, but see him and his Tory friends squeal like pigs if any Poles or Czechs came over here and were willing to do HIS cushy jobs for lower wages like they undercut the average british workers
_AT_johnpaulmac - God don't give the Poles an idea, mind I think it's only a matter of time we have every other race running the commons so a band of Poles probably wouldn't make much difference.
Absurd comments from Bercow. Only the highly motivated come, and even the minimum wage here is equivalent to the wage a professional would get back home.
_AT_diddoit - first of all, the minimum wage here is only about 6 pounds. Monthly wage is only about 900 pounds- hardly a bonanza, even in Eastern European countries (trust me, professionals earn more there). Add to that the cost of living in the UK, nasty weather and cool attitude from the locals, and coming here may not be such a great idea even for Romanians.
Yet more proof that the MP`s, no matter if there Labour, the Tories, or Lib Dems, they prefer immigrants over the native British. When will we wake the hell up, and .
"_AT_optimusslime 05 June 2013 10:41am. Get cifFix for Firefox.

Bercow is descended from Romanians. What else do you expect him to say?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bercow"
"Peoples views on immigrants depends on their personal experience or just their ignorant bias views.
The biggest problem is, as in Australia many years ago, when English were shipped en-mass to areas where there was little work. The Australians and immigrants from England and other countries, protested at their arrival. Yet in other areas where there were only a few immigrants they were welcomed with open arms. Same country, same time scale but two different situations.
We had the same outcry when they came from various other countries.
It is the sudden arrival en-mass in isolated locations that causes all the problems - overloading all the services.
As regards under cutting wages, well that is one of the reasons the government like them. They have come in the main from very poor countries and what they get paid is seen as far more than back home. That is until they realise the cost of living is much more.
On the other side of the coin, there are claims that our unemployed refuse to take the lower paid jobs.
Well if you are entitled to £26+k [cash in hand] without getting out of bed - why should you ? Not forgetting that in order to have that same standard of living you would have to earn £35k to £40k due to cost to get to work; income tax; NI contributions; pension contributions; working clothes; tools to mention a few of the costs. So Cameron and Co. are wrong when they say they have limited benefits to average earnings - I do not think they taught maths at the schools and UNI that he and Osborn attended.
In France to access the hospital service you have to show your passport or identity card as well as your health insurance card. So why is UK lagging behind ?"
"_AT_voiceforlogic - I would hate to live in a country where I lay dying at a hospital door simply because I could not find my identity card.
Hurray for our NHS!"
_AT_voiceforlogic - If that's how it is in France, then France is the one lagging behind.
"If only he could concentrate on his job in the Commons !
Isn't it about time he made Cameron actually answer a question ?
Cameron gets away with it by knocking Labour, he never actually answers a question !
So the whole honesty and integrity of The House of Commons is called into disrepute !"
I'm constantly seeing how our 'rich' classes are doing better than the 'poor' classes (in relative terms). Yet when others want a slice of our pie they are blamed for our woes. I have spent time in Romania and always found them conscientious workers who simply want to improve their living standards. I cannot blame them for that.
Personally I treat the sound of Nigel Farage's voice like that of someone farting and apply the "don't ask, don't tell" approach; eventually it will go away.
"Those that are willing to leave there families behind and travel 100s of miles to a foreign culture which speaks a foreign language in order to gain work demonstrate more ""aptitude and commitment"" to work than those who don't.
Ignoring ""Britishness"" for one moment, he only seems guilty of speaking the bloody obvious."
"I was under the impression that constitutionally ""The Speaker"" was similar to the ""Sovereign"" insofar as they were NOT to make overt political comments eother supporting ot criticising government policy or to comment n sensitive issues especially when visiting or speaking in their ""official"" capacity.
Mr Bercow is of course fully entitled to his private views but NOT when he is acting in his official capacity. As Speaker Lenthall once said: "" I have neither eyes to see nor tongue to speak in this place but as the House is pleased to direct me, whose servant I am here""."
"Mr Bercow, locked in a deadly race with his idiot wife to secure the coveted ""buffoon of the year"" award, opens his mouth and some fool speaks.
Now there's a surprise."
_AT_neilmack - I don't know who's worse him or his wife they both act like idiots but then I suppose that how to get on nowadays. Why doesn't Bercow stay in Romania with his relatives.
"what the fuck does this man know about hard work
Paid to sit on his arse to shout order order
Why are the government so easy to condemn british workers
WE work as hard as anyone , when their is the work to do.
he wants to get of his arse and go work in a factory or steelworks or pit , oops sorry they have all gone, they come for benefits not work !
we are the cash cow for the world, but we starvew our own to feed others.
its time our government praised our workers or lets put them on 71 quid a week dole see what they think to that"
"The youngsters used to work weekends and evenings to earn pocket money, students at Uni. worked to pay their way through Uni. Many people had second jobs, although we had a 6 day week, GB prospered through it's hard working people after the war.
Then, children were stopped from working at 12, then 14 and now i think it is 16. When I see these people from E Europe working in the fields I am not impressed! They are always stopping for a break, then the machinery breaks down and more time sitting in the grass with drinks and snacks. Not as if the work were physically taxing now. No hoeing gangs and no harvesting by hand. Waste is abundant due to sloppy work!
Being able to work to earn pocket money was a great incentive that children were deprived of, as was the ability to adapt to the hard days work that was expected! Many people in their 70's can do a long hard days work as they were brought up to do it. Today's young people aren't brought up to work!
I am sure the same has happened in Eastern European countries! Only the elderly that were brought up to work are capable of doing a hard days work! Sitting on their butt all day watching a screen is not teaching youngsters to work and not bringing up future generations to work!"
_AT_Forestlands - You are right, absolutely.
"voice for logic
Well if you are entitled to £26+k [cash in hand] without getting out of bed - why should you ?

Dont you think that if this figure was true we would all pack in our jobs .
dole is 71 pound a week
esa 100 pound a week
whers the 26,000 come from then ? out of the mouth of IDS the lying bastard
no where else."
"_AT_lonewarrior -

I thought it was a bit more than 2000 people - something like 40,000 households...?"
"Eastern european people are renowned for having a work ethic but much of it is based on stereotype that largely comes from the soviet era and, before that, the eastern european Jewish immigrants of the late 19th/early 20th century who were forced to work ten times harder than anyone else - usually starting their own businesses as many British employers were too anti-semitic to employ them.
One of the main reasons why the diligent eastern european worker stereotype has undergone something of a revival today though is largely due to the fact that employers are more likely to employ immigrants to work for them than non-immigrants as it is entirely legal to pay them much less. As the Equal Pay Act does not cover race, religion or nationality - and only gender - it is still entirely legal to pay one worker less for doing exactly the same job than an other purely on the grounds, for instance, that you, as an employer, simply prefer one nationality, race or religion to the other.
Strange, but true."
"_AT_3genders -
Hit the nail on the head son! EU migrants work very hard, and long hours for poor pay. Why? Because in their own countries, with minimal investment under a Communist, totalitarian regime (until the Wall went down) where there are few jobs, and low wages.
What a surprise that all the employers are in love with them. I think it is called ""exploitation"".
I have also noticed that within a couple of years this all changes, they want more money and suddenly the ""work ethic"" so lauded by the employers evaporates.
Case in point. I have 3 Romanian lads in the flat upstairs, none of them work. Was talking to one of them the other day, asked what he did. He said he was a ""Plasterer"" but that he was very good at it but the jobs were not paying enough! (You could not make it up)
All 3 spend all day laughing and shouting and smoking Skunk Weed in the back garden or out their kitchen window. Then throw all the cigarette ends out the window using my patio as an ashtray.
No doubt all 3 are claiming benefit.
What sickens me is how the government have turned their backs on the UK workforce, school leavers and would rather see us on the Dole and employ EU migrants. I have suspected for a long time that Government & ""Big Business"" is complicit in all of this. We are so brainwashed by ""Political Correctness"", the BBC that we are not allowed to say anything about it, or are a ""Racist"".
Basically employers love 'em because they work cheap, Government dont give a toss and that prat Bercow has just proved what I suspected all along!"
John Bercow's spokesman...the speaker has someone to speak for him...?
Bercow is the game show host of the House of Commons I'm not sure what experience he has to make such generalist statements that overall immigrants are better workers. Maybe he is talking from experience I don't know.
"Bercow has proved what I suspected all along, Politicians are hell bent on getting half the former Soviet Union over here, regardless of what party they represent. Why? Because they all represent Big Business and love cheap migrant labor. Even if the Country is in recession & our school leavers cannot get jobs.
I am sick of hearing ""they are better than us"", this is employer code for saying they work longer hours, cheaper. Sure they work hard, for a few years then demand huge pay rises and shorter hours in my experience.
Bercow's comments, even if in answer to a question are sickening. Did they invent the Jet Engine and the Steam Locomotive? I dont think so. To say they are ""better"" than British workers is frankly insulting, but says it all in this age of ""Political Correctness"" gone bonkers. They work cheap, end of. They are not any better or worse than the majority of hard working British people, struggling under inept successive Governments, to raise a family and find a job.
Of course, under ""Political Correctness"" you are not allowed to state the bleeding obvious, that mass immigration is totally out of control, or branded a ""Racist"". Sorry, the race card has been pulled too many times. Time we spoke out. Some maybe hard working but a huge percentage are basically ""Russian Mafiosi"" and milking the system for all it is worth. Sorry, not allowed to say that am I?
Vote UKIP & put a stop to this nonsence!"
_AT_telecasterjohn - what a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.
_AT_telecasterjohn - Unfortunately quite a lot of MP's are descended from other races so they won't say anything bad about there old country as Bercow wouldn't say anything criticising the Romanians when his Grandparent were Romanian. This country is just a joke now we're frightened of our own shadow.
So an MP cannot play a compliment to hard working immigrants but it is ok for an un elected moutpiece to trash hard working immigrants and have the elected government jumping through hoops to satisfy the bigotry he has whipped up?
Good for Bercow. Long live free movement of people and workers in the EU.
_AT_martinduncannon - And if he, as speaker expressed opinions diametrically opposite to your opinions, do you feel that he should remain as speaker????
_AT_martinduncannon - Hope that someone takes your job soon for a lot less pay than your getting then lets see what your opinion is then shall we...........................
_AT_bobbybt - Free movement of labour does not take away jobs from British people not even in Boston, Lincs. Indeed it would be impossible to run intensive British agriculture or the NHS (two entirely different sectors) without migrant labour. The problem in Boston is very rapid social change from a town which 10 years ago was 95% White British to now only 60% White British (and 35% White Other), but this has not created unemployment. The arrival of migrants has met employment demand than Brits have been unable to fill.
_AT_MichaelBusymouthDoug - Yes, actually he used to be a racist little sod on the right wing of the Tory party (the Monday club I believe) but in the meantime the Speaker has reformed himself.
"Farage – who challenged the Speaker in the 2010 general election – told the Daily Telegraph: ""It is outrageous that Mr Bercow is happy to overthrow the wisdom of ages and think it acceptable to comment on matters that are both highly political and deeply contentious. He is a disgrace to the office of Speaker.
While agreeing with Bercow, it is not his place as speaker, to discuss on a public forum such a contentious subject."
John Bercow should remain impartial but how can he when his Grandparents were ROMANIAN. He is another who although years ago, his Jewish parents came here and settled and then bringing up junior told him to screw everything and make lots money and not to care who he upsets. I wonder if he is so fond of his Romanian people, he would work for £6 an hour or less, we all know what the answer to that is don't we. The house of commons is full of people that haven't even got an idea of what normal people want or would like, to them it's just money and we are going back to the Victorian Values that another John wanted us to live by a John Major. He done OK for a clown who used to work in the circus. Try and get the message Mr Bercow if you like Romanians that much ........go and live in Romania.
HARD WORK.......................MP's..........................Contradiction in terms isn't it, and to ask if they would do their job for £6.19 per hour what sort of answer do you think we would get, if they did there would be more corruption and brown envelopes and lobbyists in Parliament than there is already...................!
British Jobs for British Workers! ~ Gordon Brown.
"Is it really any surprise that an economic migrant worker who is a adult aged 25 to 30 years of age, college educated, trades person,teacher or other profession in their own country, who has come to the UK to take advantage of the higher wages, free health care and chance to earn money to send home and or live here is a better prospect to employers in many cases.
A polish workers minimum wage in their own country is about £1.00 an hour compared to our £6.19, it clearly is not a level playing field when you put this person up against a young or old British worker.
I am not apologising yes we have young workers who need a kick up the ass, but we all know that if you go to an employment agency or any other major employer about 70% of the staff are non-british born, we have had about 4 million immigrants in 10 years, no surprise that the NHS is straining to cope under the avalanche of babies etc.
Now put this up against Bercoe, MPS have a basic wage of £70,000 plus huge expenses, most are millionaires and have privilged upbringings, they dont have a clue what it is like doing cleaning jobs etc.
During the 2009 parliamentary expenses scandal, it was revealed that Bercow changed the designation of his second home on more than one occasion – meaning that he avoided paying capital gains tax on the sale of two properties. He also claimed just under £1,000 to hire an accountant to fill in his tax returns. Bercow denied any wrongdoing, but agreed to pay £6,508 to cover any tax that he may have had to pay to HM Revenue and Custom"
"(Sorry I am picking on Poland) I have worked with Polish workers and people from all over the world, no issues nice people, but when as for Europe that was no level playing field either when Poland joined every EU country except UK and Eire introduced a work permit system which was kept in place for 5 years, so the despite the fact that Poland is on the German border and close to France, the bulk of immigrants came here. I am still working I have paid 38 years contributions, we paid into the system not for the rest of the world to help themselves, We have 2 children....
in conclusion with the Romanians, Bulgarians and now Latvians on their way, we have got to get out of the EU...vote UKIP the commonsense party!!!!"
"What else can you expect from a charlatan and sychophant like Cameron?
.....""Cameron and his entourage of CEOs and vice-chancellors will undoubtedly speed past the slums rapidly being cleared for the shiny new malls being built on every spare inch of India's major cities""...... He does that in the UK too."
"_AT_Strummered - to selfishly bypass the nesting nonsense, I'll repost from below:
We need to start thinking of the movement of people as being coupled with the movement of capital. If money is going from your country to another, you should be able to follow it for a job. Either open borders, or allow poor countries to protect their domestic industries. Anything else is unfair and colonial.
Sorry for limpeting on like this, Strummered."
"_AT_Strummered - BBC news reckoned he was pushing for Tesco too.
The man degrades the post of PM every time he opens his bloody mouth.
And as I understand it, he doesn't want ""Indians"" he wants ""RICH Indians.""
Just remind me what his dimwit education secretary keeps spouting about ambition for the poor?"
_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Yes of course we want rich Indians to invest in this country. If you don't understand this I suggest you visit the steelworks at Port Talbot or the car workers at Jaguar/Land Rover. Only ever voted Labour but completely support the aims of Cameron's visit.
"_AT_Strummered -
He loves all immigration really. Cheap labour drives down wages.
Pretending to be against it is just to fool those saps who vote Tory thinking he's tough on immigration."
_AT_Strummered - having been at the wrong end of unrelenting discrimination in the 70s and 80s I think this fratboy is barking up the wrong tree. Many talented Indians, whether rich or poor have moved on to the USA.
"_AT_ffynnongarw - That's a different issue entirely. People don't have to live in a country to ""invest"" in it. Or take profit from it, which is another way of looking at the same thing.
I'm assuming of course that Steve Jobs, as a for instance, didn't go and live in China? Am I correct in this assumption?"
"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Steve Jobs was omnipresent.
It was one of the job perks of being a living god."
"_AT_ffynnongarw - Exactly. There is nothing wrong with inviting people to come and invest money in yoour country and create employment opportunities.
I hate it when the Guardian fails to understand the difference between journalism and comnplete and utter rubbish. Look at the caption of this article:
''Cameron's immigration hierarchy: Indians good, eastern Europeans bad.''
He is not inviting Indians to come here and claim benefits! Is he?
Europeans are also welcome if they bring investment or skills to the UK. But if the intention is to come here and burden the UK tax payer with the welfare bill, then NO. They are a responsibility of their respective governments, and not the British tax payer."
"_AT_TazDesmond - Its just another ""fresh meat"" article offered to the rabid anti tories. There is no logic.
I'm not Cameron's greatest fan but you are right. But, it is in the country's best interest to encouraging investment and high skilled (wage) labour, whilst discouraging large scale, low wage (low tax) immigration. Only the rabid ideologists and anti tories this type of article was designed for can't see that.
Its a bit nausiating watching him be so sycophantic but then he is trying to increase trade to a BRIC economy that has had quite a bit of bad press from the UK. It would be totally negligent to not promote and encourage British business and exports to high growth economy as British wealth and job rely on it.
Its just as ignorant to counter the simplistic Daily Mail ""all immigration is bad"" mantra with the converse. Low skill, low wage and low tax immigration is an over all cost to the British tax payer. Trying to limit costs to the tax payer and society is a responsible thing for a PM and government to do."
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"_AT_Strummered -
And this comment got the graun pick?
As used as i am to CIF's bottom-feeding standards, this has genuinely shocked me."
_AT_BelowRadar -- It seemed to sum up Cameron rather well, actually.
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"_AT_TheGreatRonRafferty - Cupertino, the Californian town where Apple's HQ is, and where Apple is the principal employer, has become an Asian majority town in under five years.
Apple has brought the productive high-IQ Chinese it wants to America in record time."
_AT_StraitIsTheGate - Loving immigration then is not the same as loving immigrants.
_AT_Strummered - Agreed. Thus is the DNA of Tories.
"_AT_missing yet again -
I'm sure the slaves working in FoxxConn agree with you............"
"I think it's more a case of:
""Skilled immigration to plug shortages in vital areas of our labour market good; unskilled immigration to take all the jobs which would otherwise have been done by young people without very much in the way of qualifications bad""
Which is fair enough really, from my perspective."
"_AT_Liberalism -
It makes total sense.
From the article:

But this is the very essence of sensible and correctly discriminating immigration policy - why should there be a open door for any number of unqualified workers (Bulgarian, white, or whatever)? The trouble is there will be thanks to our membership of the EU.
But according to the writer we musn't have any hierarchy or ""discrimination"" must we? - even when deciding immigration policy. Let's not discriminate about what's good for our economy. Just let everyone come regardless of whether it is good for our people or economy or not. This article is based on the usual Leftist nonsense that we should go through life treating everything as equally desirable regardless of intrinsic merit or practical sense."
_AT_LorddMUCK - I don't think the article is saying that. It just does seem that Eastern European immigration is looked at negatively by many sections in the media and by politicians. Why is it leftist nonsense to discuss the different attitudes towards immigration country by country?
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - ALL politicians thought EE immigration was great if their posturings on Question Time were to be believed. It was only when the banks went tits up that EE immigration took a knock from them.
You'll remember how our leaders of all parties would go on and on, salivating at the prospect of all the different restaurants it was now possible to visit - to Chinese and Indian, Italian and French, there was added all those different EE ones.
That appeared to be about the sum total of their understanding of immigration, good or bad."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - Why is it leftist nonsense to discuss the different attitudes towards immigration country by country?
I think you need to turn that argument on its head. Why shouldn't we have differen't attitudes towards imigration on a country by country basis.
It would appear that even in the Guardian below the line there is a significant majority of comments in favour of discrimination and most clearly state their rational for preferring highly skilled immigrants.
Rather than gently implying that we are all racist bigots those on the other side of the argument should try to explain their position."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie -

ote>
If it is we know why - the last government's failure to have transition controls. And perhaps also the denial of some that the level of immigration has been detrimental to British workers, particularly at the lower end of the market. But I suppose one musn't disicrimate in favour of one's own people by having sensible immigration policy, eh?

Because country clearly isn't the issue here - the appopriateness of immigrants in terms of our economic needs is the issue. The focus on country (or race) is just cover for the usual Liberal-Left ""non-judgmental"" mindset that we musn't make any discriminations at all because to do so is intrinsically wrong. In immigration that just translates into, ""let them all come regardless"" - so the implicit accusation of racism is used as cover for instinctive hostility to any immigration control at all (on the implicit assumption that the latter also is racist).
Did it really need spelling out?"
_AT_IsabellaMackie - I agree. It's not nonsense to discuss different attitudes towards immigration country by country. Nor is it nonsense to have different attitudes. Eastern Europeans are fine with me, as it happens, though I understand why people get anxious about numbers. And there may be good reasons to worry about Roma (as opposed to Romanian) gangs.
"_AT_LorddMUCK - You write: ""the appopriateness of immigrants in terms of our economic needs is the issue.""
I agree with some of the other things you write, but I don't think economic needs ought to take absolute priority. The extent to which immigrants are likely to fit in culturally ought to be taken much more seriously.
Too many people take the preservation of culture seriously only for immigrants. It's this mindset and the policies that support it that have segregated our cities to the point where even Trevor Phillips now worries."
"_AT_LorddMUCK - Funny that. Many immigrants came because ""entrepreneurs"" brought them here, then took away their passports, stuck them in houses of multiple occupancy (and that's an understatement) and paid them peanuts by charging extortionate ""rent"" and for food (some of which was unfit for human consumption) and ""interest"" on the travel fare.
It's weird how the right turn such facts on their head to blame others. Daren't they admit to what charlatans their fellow travellers are?"
_AT_IsabellaMackie - becasue the very nature of the immigration from the two places is different. One looks at skills and our need of them and the other doesn't. But of course the article just ignores this and does what every good lefty article does- reaches for the race card.
"_AT_NewAnglican - I would say we also need to look beyond our economic needs, and those that are cultural, and consider all things- the environment, quality of life, food and energy security, everything. And we should look long term instead of at just short term fixes.
The short term economic benefits are questionable, and I believe the long term impacts of mass population increase are throughly negative."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - How about an article on the how overimmigration has hit the working class?
A real bit of investigative journalism rather than relying on a bias report from the EU.
That's a request from a leftie as well."
"_AT_IsabellaMackie - The problem with EU immigration is that there are no filters applied to it. Anyone can come, including people who are of no use to the UK. Why would you defend that? It's completely illogical.
The immigration points system to be applied to all immigrants, regardless of their origin. That way we will get those who are useful to us, and exclude those who are not. Simple economics, designed to make the UK a more prosperous place."
"_AT_Liberalism - What about the skill shortage in the country the immigrants come from? Only if that nation has a surplus of such skills should we accept them here.
This is outsourcing education - getting other nations to train and teach their citizens to do important jobs and then snatching them away. Why can't we train our own citizens to do these jobs?
There should be a massive windfall tax on wealth, with the resulting revenue used on education all the up to university level."
"_AT_FuzzySpider -

Their problem, not ours.
In any case, if we didn't poach the best Indian talent, they still wouldn't stay in India - they'd go to the USA or somewhere else in the developed World.
Plenty of UK citizens are upping sticks and heading for Dubai, Hong Kong and Singapore, it works both ways."
"_AT_LorddMUCK -
If we're talking about the 'appropriateness' of different strands of the immigration spectrum in terms of our economic needs , then I agree with StraitIsTheGate (18 February 2013 5:23pm)

He doesn't want cheap Indian labour because that would give him another social/cultural headache his voters won't stomach. But, for private equity's principal parliamentary representative, while our economy dances in George Osborne's ongoing rendition of futile darkness, 'invisible' unskilled labour to keep employment costs down remains a no-brainer, by whatever means necessary - and that includes Bulgarians and Romanians getting their knees dirty picking our supermarket food, as well as our kids being obliged to stack shelves in exchange for benefits at the other end of the retail chain.
For the DC crew it's all win-win - most people have stopped following the money and just obsess about what's left of their own, happy to blame this week's non-taxpaying scapegoat, rather than admit this government is as rotten soft from the inside as a field of old fruit."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - Agreed, and the short-term benefits of different groups differ. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, for example, tend to have higher unemployment rates than Indians and Chinese. So why don't we give a higher priority to Indians and Chinese. Indeed, why don't we look at the stats for diverse groups--crime rate, levels of racism and homophobia, tendency to segregate, levels of religious extremism, and decide which immigrant groups are best for Britain.
It would be a nice change from Some leftists' point of view, which is to figure out what sort of Britain would be best for immigrants and treat those who don't go along with their plans as subhuman."
_AT_Liberalism - I don't see a problem to be honest. It makes more sense to welcome those who are skilled and hard working over those who aren't, whatever their race or nationality, and religious moderates are obviously preferable to extremists. A highly skilled/educated Romanian or Pakistani who speaks fluent English would obviously be more welcome than a lazy Indian who refused to contribute to society. Why shouldn't we prefer those who benefit us and make us prosper? Isn't that just common sense?
"_AT_NewAnglican - Well, I would rather not look at certain countries but rather at the needs of this country. If it can be demonstrated that a skill isnt available or is in short supply here then visas could be issued to plug the gap, with apprenticeships and degrees, etc, expanded to eliminate the shortage in the longer term. People should be able to come form anywhere to fill these roles but preferably on a short term basis if our population is shown to be expanding through net immigration. This is what many countries do.
I wouldn't want to pick on individual countries or religions but would rather say that a proper worldwide mix of immigrants is better than having so many from just a few countries. And we really need integration instead of segregation"
_AT_moroboshi - The problem with many of you is that you have either forgotten or completely ignore the very reasons at the heart of the European Union, which were ironed out in the Maastricht treaty well over 20 years ago. It's about FREE movement of goods, capital AND PEOPLE. It's about being part of a UNION. The UNITED Kingdom is such because it is a UNION of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, within which exactly the same principles apply - and then some. If you start to apply 'filters' you negate the very idea, so you should abandon it altogether - with all that it entails, and the result wouldn't be just the end of immigration (and emigration), you can be bloody well sure your losses will be more painful on the whole and way into the future.
"_AT_NewAnglican -
Why don't you just come out ans say that you don't want any muslims in Britain it would be much easier then naming all of those anti muslim steriotypes. By the way alot of indians(only hindus no muslims) would have hard time living up to your liberal standarts, giving the rising
hindu fundamentalism in india."
"What, exactly, is the problem with a country deciding who should be allowed in?
It's all academic since we can't stop EU immigration, but it's very telling that the Guardian is more concerned about Indian professionals taking middle-class jobs than Eastern Europeans taking working-class jobs.
Oh, and stop saying opposition to over immigration is 'racist'. It's not."
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_AT_StVitusGerulaitis - If we left the EU we could control the EU immigration.
_AT_JoeSmithie - If we left the EU, the UK would be one vast slum with pockets of affluence in gated communities......But you're right nobody in their right mind would want to come here.
"_AT_Strummered - If we left the EU, the UK would be one vast slum with pockets of affluence in gated communities....
So no change there then, welcome to London"
_AT_Strummered - Sort of like South Africa.
"_AT_JoeSmithie -
""If we left the EU we could control the EU immigration""
More British people in Europe then Europeans living in Britain.
Should we all come back?"
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - They never think about that do they? Their outlook being rather parochial.
"_AT_JoeSmithie -

And there'd be even fewer jobs."
"We" (I assume you mean millionaire politicians) could anyway. Any thoughts on why millionaire politicians might not want to?
"_AT_Strummered -
""They never think about that do they?""
They rarely leave Ambridge Strum."
_AT_StVitusGerulaitis - Exactly. To read the Guardian, you'd think Britain's immigration policy should exist to serve immigrants rather than Britain. And while columnists constantly stress the importance to immigrants of preserving their culture, they act as if it's racist for Britons to care about their own.
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt 18 February 2013 5:13pm. Backlink by cifFix.
Did you not mean Tunbridge Wells?"
_AT_Strummered - Can the UK not be both out of the EU and run along left wing lines? Or is leaving the EU only to be associated with UKIP and the Tories?
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - erm.... how about the sensible middle ground that you know exists that would involve each country deciding if they actually want or need its immigrants? Or do you only deal in black and white?
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
""Or do you only deal in black and white?""
What do you mean by that?
In contrast to a lot of the teenage hysterics I encounter on here anytime immigration is mentioned I pointed out a fact. A fact, which shows, immigration works both ways.
You will be hard pushed to find a more ""sensible middle ground"" than that."
"_AT_cadmusandeuropa -
Always been reluctant to go to Tunbridge Wells through fear of being chased out by the locals with pitchforks and garden sheers on account of my non Kentish accent."
What is this 'guardian pick' all about? How on earth does the first post on this thread 'contribute to the debate'? It's just insulting Cameron.
"_AT_StVitusGerulaitis -
"" It's just insulting Cameron""
Reason enough for me."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt -

Eeek- just noticed the ""black and white"" bit which looks like a bad pun but wasn't intended. By black and white I mean the sort of thinking that says we can only adopt extreme measures at either end of the scale. For example, if someone opposes unlimited immigration we then we counter by saying that the only alternative is no immigration. I don't think anyone is advocating that, just either balanced immigration which would still mean hundreds of thousands of people coming here, or immigration according to the country's demonstrable need.
So I don't think saying that every British person working in the EU would have to come home is the sensible middle ground."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo 18 February 2013 7:46pm. Backlink by cifFix.
i think _AT_nocausetoadopt was just pointing out the absurdity of the whole immigration policy idiocy"
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
Didn't wish to come over harsh cheese lover.
Seems the moment immigration is mentioned, the ill-informed get hysterics. Some mug downstairs is even going on about stolen war memorials. Its pathetic.
And its normally those that are in awe of ""market forces""
Would market forces not then dictate that if there was no work for them here they would not come?
And if the locals in a town had better things to do than work at the abattoir for example, should they not be grateful to the folks from wherever who come over and get stuck in? As most locals are.
If its not that, its ""the pressure on social services"".
The same social services they have contributed to, otherwise they wouldn't qualify for it. Would it not be an idea to improve social services for everyone.
A few months ago it was the Greeks. Like an unemployed Greek chap wants to swap his sunny dole que for a drizzly one here.
The whole argument is bollocks.
If the government wants to do something about the issue it should introduce a program of training our young folk to do the jobs required then people would see no reason to come here.
""Full Employment"" two filthy words in Westminster for the past 30 years.
I like cheese too."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt 18 February 2013 8:24pm. Backlink by cifFix.
If the government wants to do something about the issue it should introduce a program of training our young folk to do the jobs required then people would see no reason to come here.
""Full Employment"" two filthy words in Westminster for the past 30 years.
well said sir, bravo!"
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt - _AT_nocausetoaddopt - No harshness felt. But I do think that if people are in favour of immigration, it is helpful not assume who it is they are debating with. Most people assume it is with Tories but I'm practically the opposite- I think mass immigration undermines education and training of British people, and lowers wages and increases inequality.

Why are all British people too good for bad jobs? Some are not particularly bright and welcome jobs like that. However, wages have gone down due to the oversuppply of labour in these fields. Now, for people from abroad, saving money to spend later in their home country, this amount might be enough, and they are willing to live in grotty conditions to mange to save- a house in their home country might be very cheap. But to a British person that same money isnt going to get them very far, adn they dont want to live 10 to a room in order to make sure that wage gets them a reasonable standard of living in this country. So economically, they are on a different labour curve to those from cheaper countries and this gives the appearance of laziness- it isn't, however.

No, that was to do with taking money out of Greece becuase they feared Greece would leave the Euro- they were putting it into London property. london property continues to buck the trend precisely because of foreign investors.

Why bother when they can import the skills? Industry doesnt want to pay taxes to pay for better education when it doesnt rely on British skills

Impossible to acheive unless you make the unemployed more employable. But again, they don't really need to when recruiting internationally."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo -
My cheese loving friend.
People are not "" in favour of immigration"" or ""migration"" Its a simple fact.And the reason for "" British people too good for bad jobs"" is its non-inclusive and non focused education system.And the expectancy, that we can all become millionaires by buying and selling the same houses to each-other. Its a pile of bollocks.
There are many quite valid reasons for British people not have taken on jobs that were available then, but if they had have done, then these folks would not have come. If now, after the fact, its added to the issue then its a bit rich to complain now about them being here.
""Why bother when they can import the skills? Industry doesnt want to pay taxes to pay for better education when it doesnt rely on British skills""
The education system is not conducive to industry in the UK. I have a feeling this is deliberate policy. My skills however, have been ""exported"". I post from abroad. And enjoy all the benefits that any local would, un-begrudgingly.
And if you really think that full employment is in-achievable you must either have fallen for the rhetoric, or be under 40.
Gruyere."
"_AT_nocausetoaddopt -

I should have said unlimited mass immigration, which is what we have here. It corresponds not to need or want, just the fact that the average wage here is higher than in eastern Europe.

.
No- people in all countries have a range of abilities and desire for what level of jobs they want to do. I dont see a need for bringing in poor foreigners to shovel our shit up behind us.

.
It depends who's doing the complaining- those at the botom end of the scale who have seen their wages lowered didn't have a choice in the first place.

Any country that wants the highest GDP/capita would ensure it paid for an education system that was equal to the best in the world. We don't- and I wonder why. It isn't as though we rely on home grown businesses or talent.

The world the over 40s remember is long gone. We compete with a fair few more countries than we did then, and we're far more open to the world markets. Keeping wages at a level we expect when we have nothing special to give to the world is unrealistic. All we rely on is access to the EU, our reputation as a place to stash money, and the promise of unlimited cheap labour.
Enjoy your cheese"
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - If the UK left the EU I'm sure the EU would let you stay on...you could apply for political asylum. I'm sure it would be granted given that without the EU the UK would soon qualify as a small country in the developing world....
"_AT_Strummered -

Like it isn't already - thanks to the EU."
_AT_nocausetoaddopt - the people of Anglesey would love to continue working in their local abattoir/meat packing works using locally farmed meat but the Dutch owners prefer to close it and produce the meat somewhere else, wonder where the meat will come from and indeed what it is?
"This is just misleading. The government's policy, as far as EU legislation allows it to have one, is broadly correct. Skilled migrants or those who are going to pay for an education before leaving are welcome, unskilled migrants who arrive without work are not welcome. That is an entirely sensible position and one we see in the current policy.
Unskilled Eastern European immigrants looking for low paid work are being discouraged whilst Indian Businessman and students are being encouraged. The former create social problems (see the housing crisis in newham) and drive down wages whilst the latter bring investment. The highly skilled from Eastern Europe or Eastern Europeans bringing investment are as equally welcome as those from India. Race and country of origin have nothing to do with it beyond EU regulation that forces the UK to accept all EU migrants.
This article really misses the point which is that Britain's member ship of the EU has opened the UK up to mass unskilled immigration which has contributed to a housing crisis and depressed wages. However, skilled immigration is good."
"_AT_typhoonboom - You failed to mention that skilled workers are fully self-supporting, do not drain local resources, tend to leave if their work drys up, and very very rarely are involved in crime.
I have yet to hear of Romanian engineers or Polish doctors stealing war memorials for their scrap metal value, nor have I heard of Indian software engineers organising crime syndicats (but maybe they are too clever to be caught).
You hit the problem on the head: immigration policy should allow for numbers to be tweaked to ensure that there is not an over-supply of either skilled or unskilled workers entering the country. Unfortunately, EU rules do not allow for this..."
"_AT_KnaveOfHearts -
""I have yet to hear of Romanian engineers or Polish doctors stealing war memorials for their scrap metal value""
Implying no doubt that it were unskilled Romanian or Polish immigrants.
Those that eat our swans."
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Wow, I get to be the first to comment on the latest perverse offering from the Guardian on immigration. Amazing how its still somehow to do with race even though the govn't is now according an easier welcome to Indians than some eastern Europeans. I wonder if Alana has ever tried to work in a "developing country", because I have on a few occasions. The number of hoops one needs to jump through, proving no local can do the job, lots of form fillings, etc All developed countries also have restrictions on non-EU economic migrations, I have also worked in the US and have several friends who have done so for many years. Again, they process is long and tough to prove that you are not taking a job from a local. No none of these systems are perfect, but the basic premise that a nation state should act in the best interests of its citizens does not to me seem to be a difficult or crazy one. Of course we should welcome those who want to invest in or use services in this country (eg education), whilst seeking to limit low skilled economic migrants whose contribution to the economy is at best marginal and quite likely negative overall. I would hold these views at any time, but even more so in a time of austerity, when funding for many basic services is under enormous pressure and when we have many unemployed or looking for more hours.
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A very sensible position.
Time to re-examine the PR man as "social liberal"?
_AT_thincat1 - err, how is that relevant?
Well, yes. Obviously.
_AT_TruffleWednesday - And that's the way it should be
"Surely it immigration should be based on the sort of people we need not a Labour styled open door policy.
The last thing this country needs is more people coming here to scrounge benefits and NHS tourism."
_AT_JoeSmithie - and the last thing any other country needs is our NHS hoovering up their qualified medics
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"_AT_JoeSmithie -
What a great idea, if only there were a system that conservatives believed could somehow regulate the allocation and flow of factors of production.
Maybe we could call it 'the free market' or some such.
When I see a tory (or any neo-liberal for that matter) demand the parallel regulation of incoming foreign goods and capital I'll take them seriously on 'immigration' until such times they're nothing but spoilt infantile narcissists who want the fruits of competition without having to compete."
"The message Labour sent out was: we will let any Tom, Dick or Harry into the country, because they'll vote for us at the next election.
Now call me back if I'm out of line, but the Tory message seems entirely reasonable while the Labour message is a betrayal of the very people they purport to represent.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's certainly the way it looks from where I'm standing."
"_AT_Liberalism - The message Labour sent out was: we will let any Tom, Dick or Harry into the country, because they'll vote for us at the next election.
...............
statistics ."
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India is extremely important for UK because it's one of the largest investors as well as Indian companies are the biggest employers in UK unlike bulgaria and romania.Relationship with india is extremely critical for UK's future.
"_AT_abhisheknayak - So long as they don't think it means we need to therefore take a significant proportion of their 1.2bn people. India will be screwed up in the future- they will always be an environmental burden on the planet and will never be carbon neutral as they have too many people and not enough land.
We ourselves are almost as bad with our population density and much worse with our emissions. Being expected to just keep on taking more and more people on the question grounds that it might help keep us richer is absolute folly in the long run."
is different... For them the world if populated by Races, some superior and more beneficial than others ( The vitamin and nutrient intake paradigm applied in races), and they distinguish between scum races, rich races, superior races and unwanted races... any difference with the Arian Nazis? Oh I forgot that we fought them fiercely along with the now hated EU allies as partners, in order to abolish Racism and the criminal abuse of human rights that we want now to abolish under the conservatives. If this is not a 360 degree spin of the British society and culture then what is it? How much debt fear do we need in order to shape inhumane perceptions?
"_AT_Theo Jan - umm, spin 360 degrees and you end up pointing in the same direction that you started.
I think you may be a little confused."
"_AT_Theo Jan 18 February 2013 4:23pm. Backlink by cifFix.

or a left-wing pragmatist. I guess pragmatism about immigration and government influence over the supply and demand of labour is a needless and petty concern from which one can detach oneself when sufficiently wealthy"
_AT_TruffleWednesday - If you spin an object in 3D space 360 degrees you end up with a mirror image of the same object. SO Britain against racism...Britain for racism. Simple concept ...!
_AT_kleineEisbar - Regardless of how rich or poor you are, if your morals and judgements depend on how much you earn, then that says a lot about yourself. Ethics are not dependent, on supply and demand, but on the way a culture is viewing the world and itself, regardless of monetary values. I am not a left-wing pragmatist...but I guess this is the observation of a one track conservative mind that seeks to divide the world to left wing and right wing, in order to process today's complex issues! But the worlds views are more complicated than that! I am glad you find refuge in right-left wing ideology labelling to a comment that made you feel uncomfortable!
"_AT_Theo Jan -
^ 0 degrees
> 90 degrees
v 180 degrees
< 270 degrees
^ 360 degrees. Same as 0 degrees.
Mirror symmetry is not the same as rotational symmetry. You don't get mirror symmetry from spinning anything unless is also has internal symmetry. Which doesn't count."
_AT_TruffleWednesday - An argument for the sake of argument! :-) Check your references, or just spin a 3D object 360 degrees. If you refer to a line on 2D space, its another matter and your comment applies. But I guess your opinions are flat and 2D :-). More feedback on the issue of the article and less criticism just for the sake of it!
"_AT_Theo Jan - Just span a stapler 360 degrees. Same as when it started.
Now you try it. You could use the straw man you have built.
You know the one. This one:"
"_AT_Theo Jan - This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the fact that he happened to be in India at the time.
It's just a form of sucking up and commercial promotion of the UK.
Also, you're not correct about the 360° thing, sorry."
"Spot on.
We need to start thinking of the movement of people as being coupled with the movement of capital. If money is going from your country to another, you should be able to follow it for a job. Either open borders, or allow poor countries to protect their domestic industries. Anything else is unfair and colonial."
_AT_ibnalinklisi - Why is it that the word colonial has become the last bastion of those trying to make a ridiculous argument?
"_AT_typhoonboom - What else do you call countries relying on the threat of violence to force other countries to buy their wares and go along with their policies?
I'm not relying on any word; nor is my argument ridiculous."
"This is all political guff for the Daily Mail. Privately, I'm sure Cameron is even more cold-eyed about it. It's all about economic advantage, as you rightly put it, and if any Romanians or Bulgarians can fill the available vacancies, they will be (and are) welcomed by left and right alike - not that they can now be refused.
And there is a key difference. Indians have to be actively welcomed to come here and, if I'm not mistaken, can be legally turned away. , so in this speech he is trying to correct yet another policy gaffe which affects relations with a major economic player. Romanians and Bulgarians cannot be turned away under EU law, so they can come regardless of their potential to benefit the country. Alienating minor economic players, as those countries are, is in Cameron's mind a political price worth paying to appease Tory diehards adamantly opposed to the EU and the laws it obliges us to observe.
It's ugly realpolitik, I'm afraid. I suspect Labour would say much the same."
"_AT_stupormundi 18 February 2013 4:24pm. Backlink by cifFix.

Is there any evidence this is the case? Students from the subcontinent are always playing off one western country against another, when Britain is down they threaten to take their business to Australia and the United States.
At the same time, they're telling Australia that it's superfluous and they can go to Britain or America anytime they like.
Certainly, that's true of the most intelligent and wealthy subcontinental students, but for the most part they welcome the relatively low fees they pay in Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
If they could afford to go to an American university, they already would have"
"_AT_kleineEisbar - I heard that it was indeed the case that admissions from the Subcontinent were down since the London Met debacle. However, I think more and more universities are taking their courses to the client countries to get around the problem.
You take a rather dim view of British universities in comparison with their US counterparts. The best of British are on a par with the best American institutions, if the international league tables are anything to go by."
_AT_kleineEisbar - From The Subcontinent there is a fall in number of students coming to UK as now one cannot get Post study Visa for 2 years after completion of course. The decrease has been from approx 30000 to 20000 students form India (as per BBC stats). Anyways it is what ppl want so whats the harm in it.
_AT_stupormundi - Sorry to say but in the field of Business, Computer Science and Engineering British Univerisities have fallen behind of US. I agree with you if u talk about medicine,pychology, philosophy.
"_AT_stupormundi -
<Romanians and Bulgarians cannot be turned away under EU law, so they can come regardless of their potential to benefit the country. >
You are missing the main area of concern over EU immigration to the UK. about to be exacerbated by the removal of restrictions from Bulgaria and Romania at the end of this year.
Already child benefit is being paid to tens of thousands of Polish children who have remained in Poland while their parents work here.
After Dec 2013 here is the situation: take a family with children turning up in the UK from any of the EU countries.
They would not need to show they had any job to go to, any accommodation, any finances. The local authority would be obliged to find accommodation and within a few months the family would be in receipt of the whole range of benefits.
It is important to realise that The UK is unlike most other EU countries in that this family would start to receive most of these benefits WITHOUT having to pay anything into the system.
If tens of thousands of families like this arrive in the UK into areas already overcrowded and with welfare resources already under strain one can just imagine the resentment.
I've been in Romania and talked to many people there and I have to say this:
the whole idea of allowing countries with completely different wage structures, minimal welfare state provision, unresolved problems with corruption and an alienated minority (the Roma) unrestricted access to live, work and be entitled to many welfare benefits in the UK is not wise and is frankly unsustainable
Given that Eastern European immigrants would be mainly unskilled or semi-skilled, even if they did manage to get jobs (more difficult now than at the time of the massive Polish immigration), the tax intake would be small compared with the money on benefits paid out.
Cameron is already in negotiation with some other EU countries to try to limit access to benefits for new arrivals."
"_AT_kleineEisbar -
""At the same time, they're telling Australia that it's superfluous and they can go to Britain or America anytime they like.

Certainly, that's true of the most intelligent and wealthy subcontinental students, but for the most part they welcome the relatively low fees they pay in Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

If they could afford to go to an American university, they already would have
""
The difference in fees between a UK and a US uni is basically non-existent. Some US unis are cheaper than UK unis actually, and no, I'm not comparing inferior US unis to superior UK unis.
Now obviously this depends on what the international student is studying. UK unis tend to have different fees for their international students, based on subject of study (ie engineering students might pay a higher amount, the highest amount), whereas US unis generally charge a uniform rate. Also, US unis genearlly include general fees, that cover access to sports facilities, clubs, societies, library printing costs, in their fees, ie, you pay one lump sum, with almost no additional tacked on costs, whereas UK unis generally don't do this.
Also, it is generally easier for international students to find on-campus work at US unis compared to at UK unis. Then consider the cost of living. Cost of living is in general, cheaper in the US, compared to the UK, specifically food and accomodation, which is hardly surprising, given the geographic size of the US compared to the UK.
So, in general, it isn't cheaper to study in the UK, compared to the US, for international (Indian) students."
"_AT_patrick111 -
""- Sorry to say but in the field of Business, Computer Science and Engineering British Univerisities have fallen behind of US. I agree with you if u talk about medicine,pychology, philosophy.""
The truth of that matter really is that anyone wanting to study CS, including Brits, should go to the US, if s/he has the opportunity."
_AT_scubaM10 - Very interesting. Another of the structural flaws at the heart of the EU project.
"_AT_scubaM10 - If I go on the dole and decide to live in Bucharest, the British government pays it for me.
I understood that this reciprocates."
"Or the naked courting of the Commonwealth Nations as the first world wide web of its time by both DC and Queen.
They know we can control how many of the Common Wealth nations nationals, that actually has made far more contribution to this country than any, come to live here than the EU, the reason it is now more attractive. For over a century of association with the Common Wealth with a population number of more than 1.6 billion people, about a 1 - 2 million settled here compared to EU, the Poles alone is near the Common Wealth number."
_AT_MeandYou - Commonwealth contribution? What contribution? The Commonwealth is another burden from the days of The Empire.
_AT_fredwest2010 - So all the raw materials and cheap labour that produce it in the colonies which Britain got nearly for free was a burden? I very often do not reply to your likes.
You are saying this like it's a bad thing. I am struggling to see why. I can see your overall point that saying all Bulgarians are bad while or Indians are good is arguably racist but that particular sentence does not really work in they way you intended it for me.
"So untrue and a lingering misconception.
Unlike the 'mall explosion' of the mid 90s in the West, India is bypassing the malls phenomenon by and large.
There simply aren't malls on every spare inch. You would have to travel some considerable distance to get to one.
Plueeez, dont perpetuate this whole India rushing to malls thing. And slums giving way to them is such a caricature."

_AT_SquirellNut - yeah, it is disappointing when you realise that North Korea is not the socialist workers paradise the leaflet said it was, but this article is about Britain.
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"_AT_SquirellNut -

Bulgarians and Rumanians, apparently"
Pretty sure a Dalit from the Punjab or a Roma from Bucharest would have a slightly different definition of what constitutes a "bigoted class ridden hellhole".
"_AT_typhoonboom - Wahey! the right wing North Korea putdown!
Bingo!
Thankyou. I've just won a clock radio."
"_AT_Vraaak - ""Thankyou. I've just won a clock radio.""
I won a Juicer . Made in South Korea too."
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"Er... and this is a bad thing is it?
We should want immigrants with no skills, little or no English, who have limited capacity or intention to adapt and who bring few if any skillsorv money - being a religious bigot opposed to our entire culture being a bonus?
Personally with the economy in tatters and millions on the dole I see no reason for any further immigration from anywhere at present, other than a small number of carefully selected high value incomers who have jobs waiting for them.
It works fine for Canada, Australia and others and I think the empire guilt trip is well past its sell-by date.
We don't need any more waiters, cleaners, kebab shop owners or plumbers."
It's not the policy that is the problem, it is the whipping up of frenzied xenophobia which has been a pastime of papers like the Daily Mail since they first slithered off the press.
"In your own imagination, perhaps -- can't say I've noticed any
(except perhaps ongoing nastiness about Germany)."
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty 18 February 2013 4:38pm. Backlink by cifFix.
i think there is an intention to whip up frenzied xenophobia - one just has to read the trevor kavanagh article which seems dedicated to such a whipping up"
"_AT_Heretica - 'can't say I've noticed any?
SHOULD HAVE GONE TO SPECSAVERS"
_AT_bunkermad -- Come to think on it, perhaps you're right -- I'd overlooked the degree of unprovoked, bigoted hatred towards Russia there is in the UK mass-media. Guess they're appeasing the Yanks.
_AT_Heretica - You are surely joking? the Express and Mail run xenophobic stories about immigrants on a daily basis, an irrefutable fact, not a matter of opinion.
"Recently a slum was razed in Bangalore making way for a mall and the people were left homeless. The mistreatment of the people was shocking. An young girl with her toy gun says it all :
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/ejipura-residents-may-be-allowed-to-stay-on-till-academic-yearend/article4333260.ece"
"_AT_Nivedita -
Slums have no place in modern world...how could we allow our fellow humans to live in such a filthy and undignified way..
Slums must be demolished and the slum dwellers must be rehabilitated with proper housings"
"_AT_abhisheknayak -

Agree. Such houses for evacuees of another slum in the city had only three walls, no taps nor toilets. But we have lots of malls as the article says.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/278356/ragigudda-slum-dwellers-face-rodents.html"
_AT_abhisheknayak - slums eventually become much nicer organically.
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Its the new
"_AT_SquirellNut -


There's no such thing as 'new racism'. It's either racist or it isn't. So, in what way is this racist?"
"_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - The media portrayal of

Romanians is racism ."
"_AT_SquirellNut -

Don't go to sleep. Try and stay with me.
In what way is it racist?"
"_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - To portray a whole nation as populated with neer do wells on the make ..
I think that qualifies as racism.."
"_AT_SquirellNut -

It would certainly be national or probably even cultural stereotyping, but why does it necessarily have anything to do with race?"
_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - read the article .
_AT_ItsAnOutrage2 - Ha ..bigotry then ..
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"I find this a sophisticated and intelligent review of changing attitudes towards migration.
As Alana notes, culture rather than race, determines the hierarchy of good versus unwelcome immigrants. The UK is now clearly sending out messages that say, ""Indians come, Romanians stay out"" although it is the latter nationality that have inalienable rights to live and work here.
A good and thoughtful article."
_AT_LiberalHeretic - Guardian pick applauding the article even though a whole stream of posters demolish it in detail above. How’d a though it eh?
"_AT_EllisWyatt -
uncanny innit that the two picks above are in synch with the guardian world view...
loving diversity in all its forms, that's the guardian....just so long as it's not diversity of opinion."
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"_AT_LiberalHeretic -
<A good and thoughtful article>
No, a very shallow article completely failing to address the problems of large scale EU immigration and benefits entitlements in the UK."
_AT_EllisWyatt - Don't forget the silent majority.
_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - C'mon Dr John, withdraw that, the Guardian encourages and presents diverse opinion, surely that's why you read it and post here. I find your posts intelligent although I don't agree with them, please don't turn into one of the "liberal conspiracy" drones.
"_AT_MiddleEnglandLefty -
sorry, i disagree. the guardian does not present a diverse opinion.
it promotes its own world view where smiley faced immigrants come to the uk to do back breaking work for little money and it has no impact at all, whatsoever, on the uk working class (and if they complain they are clearly racists)....indeed, they all dance and sing songs together at the end of the day to 'celebrate diversity'...
...in fact, in guardianworld immigrants are even better than the wwc because they have interesting food, dances and textiles (but then, most guardian writers don't live in 'vibrant', 'diverse' areas).
i'm not a 'liberal conspiracy' type, but the guardian does (like papers on the right) promote only its own agenda and portrays all those who disagree as idiots/psychopaths/ne'erdowells (and, of course, on a thread like this, 'racists')....and it has been caught out being slapdash with the facts and figures on a number of occasions...
...you could put that down to piss poor research/journalism but, as most graun writers were educated in at least a minor public school and a jolly good university, then that seems less likely, leaving only deliberate obfuscation as the reason.
a significant number of posts on here question the levels of immigration, the sources and the type of incomer we should try to attract...but those were not reflected in the picks....funny that innit?...
...just as when a guardian staffer comes on to a thread, they never contradict the atl line...
so no, not a lib conspiracy type, but one who does question the way that things are manipulated in the guardian to make it appear that there is only one pov."
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_AT_DrJohnZoidberg - Sorry couldn't resist, but they have had articles that support limiting immigration as well, you know. They've had articles from Israeli government figures as well as Palestinian leaders, you would not see such diversity of opinion on other sites. I do live in a vibrant diverse area and I love it.
"I'm all for de-coupling immigration from race. But then, I'm not a liberal-progressive.
Liberal-progressives labour under a burden: that darker-skinned people must be afforded greater opportunities, and allowed more slack, than white-skinned people.
Litlle wonder that Cameron, that arch liberal-progressive, is so keen on ignoring the immigration cap he has elsewhere and at other times expounded, when it comes to Indians from India: they are darker skinned people, you see, and they must be afforded greater freedoms and opportunities when seeking to live in Britain, than the lighter skinned people who will be arriving from the Balkans.
That, and because liberal-progressives are temperamentally inclined towards neoliberalism: what, they ask, has race to do with it (or such whimsical concepts as culture or compatability) when faced with the opportunity to lure rich people from very far away to Britain, even as you contemplate restricting the entry of poor people from much closer to hand?
All in all, with liberal-progressives in charge in Britain, the poor people from the Balkans dont stand much of a chance, but rich people from India are obviously to be welcomed with glad cries.
Actually, race has nothing to do with it: money has everything to do with it. At which point, I find myself in agreement with the author of this piece.
Or not quite: I say No to immigration, period. Let neither monetary considerations, nor tender-hearted liberal-progressive post-cololonial guilt, have anything to do with it."
"I think the author misunderstands what is being proposed.
The immigration policy Romania and Bulgaria will face is less restrictive than that applied to India (or to the USA, for that matter - or to any non-EEA country).
The point is that it is more restrictive than is applied to the rest of the EU."
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"Unemployment amongst graduates and the young seems to be at an all time high...so would someone enlighten me regarding this article because I don't get it.
Don't call me a racist don't call me a xenophobe just enlighten me on the facts."
"_AT_brookben - Basically, technology is spreading all over the world and so is good education- in fact, we sell quite a bit of it. But, despite this spread, we are still expecting ourselves to remain much richer than the developing world. Globalisation was supposed to make our plastic crap stuff much cheaper- but now developing countries are buying up resources and so making things more expensive- hence the recent inflation. Also, developing countries are competing with us through lower wages, and we need to either be better or become cheaper like them.
So..... we look for short term fixes to remain richer. One is to invite rich people here. It doesnt really make us richer but because some of there individuals are so rich they bump up our average so we look like we are. Another is to bring in well qualified people. It doesn't make US richer, but they can do alot of the better paid jobs and since those jobs are here we again look richer. Another is to allow unqualified people here. This doesnt make us look richer and in fact brings down our average wages but on the otherhand it makes our industries more competitive and makes the owners richer.
Overall, it isn't about the young or the unemployed graduates- they don't matter to people looking at spreadsheets and trying to pay off the country's big debt. The people here who the government should be working for and trying to make better off don't come into it at all."
"_AT_Ilovecheesetoo - Our economic woes are due to the neo liberal free market. If Blair, Cameron or Miliband had any moral fibre they would insist on these countries paying a wage which is comparable to the profits being made...
If these new economic giants such as India do not resolve their poverty and low wages protectionism should be applied by boycotting their goods and services.
Too late now we have sold all our industry because that's how they wanted to destroy the working class."
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"I'm fed up with this ""brightest and best"" rhetoric from all sides. India, Romania, Germany, Ghana - they all need their brightest and best more than we do. And vice versa. That's how simple life is.
As for some portmanteau bullshit called ""xeno-racism"" - oh what irony, the moral high-ground has turned out to be a fathomless shallow."
"Trevor Kavanagh appears to confuse Roma, the much-persecuted group of Indian origin, and Romanians, the latinate people . Either that or he's dog-whistling. Not that there's any excuse for stereotyping either group.
What I don't get is why people who self-describe as libertarian, or at least anti-totalitarian can call for the free movement of money and goods but not of people, especially if the said people decline to conform to their prescribed societal norms."
"""the ability to integrate in today's Britain is based less on how you look and more on whether or not you are deemed culturally compatible.""
1. What's wrong with prioritizing people who are more culturally compatible? Our immigration policy is our immigration policy, not the immigrants'. Giving priority to people who fit in easily is important for social harmony.
2. That being said, the sentence doesn't make sense. The ""ability"" to integrate does not depend on whether you are ""deemed"" compatible. It exists independently."
_AT_NewAnglican - I agree. Left wing and socialist countries rely on social cohesion and sameness. People are happy to pay large amounts of their wages as tax, knowing that some will go to others, only so long as they feel goodwill towards those others. When countries split into separate communities this is harder to maintain.
So right. Very good piece. Our politicians are elitist and consider that anyone who hasn't got a degree to be worthless! Not surprising considering their backgrounds. And when they take advice they form a committee comprising University Professors and senior Civil Servants, who are also elitist, or at least, out of touch with 'real' life. (Disclaimer: I do understand the economic argument)
Once again I advance that the thing that is wrong with Guardian's CiF are the self-contradicting commentators whose idea of journalism is so perverse their articles are rendered illogical and deserve no merit whatsoever.
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Racism, xenophobia and bigotry are such utterly pointless pursuits. We are on a huge rock floating through the cosmos. Yet people think it's important to claim pieces of land as their own. I hope it comforts all the racist creatures on the planet that this world will keep evolving and becoming more diverse, now and long after they are pushing up daisies, despite their futile hate mongering. How pathetic to spend your one chance at life so full of hatred.
"_AT_skintightjesus - That sounds a laudable idea as long as you don't introduce racists and people who hate you into the country.
...and by the way most of last year the Guardian spent sometime explaining to the readership how racist a number of Eastern European countries are.
Who are we to believe the only racists are us of course."
_AT_skintightjesus - but the movement from where we are now to wage equalisation across the world needs managing, right?
_AT_brookben. Where in my comment do I state the only racists are us?
_AT_skintightjesus - You didn't...it wasn't aimed at you so don't take it personally...it's called irony.
"_AT_brookben. Irony would mean that the implied meaning of your statement is in opposition to its literal meaning, this doesn't really work with ""who are we to believe the only racists are us of course"" which is more a rhetorical question.
If the statement wasn't aimed at me, then the whole response should not have been posted as a reply to my original statement."
_AT_skintightjesus - Ok I will go along with rhetorical.
_AT_brookben - Actually those who hate us nowadays DON'T come from Europe. Think about it, it's not that difficult.
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_AT_Lillysid - or with a "a senior lecturer in cultural and social analysis"?
"It's simply about skin colour. It's a depressing truth about the world that most people are unable to to prevent skin colour from influencing their language, their emotions, their actions, and all too often their core beliefs.
We used to have racism. Now we have ""positive racism""."
"Dear UK residents,
Let me just say that I am a highly educated Bulgarian as I have a masters degree in economics. Above all I agree with the concerns you all have about the waves of immigrants from new EU member countries. I'd have them as well if I were you. I've lived in England for 2 years and have quite a lot of british friends who share the believe that foreigners would come and take their jobs. My point of view on the whole problem is that first of all it's highly exaggerated. Bulgaria has a population of 7 mln. so you do the maths how many would come to the UK. Second of all is that more than a quarter of all the people in an working age in Bulgaria have a higher degree of education. Compare that with the stats in India. Don't want to sound prejudice but my country has a lot of achievments in areas of science, health and countless others. I don't want people who have no idea what the country looks like or ever been here to tell others that Bulgarians are miserable pickpockets and so on. Yes we do have such a social group in our country but so do you. But we also have many great minds and hard-working young people who if given the chance will display great results in all areas of business and industry. Anyway I wish not to change anyone's opinion. I just want you to think about the fact there are around 20,000 UK citizens living permanently in Bulgaria. This shows that the country is attractive. We had a briton who raped an 8-year old in Bulgaria but we've never called all the British rapists. No on the contrary we respect you and look for the same in return. THAT'S ALL."
"_AT_Boris123 -
We know brother, some folks over here still think the Eastern Bloc is the evil empire, and you and your kin will eat our babies.
They seem to forget that the old communist countries had some of the highest standards of education anywhere.
Don't worry friend, we know when our psycho politicians are playing the divide and rule game!"
_AT_Boris123 - Well, it's a very real concern that just in the last 10 years 500,000 Poles have flocked to the UK. Unfortunately, many people who read the tabloids are too stupid to "play the ball and not the man".
"_AT_Boris123 - Was there a time Bulgarians didn't trust their government and media outlets...the media is now so distrusted in this country that you could be working for the Guardian and are British.
People can't work out what is truth what is lies."
"_AT_MediaEnema -

No, that's what you tell yourself they think as a convenient way of not bothering to try to understand viewpoints different to your own."
_AT_Boris123 - bloody good input
"_AT_Boris123 - I see where you are coming from. I invite you, and others like you, to consider making a career in my country - India. We too need the best minds in the world, to ensure that we have robust economic growth.
People from any culture find it easy to assimiliate into Indian society."
_AT_Boris123 - Well said.
Just Like the sun never set on the Empire.
_AT_MediaEnema - are you sure it's not you who doesn't realise it was all over a long time ago?
Excuse me for any spelling mistakes. believe- belief. SORRY
I get the impression that some people on here wish the headline was the other way around. Then they could really get apoplectic with rage and the Guardian could draw out the subject for weeks with numerous articles on the inherent racism of the Tory party.
"Statistically speaking, that's actually true. Indians often perform well academically, are known to work hard, and actually contribute to the economy. Leicester being a prime example of that.
Sorry that Indian and Chinese communities fall far below the Guardian's expectations of ""needy"" minority group who deserve special treatment and wrapping in cotton wool. You just can't stand the fact that some immigrant groups are more successful than others in what they bring to Britain!
This article scream of divisiveness to me, so perhaps you should reconsider calling it a hierarchy."
"It is curious how immigrants and others, including foreign criminals can get into the UK by bypassing the immigration control, and exploiting the system by declaring themselves as 'Self Employed'. Is it not curious that many, if not all 'Big Issue' sellers one sees in our High Streets are often Eastern Europeans from the Old Warzaw Pact States. So -
(a) Did they gain status as 'Big Issue sellers by claiming to be 'Self Employed, therefore ahvinga ccess to NI Cards and the UK benefits system?
(b) Where are all our own 'Big Issue' sellers?
It has been suggested that Eastern European Maffia gangs are using their own 'Big Issue' sellers as proffessional beggars. Many Big Issue sellers across the country are often old Babuskas wearing head scarves, wear long dirty, manky dresses and mumble... ""Money, Pliz, Money Plis!""
So, were our own home born 'Big Issue' sellers told to scat with threats of extreme violence by gangmasters?
The UK should apply the same immigration and work rules and permits that are currently in forces in countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United States. The UK cannot continue to be taking in more and more people. We are already an overcrowded island, and there is a fight for scarce resources. Mr Cameron and his Liberal pals are storing up future social troubles, riots and anarchy for future years."
"_AT_IGrumble - Yes, there are mostly Romanians selling The Big Issue in Ireland, no locals. Plus, if you look at the Big Issue website, it's meant to be a short-term occupation, towards getting the deposit (and paperwork) for a place to live.
There are Big Issue sellers that have been in the same corner of a street for several years and it seems to be a full-time occupation. Strange. It hides what happens to any newcomer who might need that step up too."
"_AT_IGrumble -
< Did they gain status as 'Big Issue sellers by claiming to be 'Self Employed, therefore ahvinga ccess to NI Cards and the UK benefits system?>
Well after Dec. 2013 they won't need to be Big Issue sellers to gain access to a whole range of benefits for themselves and families within a short time of arriving here.
And by the way, unlike in most other EU countries these benefits will be available without having to pay anything into the system first.
Cameron etc are now wise enough to see this is unsustainable and will make great efforts to ensure the rules for access to benefits are changed."
_AT_IGrumble - what really disappoints me is the way the guy who started up the Big Issue has no problem with this- he is happy for it to be exploited by people who aren't actually homeless, or put themselves purposefully into that position in order to take advantge of a loophole.
If you want to understand Cameron and his politics follow the money!
And besides, once before the British attempted to forge a large-scale trade alliance between Britain and India. Since that resulted in the British bleeding India dry, the idea of doing it again is going to go down really well with the Indians, isn't it!
"I say let them Chess it out.
East Europeans are good at Chess, Indians invented the game.....may the best race win.....wink wink.."
"I can't get over the condescending tone of this article. In Guardian land, ALL immigrants are the same and any differentiation between them is wrong.
If any of them do well in Britain, they lose all support from this paper who want to keep them as charity cases.
What a bitter and resentful commentary. You just can't stand the fact that Indians in Britain do integrate well into society and don't overburden public services, etc/"
NTEightySix were you reading a different article to me?
In fairness, they could lose Eastleigh because of their candidate. She made some noises about the EU, but all the other things she said are now well documented.
"skilled migrants??? - excuse me but the Indian's who will come to the UK are not skilled - they are looking to pay very high fees to get skilled and then look for a job in the UK or other countries but not India - so in that case are opening doors for potential.
I don't think this policy works. Only need to travel into North West London and meet many of these students who are registered on courses and meet many that have graduated and doing work that is the opposite of their qualifications.
Also - not all the Indians who arrive here in the UK are self funded. Many take loans at extoronist rates on the off-chance that they can better themselves. What it does is to wield a double edge sword - against the families parents who are left behind to pick up the pieces when payments are due as well as draining India of educated talent.
Add to this what must go through the minds of Pakistani's and other South Asian groups in the UK who see and uneven handed policy. Pakistani's of recent have started perform well but will this Govt. ever open its doors to the mass of Pakistani youth wanting to come to the UK?
And how does Indian youth with degrees compete with English youth with degrees - I just see a volume of disenchanted, wasted young talent piled more onto our ""wasted youth mountain"" by a Government who's very core principle has been never to fund investment in youth but in cheap labour."
Cameron's gushing in praise of Indians wouldn't have anything to do with the massive outsource to India of data-processing (medical records, benefits etc.) his government intends to do -- almost certainly for ulterior motives -- instead of employing the population of Britain, would it?
Will somebody please explain to this delusional dumb twit that he is supposed to be running a country not a corporation. That is for the benefit of the citizens not for the profit of individuals.
Skills are only part of the equation. Integrity and diligence are even more important, especially integrity.
"_AT_Exodus20 -

Nah, that's bigoted. Jobs should go to the person who is best able to do them, nothing else matters.
I'm of the opinion that immigration debates should be shoved into the population sphere. If you said ""the UK's pretty-much full - boosting the population will lower quality of life for everyone"" I'd agree."
"_AT_Groundbreaker -
Racial favourtism is racism and apartheid."
Yep, and all those things are bad. Which is why I vehemently oppose them.
"It's not simply a matter of Indian immigrants good, Romanian and Bulgarian ones bad. We have immigration controls with India, which puts us in a better position to ensure that we only get . Immigration from Romania and Bulgaria will be unrestricted, meaning that we won't be able to prevent the entry of the dregs of their societies.
All the more reason to get out of the EU."
"_AT_TheGreatCucumber - perhaps you feel entitled to

or perhaps not, I don't know. However India almost certainly needs them more than we do."
"_AT_FoundThePlot -
It's got nothing to do with entitlement. These people aren't India's property, they're free to go where they please. Most likely, an educated professional Indian who's wants to emigrate won't change their mind if they can't get into the UK, they will probably just go to some other western country."
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"No... just no. I stopped reading the article at this point. Including this line arguable discredits you enough to make whatever your write here irrelevant.
If anything, the number of poor people have decreased since our neoliberalism kicked off in 90s. If anything, our socialist policies and 97% income tax from 50s to 80s is largely to blame for us having our growth phase now rather than 40 years ago. We could have been a developed country by now like South Korea and Taiwan had our post independence leaders not been enthralled by stupid socialist ideas that don't really work in a country which has no industry, low literacy, no service sector and no natural resources."
"_AT_Chinmay -
Come on Chinmay, stop fooling yourself by believing in what your political elite keep harping. In absolute numbers, the number of poor people has increased in India much more than what it was, say, 30 years ago.
You may say it was 80% 30 years ago but now it is only 30%. Convert this into absolute values."
"_AT_Jellybaby1 -

What's your point? Globalisation doesn't lower birth rates (although I wish it did)"
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"_AT_Jellybaby1 -

In order for 30% of current population to be equal to 80% of the population 30 years ago, the population of India should have increased by 166% over past 30 years. Even in India we don't have this much population growth... so no, I stick by my statement, the number has decreased."
"It is not that the govt. is rolling the red carpet out to all Indians.
Only to professionals, students with lots of dough to spare, investors...
Has been going on for some time. These set of people can take their pick from a whole bunch of developed countries. And the UK is just one of them. Recently some Canadian minister was in India welcoming these same set of people as immigrants.
And I am sure a Pakistani, Romanian or Bulgarian professional, rich student or investor will be equally welcome.
Money talks, baby."
"What's this 'Daily Mail' people keep mentioning? It sounds like it's the right-hand end of the spectrum of blinkered preconceptions whose left-hand end is the Guardian. Should I be reading it as well so as to arrive at a balanced view of current events?
Or is there a genuinely non-aligned British national newspaper that deals in fact not opinion pretending to be fact? (Please don't suggest The Scotsman - someone already did that, I think after reading it they must have been joking.)"
_AT_MyfanwyDR - have you tried the daily sport ? very ballanced
"_AT_MyfanwyDR - reading the Guardian and the Daily Mail for political balance is like trying to keep your brain on an even keel by taking uppers and downers at the same time.
The Guardian used to believe that its role was to report the facts objectively and give a platform to a broad spectrum of voices but that was a long time ago now. The best thing to do is to stick with one main paper so you get used to its angle of bias, read other versions of the news stories to see if there's any consensus and rigorously check everything that seems to pat to be true using the Internet.
Oh, and under no circumstances consult the Daily Express."
"_AT_septicemias - thank you for the suggestion, but my interest in reading about sport is very limited! I enjoy chess, did a lot of french cricket and netball when I was younger, and I took up shooting a few years ago when I started getting migraines. But sports journalism seems to me to sum up what's wrong with most journalism, celebrity-obsessed, only interested in scandals, violence and the size of players' packets. And when you stop to analyse it most sports writing is as flowery and falsely orgasmic as a Mills & Boon ladies' eroticum - a sort of sad lads' chicklit I suppose.
But thanks for the thought!"
_AT_MickGJ - Useful advice! And don't worry - I've seen the Express front pages plenty of times. It seems obsessed with bad weather. Life is bad enough without constantly being told we're on the verge of Britain's worst weather since, oh, the last worst ever weather they'd forecast. It didn't happen then, either, but if you read too much of this stuff you can't help feeling that the law of averages means one day they'll get it right. A recipe for depression!
"I'm still waiting for someone to make the point, so I suppose I'll have to.

Not every person from India is a skilled person or professional.
Not every person from Eastern Europe isn't.
The way people talk it's as though they expect Eastern Europeans to sit around in crumbling farmhouses dreaming of one day doing some ones guttering in Plaistow, as opposed to coming often from huge cities with power stations, hospitals, tube systems, and frequently being highly educated."
"Just as 30 years ago many people apparently thought that an Indian person must dream of working in a shop or a restaurant, as opposed, for example being able to be an Engineer or a GP. Now they've been patched up by one or have got to know another they're embarrassed about that.
Give it a few years and these lazy attitudes about Eastern Europe will fade as well, if not because of logic, at least under sheer weight of evidence."
_AT_Vraaak - It is not lazy attitudes that mean people criticise Eastern European migrants, it is the fact we have no controls. The unskilled, people with convictions, the seriously ill and the chronically poor cannot get from India to the UK as they cannot get visas. Unfortunately, anyone can come from Eastern Europe to the UK. This means we get a lot more crap coming in with the better migrants. If we had a proper migration system then we could limit our migrants to precisely what this country needs.
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"_AT_poppy23 - I bet certain people are delighted now.
Not been allowed to say bad things about or Asian black people in public for how many decades? Oh look, now you've got half a continent to say things about like ""This means we get a lot more crap coming in with the better migrants""
Yeah, the most cowardly racists and xenophobes are coming out of the woodwork and disguising it as concern for this or a prognosis of that.
And that's exactly what you sound like."
"_AT_Vraaak -
What exactly are you griping about, and what do you want?"
"_AT_Vraaak - A rather lazy insult without any real evidence or point. I am pretty sure that others on this website will confirm that I am happy to go way out on a limb from mainstream opinion, if it is my actual viewpoint.
Immigration has nothing to do with race and everything to do with character, skills and resources. There will hopefully be a time again soon when we need migrant Labour, but in very few trades is that the case today.
When we do require migrant Labour again, I would say we have a system like the Australians that favours English speakers and those with specific trades, whilst blocking people with criminal records. I don't care if the migrants come from Poland or Peru, as long as they are all judged equally. At no point would I support an open border policy, even if we needed large scale inward migration. It is utterly foolish to abolish your ability to control such an important issue.
That is my viewpoint and you can choose to believe me or not."
"_AT_Vraaak -
<Not every person from India is a skilled person or professional.
Not every person from Eastern Europe isn't.>
Why waste your time making these points.
'EVERY' ?????
Who is saying that????"
_AT_poppy23 - Although still a little blinkered, this is a better proposition than outright refusal of all immigrants based on their nationality or even worse exit from EU which is pure folly.
_AT_poppy23 - Well, put that way your view sounds a lot more sensible - thankyou for taking the time to explain
_AT_Heretica - Freedom, democracy, cup cakes, and crumbly candy bars.
There is a clear difference. We can control which individuals come in from India, but we cannot control who we get from Eastern Europe. As a result we get a far greater proportion of Eastern Europeans we do not want. Introduce one set of immigration rules for everyone and we can start attracting people from all areas with the same level of enthusiasm.
Perplexing to see a sovereign country like Britain give up her rights to allow / deny people entry into the country. Isn't one criteria for an independent nation the control of its borders and granting of citizenship rights? Britain should change its name back to Britannia, after all, it has returned to being a mere province of a reborn Roman Empire. From provincialism it was born, to provincialism it has returned it would seem.
_AT_HoolyK - yes the first thing they got rid of was the Britannia emblem on the coins, old mother brown done that
Why the persistent delusion that nothing worthwhile existed before the Romans -- is it the result of brainwashing by a public-school dominated Establishment that yearns to kiss the arse of imperial Rome?
_AT_Heretica - Britons took pan European Celtic art to its highest heights. This was pre-Roman, and it is believed by many to still be our great contribution to world art. Even greater, would you believe, than that of Tracey Emin herself......
All immigrants are bad until we can build more schools, hospitals, houses, wider roads, taller trains.
_AT_josolsey - .....and we are able to offset all our carbon emissions with our own trees and plants.
"What are you trying to say ? that Indians are hard working ? the answer is yes they are .they are ambitious for their children and don't stop until they succeed .
i shell say no more on the subject,
think what you like"
"Contentious skulduggery. Nothing like stirring the pot. Can't you tell the difference between a moral principal and the financial panic of country that is willing to sell the family silver to maintain an overblown political system that is merely self-serving. When you talk about Indians or Romanians which ones do you mean? It is to the credit of Australia that if they have an ex-pat that has committed an atrocious crime they can ship them back to Blighty without public trauma. However, we are expected to hug to our bosom anyone who fetches up at our door and then to maintain them no matter who they turnout to be.
The British have the CRB, they have the impositions of their class system, they have accents and regionalism, all things that can and are used to differentiate them in the jobs market and socially, and yet we are expected to guarantee a warm welcome to those from failing cultures and deeply stigmatised societies who can have any identity that they can buy and who, once in Britain, can conveniently forget their country of origin, their names and crimes (and yet who slack journalism and blanket attribution only see as foreign and therefore in need of the protection of rampant socialists who would have their country undermined sooner than admit to a logical prejudice).
Who is this Romanian that you offer as the eternal face of being Romania? Who is that iconic Indian? Do either of them come from societies whose mass can be regarded as beyond sin or beyond cunning? What is their skill? What is their hold on us? Why should any of them, bar the minority, represent anything other then social problems for Britain; look around, we can hardly cope with the people we have got.
We are at that stage where prejudice has handed over to 'pro-judice'. In fear and trembling of seeming opposed to any convoluted sort of humanity the standard response is that questioning the actual purpose is beyond discussion. That there are those that plead on behalf of a mass who individually may have little or no provenance seems to be bred of a desire to cut off one's nose to spite one's face. It smells of prejudice against some other political entity rather than actual understanding.
While there is that folk image of Liverpudlians as scally's and not to be trusted around your belongings, the un-kowable Romanian will be allowed free access until they prove otherwise and the uncharacterised Indian ditto. We love a stereotype don't we? We know who the Huguenots were. We knew their skill and Ireland benefited from both while satisfying a humanitarian need and a religious affiliation. In their industry and skill they were a benefit to Irish society. Yet this advantage was somewhat ameliorated by their Calvinism which made them inclined to oppose the catholic society of Ireland and actually saw them fight with William of Orange in the service of their faith. Some might say that such migration proved to be divisive and upset a natural balances of evolution, rather like introducing Coypus to Norfolk and only finding out at your leisure that such animals are entirely unsuited to the local ecology.
The demand for more of any 'others' is entirely irrational on the grounds of humanitarianism, absolutely insupportable. It will appeal to the minorities whom they represent as weight in their favour, further potential for division. It is a place where sentiment alone cannot reign supreme because of the definite affect on the outcomes in such massive displacements. If the EU wanted to prove that there is only Europeans and not races then they could have not set out to destroy the difference more effectively.
There is little other purpose in what is being undertaken. Where Germany had her 'foreigners' paid for by the whole of the European community at the reunification, a totally paid for currency scam, we are asked to pay for this coming together ourselves in a society that spends £3 a day on hospital meals, where the roads are falling apart, where jobs are being lost because of budget malaise. That any of those gaining access to Britain can offer a positive change to our dilemma is purely speculation but when a State is panicking in the transparent way that this one is who cares?
Anything can be suggested and anything accepted in a nation of supine individuals who are conditioned to think that to speak their minds is dangerous, subversive, as it might upset someone; or where the British sense of fair play which nowadays only seems to be referred to in respect of the contentious immigration issue and even then, as this matter has not been mentioned in any national election, is just an attribution and not a fact."
"_AT_EuropeanOnion -- Establishment-franchise political Parties don't want such matters freely discussed ... to their leaders and ideologues, seeing themselves as part of the Overclass, everyone of lesser status on the entire planet is disposably equal.
A fatal mistake the British public have long made is deluding itself that those who rule feel any sense of responsibility towards the British population or even the country itself. They don't, nowadays it's the corporate-USA (ie. not the USA of ordinary Americans) to which they' have allegiance, though for some the NWO's branch office in Brussels is always useful as a gravy train."
Yet more stereotyping!
I believe that Cameron is being pragmatic and looking after British short term and long term benefits . He know that Eastern Europe cannot provide as huge a market as India. When he talking about welcoming Indians he is not talking about poor, huddled and oppressed masses in india. He is targeting English speaking, technically savvy, highly educated young people who will bring economic value to the British system .  He wants to hitch the wagon to galloping horse. He is serving national interests, nothing more and nothing less
So why would intelligent, well-educated In